Aromasin or Arimidex

[ctenosaura]

I didn't want to hijack a previous thread so I'll ask this in a new one.
In another post I asked this question "If I have to take an AI, and had to choose from Arimidex or Aromasin , why would I choose from the other?"

The answer I got: "aromasin is a suicidial AI. To lower E2 it kills the aromatase.

Arimidex is binds to aromatase rendering it inert. However, when you stop taking/or reduce your dose, the aromatase that was bound up now becomes active again.

The problem with that is that you end up with a flood of E2 that is hard to control. However, with Aromasin -because it kills the aromatase- you don't get that rebound/flood of E2. Your E2 just slowly raisese back up as your body starts producing more aromatase."

So by what I read, it sounds like Aromasin would be a better choice. Am I wrong because from what I've read, a lot of people here are taking Arimidex.

I will be getting my blood work results in a few days and just want to be prepared because I have a hunch I will need an AI due to my nipples hurting and seemingly a little enlarged (not like gyno) especially when its cold.

Thanks!

[jimmyinkedup]

My first try would be aromasin . I say try because I had a difficult time managing e with aromasin for some reason - just couldnt dial it in. Dex Ive had down for years.

[MickeyKnox]

Im no mind reader, but occasionally i think i can..lol

[jimmyinkedup]

..

Hey Mick good to see You. Let me clarify. I WOULD use aromasin if i could get it dialed in properly so if I were new user id try that first. Second choice would be arimidex .

[austinite]

I prefer adex as it acts faster. Aromasin is stronger (be cautious with it), a suicide inhibitor and takes a week or so to get serum evels up.

[MickeyKnox]

Ahhh i see. Ok man, my apologies. The way it read appeared as though you meant Dex. Sorry brother, was trying to help. I'll adjust my post.

Thanks.

[jimmyinkedup]

Ahhh i see. Ok man, my apologies. The way it read appeared as though you meant Dex. Sorry brother, was trying to help. I'll adjust my post.

Thanks.

NP Mick - I was kind of contradictory man. Im glad you posted so I could clear up my thoughts so they may make sense to others and not just me! lol

[lacey23]

I was the one who wrote that. If you can dose arimidex , great. Don't change what isn't broken.

But, a lot of guys seem to have trouble with E2 rebound, and a rollercoaster feeling with Arimidex, and from what I have seen those guys prefer Aromasin . Also, it can take about a month to get to stable blood levels of Arimidex.

Aromasin otoh has a 9 hour half life. But, because it kills aromatase, and you have to wait for it to regenerate, the E2 suppresion half life is closer to 48 hour. After 120 hours you are back to whatever E2 level you are normally at, if you never taken Aromasin.

So, imo it is a lot easier to get the correct dose because of those reasons. After a week on a dose you are pretty much stable, instead of having to wait a month (like arimidex). And, if you do crash your E2, it is a lot easier to transition to a new dose (as there is no rebound effect). So, you can tell if it is the correct dose a lot quicker without having to deal with rebound effect, and having to wait another month for the new dose to stabalize.

[HRTstudent]

When I read a lot of what people write about the mechanisms of certain aromatase inhibitors, I often feel dismayed. Often the people saying it do not know what they are saying. But more often than not, the people reading it, extrapolate certain things based on a very limited amount of info in an area they have no expertise.

What am I saying? Well, I guess what my overarching point would be is this... we don't really know the long term consequences of men being on an AI are. It's probably best not to be on one at all. If you had to go on one, whether its suicidal, competitive, non-competitive, probably doesn't matter as much as how you feel on that particular therapy.

If you've been on anastrozole (or whatever drug) for 6 months, and have great E2 numbers, but you still feel lousy, I would certainly not be opposed to trying something new. Perhaps a new AI is the best change to make, perhaps not. That's up to the patient and their physician.

[Renholder]

What's your SHBG level?

Aromasin lowers SHBG. You do not want your SHBG too low. Since I have low SHBG, I chose arimidex for that very reason.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91. Related Articles, Links


Comparative clinical pharmacology and pharmacokinetic interactions of aromatase inhibitors.

Boeddinghaus IM, Dowsett M.

The Academic Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, Fulham Road, SW3 6JJ, London, UK.

The clinical development of aromatase inhibitors (AIs) has been closely guided by clinical pharmacological investigations. During the early phases of development studies were focused on dose-related pharmacological effectiveness and specificity. More recently attention has been given to the metabolic changes which AIs elicit, with particular regard to their potential use in early breast cancer and the prophylactic setting. Pharmacological effectiveness has been studied with plasma oestrogen assays but primary oestrogens (E1 and E2) are not helpful in comparing the third generation inhibitors: anastrozole, letrozole , exemestane. All three of these compounds suppress whole body aromatisation by >96%. Most recently, we have established that significantly greater inhibition is achieved by letrozole than anastrozole at their clinically used dosages. This more complete inhibition is paralleled by significantly greater suppression of E1S.A broad panel of endocrine investigations has indicated that these compounds have essentially complete specificity at their clinical dosages. A minor androgenic effect of exemestane is revealed by a significant suppression of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Lipid and bone biomarker data are being collected in many current studies. A pharmacokinetic interaction has been established between letrozole and tamoxifen , whereby reduced circulating levels of letrozole are found with combined application. Neither anastrozole nor letrozole have any effect on plasma concentrations of tamoxifen when given in combination with it.

[MickeyKnox]

I was the one who wrote that. If you can dose arimidex , great. Don't change what isn't broken.

But, a lot of guys seem to have trouble with E2 rebound, and a rollercoaster feeling with Arimidex, and from what I have seen those guys prefer Aromasin . Also, it can take about a month to get to stable blood levels of Arimidex. Not sure i follow you here. For me Dex works fairly quickly and doesn't require any time to 'spool up" like Aromasin. And i have never waited a month for any AI to begin working. Please expand.

Aromasin otoh has a 9 hour half life. But, because it kills aromatase, and you have to wait for it to regenerate, the E2 suppresion half life is closer to 48 hour. I assume you meant to include Arimidex here to distinguish between the two? After 120 hours you are back to whatever E2 level you are normally at, if you never taken Aromasin. What if you have taken Aromasin? Again, i don't follow you.

So, imo it is a lot easier to get the correct dose because of those reasons. Correct dosages of what?? Stane/Dex? After a week on a dose you are pretty much stable, instead of having to wait a month (like arimidex). Once again, Ive never waited a month for Dex to kick in ever, in fact its pretty fast acting imho. And, if you do crash your E2, it is a lot easier to transition to a new dose (as there is no rebound effect). If you crash your E2, changing your dose will be the last thing on your mind, trust me. So, you can tell if it is the correct dose a lot quicker without having to deal with rebound effect, and having to wait another month for the new dose to stabalize.

Not questioning your personal experience, but some of your comments dont jive bro. However, i think i understand the point youre making.

[jimmyinkedup]

within 24 hrs a single administration of adex lowers e2 levels 70% after 14 days that number only goes up to close to 80. My point. It doesnt take months to do shit. It works damn fast.
Thats right from astra zeneca clinical trials data.

[lacey23]

Not questioning your personal experience, but some of your comments dont jive bro. However, i think i understand the point youre making.

No problem

Not sure i follow you here. For me Dex works fairly quickly and doesn't require any time to 'spool up" like Aromasin. And i have never waited a month for any AI to begin working. Please expand.

It's not that it take a month to start working. It can take a month to get to stable levels (From Dr. Crisler & longer half life), and to get your E2 to a stable level. Yeah, you can start taking 'x' amount of arimidex and start feeling it quickly. But, you want the dose that is stable to put your E2 in a good spot, you don't want to be in a good spot while the stuff is still building up in your system, or by the time it's built up you'll be low.

What if you have taken Aromasin? Again, i don't follow you.

The point was that you don't get a rebound effect from it. Dr Crisler has said that in his patients he's noticed that after discontinuation of arimidex there is a rebound period with E2, and it takes about a month for E2 to stabalize after discontinuation. However, with Aromasin you don't have to wait a month for it to get out of your system, and have all the unbound aromatase clear out of your system. E2 just goes back to baseline. A lot simpler imo, than having to deal with a lengthy rebound effect. Now, obviously you aren't going to go off your AI all together, but if you do run your E2 too low, and have to back off the dose, you will still get some form of a rebound in E2, and it could take some time to get stable again. With Aromasin you don't have that deal with a lengthy rebound to get stable E2 again. Personally, I like that and so have quite a few of the TRT people I've talked to that made the switch.

Correct dosages of what?? Stane/Dex?

Correct doses of Aromasin are much easier imo, because there is less moving parts of unbound aromatase getting freed up on you, and a shorter time to stabalize.

Once again, Ive never waited a month for Dex to kick in ever, in fact its pretty fast acting imho

it kicks in fast, and if it works for you then great. But, it does take a bit longer to get to stable levels.

If you crash your E2, changing your dose will be the last thing on your mind, trust me

It's a factor for me. It may not be for everyone. But, others I have talked to like it for this ability as well.

Personally, I was on Arimidex, and after changing the dose 5 different times I was still crashing my E2, even on .10mg e3d, and had to wait 4-8 weeks between each Dr's visit. The rollercoaster kind of sucked imho.

When I switched to aromasin I started small with ED doses, and worked my way up till I felt good. Took a couple weeks. Went and got a blood test, and E2 was perfect. My Dr. increased the cyp test dose. Again I slowly increased the aromasin dose till I felt good, and E2 came back good on the next lab as well.

If Arimidex works for someone that is great. But, in my personal expereince, and the experience of quite a few others I've talked to, Aromasin has been a lot easier to deal with since it stabalizes much quicker, and there is no rebound effect.

[DanMan250]

lacey23, out of interest, how much aromasin are you taking and how much test cyp?

[HRTstudent]

within 24 hrs a single administration of adex lowers e2 levels 70% after 14 days that number only goes up to close to 80. My point. It doesnt take months to do shit. It works damn fast.
Thats right from astra zeneca clinical trials data.

it does work fast... in 2 weeks it can bring many men too low.

but as a bit of an aside, its important to remember that the majority of these trials that are even done on men, as done on obese men not on trt. they seem to have some significant differences physiologically when compared to average men on TRT.

[lacey23]

lacey23, out of interest, how much aromasin are you taking and how much test cyp?

My last increase in test cyp put me at 48mg eod (168mg/week)

Gernerally speaking I average about 3.5mg of aromasin ED. E2 has a tendancy to float a bit. So if I notice slightly low E2 symptoms might take a day off and drop it down a bit. If I notice slightly high E2 symptoms I may increase it slightly. Because there is no rebound effect I think there is a lot better ability to do this.

[ctenosaura]

This now has me asking more questions......

<"If you crash your E2, changing your dose will be the last thing on your mind, trust me">
1) ??What happens during a crash and what does it feel like?

2) Does Aromasin need to be taken every day and Arimidex 2x a week?

3) If one has just started TRT 8 weeks ago, does the body go through an adjustment period or will I pretty much know "by a bodily change" if I need an AI before I actually get my blood work back?

4) Overall, which would be the "healthier" (if thats the right term) AI to take?

5) I'm taking .75ml once a week and I've been told by some to split it into twice a week injects. Will twice a week possibly lessen my need for an AI?

Thanks again

[lacey23]

This now has me asking more questions......

<"If you crash your E2, changing your dose will be the last thing on your mind, trust me">
1) ??What happens during a crash and what does it feel like?

A lot of the same symptoms as high E2, feeling like crap, depression, anxiety, inability to get wood, no libido, joint pain, etc... Seems to vary from person to person.

In my experience the low E2 symptoms (or high E2 symptoms) get worse the further you get from the 'sweet spot'. If you are just slightly low E2 or high E2 you may only have a couple of these problems, and they won't be that severe. But, if you absolutely tank your E2 into the ground or E2 goes way too high then they get a lot worse. So, it's better to catch it early before you deviate too far from the good range.

2) Does Aromasin need to be taken every day and Arimidex 2x a week?

It's highly individual. I would say generally speaking you want to dose Aromasin closer together than Arimidex , but I think most people dose arimidex ED or EOD.

3) If one has just started TRT 8 weeks ago, does the body go through an adjustment period or will I pretty much know "by a bodily change" if I need an AI before I actually get my blood work back?

If you have experience with using testosterone in the past you might have a pretty good idea. But, you don't want to add an AI till seeing bloodwork, because it may be something else entirely.

4) Overall, which would be the "healthier" (if thats the right term) AI to take?

From what i understand Aromasin tends to be better on the lipid profile, but I can't say with certainty which one is healthier as there isn't a ton of info out there on every health aspect regarding men on TRT using AI's.

5) I'm taking .75ml once a week and I've been told by some to split it into twice a week injects. Will twice a week possibly lessen my need for an AI?

Possibly.

Thanks again[/QUOTE]

[M302_Imola]

What's your SHBG level?

Aromasin lowers SHBG. You do not want your SHBG too low. Since I have low SHBG, I chose arimidex for that very reason.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91. Related Articles, Links


Comparative clinical pharmacology and pharmacokinetic interactions of aromatase inhibitors.

Boeddinghaus IM, Dowsett M.

The Academic Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, Fulham Road, SW3 6JJ, London, UK.

The clinical development of aromatase inhibitors (AIs) has been closely guided by clinical pharmacological investigations. During the early phases of development studies were focused on dose-related pharmacological effectiveness and specificity. More recently attention has been given to the metabolic changes which AIs elicit, with particular regard to their potential use in early breast cancer and the prophylactic setting. Pharmacological effectiveness has been studied with plasma oestrogen assays but primary oestrogens (E1 and E2) are not helpful in comparing the third generation inhibitors: anastrozole, letrozole , exemestane. All three of these compounds suppress whole body aromatisation by >96%. Most recently, we have established that significantly greater inhibition is achieved by letrozole than anastrozole at their clinically used dosages. This more complete inhibition is paralleled by significantly greater suppression of E1S.A broad panel of endocrine investigations has indicated that these compounds have essentially complete specificity at their clinical dosages. A minor androgenic effect of exemestane is revealed by a significant suppression of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Lipid and bone biomarker data are being collected in many current studies. A pharmacokinetic interaction has been established between letrozole and tamoxifen , whereby reduced circulating levels of letrozole are found with combined application. Neither anastrozole nor letrozole have any effect on plasma concentrations of tamoxifen when given in combination with it.

Great post, backed up with scientific data! I wasn't aware of Aromasin's ability to lower SHBG that much...thanks for the info!

[ctenosaura]

Okay thanks guys. I'll know whats I need later this week when my blood work comes back. I'm just eager to get this thing dialed in.

[MickeyKnox]

No problem


It's not that it take a month to start working. It can take a month to get to stable levels (From Dr. Crisler & longer half life), and to get your E2 to a stable level. Yeah, you can start taking 'x' amount of arimidex and start feeling it quickly. But, you want the dose that is stable to put your E2 in a good spot, you don't want to be in a good spot while the stuff is still building up in your system, or by the time it's built up you'll be low.


The point was that you don't get a rebound effect from it. Dr Crisler has said that in his patients he's noticed that after discontinuation of arimidex there is a rebound period with E2, and it takes about a month for E2 to stabalize after discontinuation. However, with Aromasin you don't have to wait a month for it to get out of your system, and have all the unbound aromatase clear out of your system. E2 just goes back to baseline. A lot simpler imo, than having to deal with a lengthy rebound effect. Totally agree with you here. Now, obviously you aren't going to go off your AI all together, but if you do run your E2 too low, and have to back off the dose, you will still get some form of a rebound in E2, and it could take some time to get stable again. With Aromasin you don't have that deal with a lengthy rebound to get stable E2 again. Personally, I like that and so have quite a few of the TRT people I've talked to that made the switch.


Correct doses of Aromasin are much easier imo, because there is less moving parts of unbound aromatase getting freed up on you, and a shorter time to stabilize. I disagree, based on my personal experience. I find it easier to dial in Dex than Stane. But i know what the reason is for this. I'll address that a bit later.


it kicks in fast, and if it works for you then great. But, it does take a bit longer to get to stable levels.


It's a factor for me. It may not be for everyone. But, others I have talked to like it for this ability as well.

Personally, I was on Arimidex, and after changing the dose 5 different times I was still crashing my E2, even on .10mg e3d, and had to wait 4-8 weeks between each Dr's visit. The rollercoaster kind of sucked imho. The reason for this is very clear, to me at least - you are extremely sensitive to estrogen fluctuation. Physiologically speaking, some men cant handle estrogen related imbalances, particularity when introducing exogenous testosterone. Your body readily converts estrogen at a rapid pace compared to most other men. This is not uncommon but you are simply the minority. This is likely why it takes you forever to dial in your E2.

When I switched to aromasin I started small with ED doses, and worked my way up till I felt good. Took a couple weeks. Went and got a blood test, and E2 was perfect. My Dr. increased the cyp test dose. Again I slowly increased the aromasin dose till I felt good, and E2 came back good on the next lab as well. Excellent! That didn't take long at all! And quite frankly this goes against the grain and what you have been speaking about. Interesting, dont you think?

If Arimidex works for someone that is great. But, in my personal expereince, and the experience of quite a few others I've talked to, Aromasin has been a lot easier to deal with since it stabalizes much quicker, and there is no rebound effect. Agreed. Im an Aromasin fan, remember?

My last increase in test cyp put me at 48mg eod (168mg/week)

Gernerally speaking I average about 3.5mg of aromasin ED. E2 has a tendancy to float a bit. So if I notice slightly low E2 symptoms might take a day off and drop it down a bit. If I notice slightly high E2 symptoms I may increase it slightly. Because there is no rebound effect I think there is a lot better ability to do this.Again, it doesn't require very much AI to control your rising E2. Looks like you have it under control..

Good luck.