With HRT is less More???

[PistolPete33]

I read on here all the time that most people are on 100mg/Test C weekly. I know other doctors are treating at much higher dosages and I was curious why to keep the levels lower? Is this simply to keep E2 levels lower or are there other benefits? Obviously, being on a higher dose will require an AI but what's the issue with taking one anyways? I would think being on a higher dose and keeping everything else in check would amount to better results?

Thanks,
Pete

[kelkel]

Simply put yes, less is more. TRT is for the long term. The less you can get by with as long as your feel good and your numbers are in the ball park (to the extent numbers matter) is the optimum way to go. People do different doses as we all metabolize test differently. 100mg per week may put me at a 1000 T level. Another person, same dose may only reach 600. Then that is balanced with free T and E2 and the rest of your blood work.

It is a process that requires serious attention for a period of time to learn your bodies responsiveness to the compounds as well as the ancillaries that may go along with them. Your body searches for balance, homeostasis, all the time. When it comes to AI's the long term effects are still pretty much unknown. Even though the dosages taken here are usually very low, you're always better off with not doing an AI if possible. It just makes sense. The more T philosophy is basically for cycling purposes, which is fine if that is what you choose to do. The benefit to TRT is that if you do cycle no pct is required. But when it comes to just TRT it is about long term health and longevity and with optimized T levels you can make great gains. If your not then the fault is nutrition and exercise, nothing more.

So, the more is better mantra does not apply in this world!

[HRTstudent]

Every doctor who posts online and is respected in the industry and I've read says that their cutoff for TRT is 200mg per week. Dr Mark Gordons might be any less.

But the point is, beyond 200mg per week and you're looking at some other medical condition rather than simply low T.

Do not be fooled that just because lots of people are "prescribed" more than 200mg per week that it is smart, healthy, or best for you. If someone posts they are prescribed TRT at over 200mg per week I am 99.9999% positive they are going to a "pill mill."

[APIs]

Every doctor who posts online and is respected in the industry and I've read says that their cutoff for TRT is 200mg per week. Dr Mark Gordons might be any less.

But the point is, beyond 200mg per week and you're looking at some other medical condition rather than simply low T.

Do not be fooled that just because lots of people are "prescribed" more than 200mg per week that it is smart, healthy, or best for you. If someone posts they are prescribed TRT at over 200mg per week I am 99.9999% positive they are going to a "pill mill."

I seem to remember there was one fellow on here taking well in excess of 200 mgs/week. I recall he metabolized the hell out of it or something along those lines. Havent seen him in about a year otherwise I might recall who he was...

[brazilian86]

I am at 200mgs cypionate but I doubt it really is that much, I think more like 185mgs or so... Gets me at around 1060 level testosterone . Plus hcg 250iu twice a week and 1.50mgs arimidex a week.
Plus HGH about amonth ago, tev tropin 2.5 iu daily.

[ctenosaura]

Simply put yes, less is more. TRT is for the long term. The less you can get by with as long as your feel good and your numbers are in the ball park (to the extent numbers matter) is the optimum way to go. People do different doses as we all metabolize test differently. 100mg per week may put me at a 1000 T level. Another person, same dose may only reach 600. Then that is balanced with free T and E2 and the rest of your blood work.

It is a process that requires serious attention for a period of time to learn your bodies responsiveness to the compounds as well as the ancillaries that may go along with them. Your body searches for balance, homeostasis, all the time. When it comes to AI's the long term effects are still pretty much unknown. Even though the dosages taken here are usually very low, you're always better off with not doing an AI if possible. It just makes sense. The more T philosophy is basically for cycling purposes, which is fine if that is what you choose to do. The benefit to TRT is that if you do cycle no pct is required. But when it comes to just TRT it is about long term health and longevity and with optimized T levels you can make great gains. If your not then the fault is nutrition and exercise, nothing more.

So, the more is better mantra does not apply in this world!

Very well said

[HRTstudent]

I seem to remember there was one fellow on here taking well in excess of 200 mgs/week. I recall he metabolized the hell out of it or something along those lines. Havent seen him in about a year otherwise I might recall who he was...

I leave the .00001% because I don't doubt that there may be a rare medical instance in which the person simply needs a lot of T.

I wouldn't recommend people think they are that rare though . Usually something around 80-120mg per week gets the job done, especially if you split it up.

[kelkel]

I am at 200mgs cypionate but I doubt it really is that much, I think more like 185mgs or so... Gets me at around 1060 level testosterone . Plus hcg 250iu twice a week and 1.50mgs arimidex a week.
Plus HGH about amonth ago, tev tropin 2.5 iu daily.

What's your Free T and E2 levels running at? Reason I ask is that's a whopper of an amount of adex. Hell, average cycle of 500mg per week is only .25mg eod.

[Rusty11]

No. More is not better. I know from personal experience. Sure, your physique may respond well to higher doses, but chances are you won't feel any better. High e2, lower sex drive, anxiousness are just a few of the problems that may occur. And, for cripes sake, search threads titled "crashed my e2". Once a week someone posts a thread about how they took an ai WITHOUT PROPER BLOODWORK and wonder why/how their e2 could have crashed.
If your doing proper bw, then good for you. But as kel said, thats a lot of adex.

[HRTstudent]

Once a week someone posts about it... but I am confident it happens daily with anastrozole use

Anyways, its a bit off topic, but I know Dr Mark Gordon has said if you use an AI you're on too much T. I'm starting to think that might be the best approach...

Higher frequency, smaller shots, gradually lowering the dose has allowed me to lower my previously high AI use.

[PistolPete33]

The reason I asked this is because I'm currently taking 200mg/week of Test C. I am taking an AI twice per week on Monday and Thursday. I split my injections up on Saturday morning and Tuesday nights. I take HCG on the day prior to injection and I just started HRT about 6 weeks ago. I'm feeling awesome and was told that I will have more bloodwork drawn in another 3-4 weeks and then my numbers most likely will change and my dosage lowered. My only concern would be if they lower me down to half what I'm taking will I no longer feel this great or might I feel even better. My Dr. did say that the first year or so is a lot of trial and error and tweaking to get optimal ranges with regards to both bloodwork and how I feel etc.

[HRTstudent]

That is all true.

If your doctor ultimately cares most about how you feel (and not just the numbers) then I would not worry about anything at all.

If I had to guess, I'd say you could feel just as good or better at a lower dose, and you'd then be able to lower your AI or even come off perhaps. That would be a pretty good positive IMO.

[SEOINAGE]

Simply put yes, less is more. TRT is for the long term. The less you can get by with as long as your feel good and your numbers are in the ball park (to the extent numbers matter) is the optimum way to go. People do different doses as we all metabolize test differently. 100mg per week may put me at a 1000 T level. Another person, same dose may only reach 600. Then that is balanced with free T and E2 and the rest of your blood work.

It is a process that requires serious attention for a period of time to learn your bodies responsiveness to the compounds as well as the ancillaries that may go along with them. Your body searches for balance, homeostasis, all the time. When it comes to AI's the long term effects are still pretty much unknown. Even though the dosages taken here are usually very low, you're always better off with not doing an AI if possible. It just makes sense. The more T philosophy is basically for cycling purposes, which is fine if that is what you choose to do. The benefit to TRT is that if you do cycle no pct is required. But when it comes to just TRT it is about long term health and longevity and with optimized T levels you can make great gains. If your not then the fault is nutrition and exercise, nothing more.

So, the more is better mantra does not apply in this world!

This is a good response. It is why I can be on 200 mg a week without an AI and produce test numbers of 800, and that is still a proper dose.

It usually is better for a doctor to start you lower, I was started at 100 mg, but the doc was way too conservative about adjusting levels and I was feeling awful by the time my next shot came. There have been some good posts and links about effects on dopamine levels, basically to the effect that even if you didn't change your dose eventually you will have a decline in your perception in well being. I would use numbers from lab results to get you dialed in, and then give it some time and then assess how you feel, because you might have some ups and downs and attribute it to something that really didn't cause it.

[junk2222yard]

I was just listening to a podcast that mentioned this issue yesterday. Dr.Crisler mentioned to Carl Lenore (from Superhuman Radio) that it is not uncommon to have HRT guys that feel great just above 500 Total Test, and then when it is pushed higher, they start having sex issues (ED or crappy orgasms or loss of libido).

[brazilian86]

I am at .5mg of AI now. It stays within 35 range. Not high or too low. My body responds well to 200mg test c. So goes with other meds, Metabolizes different than others since I have Chrons disease.
I will post my results soon since I am doing another blood work on Monday, i wanna see where my igf1 is, been on HGH for a month now 2.5iu 6/7days.

[brazilian86]

Adding Trenbolone Acetate to my protocol for a mini blast,lets say 8 weeks 300mgs... Good?

[LevMyshkin]

I just got my BW back this week for my quarterly follow up.

150mg/week here and only .25mg Arimidex per week. Even with a dose of that, my total test one week post injection is at 482.

Now, a buddy of mine is on 150mg/week as well, but his total test came back at 787 one week post injection. Go fig. Likewise, his estrogen was in the high 40's on .25 Adex/week whereas I'm sitting at 21. His dose is probably a little high whereas it's pretty much spot on for me.

I think the point for all of this is that TRT is for physiological doses; to mimic what the body should have if it's in it's optimal state. For some people that's 80mg/week. For others, it's more.

[AnabolicDoc]

Simply put yes, less is more. TRT is for the long term. The less you can get by with as long as your feel good and your numbers are in the ball park (to the extent numbers matter) is the optimum way to go. People do different doses as we all metabolize test differently. 100mg per week may put me at a 1000 T level. Another person, same dose may only reach 600. Then that is balanced with free T and E2 and the rest of your blood work.

It is a process that requires serious attention for a period of time to learn your bodies responsiveness to the compounds as well as the ancillaries that may go along with them. Your body searches for balance, homeostasis, all the time. When it comes to AI's the long term effects are still pretty much unknown. Even though the dosages taken here are usually very low, you're always better off with not doing an AI if possible. It just makes sense. The more T philosophy is basically for cycling purposes, which is fine if that is what you choose to do. The benefit to TRT is that if you do cycle no pct is required. But when it comes to just TRT it is about long term health and longevity and with optimized T levels you can make great gains. If your not then the fault is nutrition and exercise, nothing more.

So, the more is better mantra does not apply in this world!

Nicely stated. Many ppl are on TRT to feel better, or younger so to speak. But there are legitimate medical benefits to treating low testosterone levels , which are decreased coronary disease, improved glycemic control, decreased body fat and increased lean body mass just to name a few.

Levels of T that are too high are associated with undesirable health outcomes, such as enlarged prostate or prostate cancer, liver disease (peliosis hepatis) and liver cancer, and heart muscle damage (cardiomyopathy) for instance.

I think kelkel hit the nail on the head - it's about optimization of testosterone levels, not just to increase them.

[AnabolicDoc]

I just got my BW back this week for my quarterly follow up.

150mg/week here and only .25mg Arimidex per week. Even with a dose of that, my total test one week post injection is at 482.

Now, a buddy of mine is on 150mg/week as well, but his total test came back at 787 one week post injection. Go fig. Likewise, his estrogen was in the high 40's on .25 Adex/week whereas I'm sitting at 21. His dose is probably a little high whereas it's pretty much spot on for me.

I think the point for all of this is that TRT is for physiological doses; to mimic what the body should have if it's in it's optimal state. For some people that's 80mg/week. For others, it's more.

When on TRT, it's ideal to have your levels checked as close as possible to the halfway point between injections. So if your taking 150mg/wk and had your levels checked just before your next injection (a week after your last injection), the level you are measuring is the your minimum level for the week rather than your average weekly level. It would be best to check your levels 3 to 4 days after your previous injection.

[HRTstudent]

I just got my BW back this week for my quarterly follow up.

150mg/week here and only .25mg Arimidex per week. Even with a dose of that, my total test one week post injection is at 482.

Now, a buddy of mine is on 150mg/week as well, but his total test came back at 787 one week post injection. Go fig. Likewise, his estrogen was in the high 40's on .25 Adex/week whereas I'm sitting at 21. His dose is probably a little high whereas it's pretty much spot on for me.

I think the point for all of this is that TRT is for physiological doses; to mimic what the body should have if it's in it's optimal state. For some people that's 80mg/week. For others, it's more.

Have you tried splitting the dose into twice a week?

150mg is a pretty heft dose, and you are no doubt going above range for a couple days and then dropping off. Its just a matter that you metabolize the T faster than your friend might...

[asiandudexxx]

Is the subjective symptom alleviation point different in Test injection vs other forms of treatment? Everyone says they feel great at 800 ish but when I was on hCG I felt best when my levels came back astronomically high (1700 TT ng/dL, 210.7 pg/dL FT; both in large excess of the reference ranges).

[LevMyshkin]

Have you tried splitting the dose into twice a week?

150mg is a pretty heft dose, and you are no doubt going above range for a couple days and then dropping off. Its just a matter that you metabolize the T faster than your friend might...

No can do on splitting the injections. If I could, I would. My clinic doesn't allow for self injection and I can't find one that does that will also take my insurance. So, I have to truck in once/week for a shot.

[LevMyshkin]

When on TRT, it's ideal to have your levels checked as close as possible to the halfway point between injections. So if your taking 150mg/wk and had your levels checked just before your next injection (a week after your last injection), the level you are measuring is the your minimum level for the week rather than your average weekly level. It would be best to check your levels 3 to 4 days after your previous injection.

I thought the half life of Test-C was about 7-10 days so one week post injection would mean that I had half the test still present. So, with a 7 day half life, wouldn't just before my next shot be the half way point until the full dosage amount were out of my body???

[AnabolicDoc]

The half life of Test C is closer to14 days, but that's not the issue. You want to know how much the average level is in your body. To do that you have to check levels midway in between injections. When you check just before your next injection, that's the lowest your level is all week.

[kelkel]

Is the subjective symptom alleviation point different in Test injection vs other forms of treatment? Everyone says they feel great at 800 ish but when I was on hCG I felt best when my levels came back astronomically high (1700 TT ng/dL, 210.7 pg/dL FT; both in large excess of the reference ranges).

I'm sure you did feel good. But consider that eventually that feeling diminishes, especially if other issues arise like the doc mentioned previously. Remember this is about your long-term health.

[flyrs]

Brazilian, have you tried LDN Low Dose Naltrexone for the Crohns?

[Vettester]

The half life of Test C is closer to14 days, but that's not the issue.

You mean 7 days right? 14 to 15 days is full life.

[HRTstudent]

Is the subjective symptom alleviation point different in Test injection vs other forms of treatment? Everyone says they feel great at 800 ish but when I was on hCG I felt best when my levels came back astronomically high (1700 TT ng/dL, 210.7 pg/dL FT; both in large excess of the reference ranges).

The counterintuitive conclusion that many leading docs have come to is that when it comes to HCG and clomid that many men, despite good T levels, do not get the same subjective improvement that they get on testosterone injects/transdermals.

We (medicine) simply don't know why this is, but it's been reported numerous times from numerous experts in HRT.

[AnabolicDoc]

You mean 7 days right? 14 to 15 days is full life.

Sorry, you're correct. Thank you for pointing that out. The half life of Test C when injected into the glute is about 7 to 8 days (depending on source). The general rule is that the full life of a drug is 4 to 5 half lives - that is for about 95% of the drug to leave your body. But it seems to be generally accepted that the therapeutic life of Test C is about 14 days.

But, just a reminder to the OP: this doesn't change the fact that to get an accurate idea of your average Test levels, you want to check midway bw injections. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to also know what your peak and trough values are, but these are generally not tested as regularly as the midpoint (or median) value.

[AnabolicDoc]

The counterintuitive conclusion that many leading docs have come to is that when it comes to HCG and clomid that many men, despite good T levels, do not get the same subjective improvement that they get on testosterone injects/transdermals.

We (medicine) simply don't know why this is, but it's been reported numerous times from numerous experts in HRT.

That's very interesting. There's no doubt that you can reach much higher Test levels with exogenous test than with clomid/hCG. Do you think that's th reason for the subjective difference? Bc these days it seems that a lot of ppl on Test are treated to about 1000, if not higher. Whereas, when given Clomid/hCG ppl are just treated to "normal".

[brazilian86]

Brazilian, have you tried LDN Low Dose Naltrexone for the Crohns?

No i have not. Havent even heard ofthat

[fireeater49]

When on TRT, it's ideal to have your levels checked as close as possible to the halfway point between injections. So if your taking 150mg/wk and had your levels checked just before your next injection (a week after your last injection), the level you are measuring is the your minimum level for the week rather than your average weekly level. It would be best to check your levels 3 to 4 days after your previous injection.

I agree but with the non self pinners its another freaking office visit charge and then come back in 2-3 days for your charged shot..............With that said, I agree with you that what you stated is the best method overall.

[Renholder]

I've been feeling the worst when my testosterone levels were in the 1200 ng/dl, but that could very well be due to elevated E2 as well.

I also have low SHBG (another factor), which gave me free testosterone off the charts and way above range. So for me, more is certainly not more.

[HRTstudent]

That's very interesting. There's no doubt that you can reach much higher Test levels with exogenous test than with clomid/hCG. Do you think that's th reason for the subjective difference? Bc these days it seems that a lot of ppl on Test are treated to about 1000, if not higher. Whereas, when given Clomid/hCG ppl are just treated to "normal".

They actually were comparing the same testosterone levels , but it was simply the source HCG vs T creams/injects that mattered. This wasnt the case for everyone, but it is rather common. We don't know why it is, but there are some loose theories.

[PistolPete33]

If someone cuts their dose in half how will they typically feel? I ask because I'm currently taking 200mg/week and feel AWESOME. My training has been insane and I'm making huge gains, leaning out, getting stronger, having more energy etc. My mood is awesome and my sex life is at an all time high. I'm thinking of cutting my dose in half but don't want to lose the gains I'm making.

[HRTstudent]

If I felt AWESOME and my doctor was closely monitoring me and making sure everything was good and healthy, then I would be hesitant to change anything... but that's just me.

On the other hand, if side effects had to be heavily controlled or were creeping out of safe territory then I would re-evaluate the program.

[junk2222yard]

If someone cuts their dose in half how will they typically feel? I ask because I'm currently taking 200mg/week and feel AWESOME. My training has been insane and I'm making huge gains, leaning out, getting stronger, having more energy etc. My mood is awesome and my sex life is at an all time high. I'm thinking of cutting my dose in half but don't want to lose the gains I'm making.

Hmm... you currently have another thread, started today, mentioning "tightness in [your] chest" and "not sleeping at all since starting TRT"? So saying here you feel awesome seems illogical, or at least inconsistant?

Not trying to be a jerk, I am just confused and wondering if you are getting caught up in "selective memory" because you are so happy about your gains?

[PistolPete33]

I feel awesome with regards to my workouts and my mood etc. The sleeping issue may or may not be related to the HRT as I did just move at the beginning of Jan so it could be that I can't sleep in a new place? Lots of moving parts for sure but I'm no longer moody as I was before starting HRT, my workouts are going great, my bodyfat is rapidly dropping, my sexdrive is at a major high.

I know a lot of getting HRT dialed in is trial and error and I'm trying to learn as much as I can. I'm going to contact my Dr. tomorrow and get a script to have blood drawn so I can take care of it this week to see what's going on.

[kelkel]

Pete try cutting down by 1/4 for now. Slow titrations. Adjust your AI accordingly.

[steroid.com 1]

No can do on splitting the injections. If I could, I would. My clinic doesn't allow for self injection and I can't find one that does that will also take my insurance. So, I have to truck in once/week for a shot.

See www.lowtestosterone.com

They have offices in Texas and will put you on a self injected protocol and will give you the insurance codes to submit your claim to your company. See the banner at the top of the site.