TRT or cycle? Need some help big time guys!

**wndyctyjsn** · 01-28-2013, 07:59 PM

Hey guys, I just recently joined the forum after researching on here for a year or so. The truth is the more I read, the more I get confused on the right choice, especially long term. If you guys could help me I would really appreciate it. Sorry in advance if this is long and boring.

I am 32, 5'11, 189, 12-13% bf. I have been lifting for two years, and have made some big changes to my body composition. I have Hypothroidism, and for the last year I have had my doctor run test labs as I felt it was hard to build muscle even with a clean bulk diet. The results started off low around 250, and as I have focused more on my training and less on cardio I have managed to raise my levels up to 430 as of last month. I am not sure what the correlation is between the two, except that maybe I was over training?

Anyways, I have a wife and two kids. I just want to make sure I am making a decision that will be good for us long term. I initially was just going to run a beginner cycle with the PCT as I have learned here. But after researching low t, I have learned many men with hypothyroidism also have low t. I brought this up with my endo and she gives the everything is normal speech, which I knew was coming based on others experiences here.

I have thought about my goals and essentially I want the following (please don't flame me for some of the shallow points):

1. To be the best version of me I can, slim and muscular for the rest of my life.
2. I want to do this safely, and with Pharma grade product if at all possible. Even after reading positive reviews on UGL's I still am skeptical.
3. I want the support of my wife, which I would get through TRT.
4. I want to sleep better, I have a hard time sleeping which equals a hard time building muscle.
5. I want to be happier in general, more optimistic.
6. I want to recover easier from the gym and just in general.

So based on everything I have stated here, it seemed like TRT was the best route for me. I went so far as to schedule with a doc that specialized in trt and was told over the phone based on my results I would be a candidate for Test C at 200 per week, HCG and Armidex. It would cost me $200 per month by the way.

I was excited about this meeting until I started reading regrets of TRT on here. Basically most people saying don't jump on unless you have to. Run cycles twice per year, don't TRT if you truly don't need it. Most seem to say this is for life and a great thing when you need it, but very inconvenient. So I am all turned around guys.

Do I need this? I have no idea! I am tired alot, hard to make gains that are real solid muscle even with strict form and plenty of calories, cranky a lot, mildly depressed half the time. Is this just part of getting older or do I need TRT. Should I just run a cycle and see how I feel? I know I am the only one that can make this decision, but I really need some guidance guys. If you could help me see the light, I would be really grateful. Thanks in advance!

**Papa Smurf** · 01-28-2013, 08:08 PM

TRT is a "have to" not a "want to" What was your BW results? Free Test Total Test?

**kelkel** · 01-28-2013, 08:17 PM

Welcome wndyctyjsn!

Well, first and foremost it sounds like you need a new doctor who is a bit more educated on male hormones. Most docs, including endo's just don't know hormones. Everyone thinks it an endo's speciality, it's not. It's also great to see you are self-educating! In my opinion you need to start with full blood work along with the new doc. An example of BW is in the Finding A Doc sticky at the top of the forum. Be sure to get a full thyroid panel including T3, T4, FT3, FT4, RT3, TSH and Antibodies. Many doc's think you're thyroid is fine if your in the scale. This is patently wrong. Good place to learn is www.stopthethyroidmadness.com. Matter of fact, if you have recent BW, post it up with ranges please so we can evaluate it. We're actually pretty good at it here.

When it comes to your goals, that's what we all want. And yes, there is nothing wrong with TRT if it's actually needed. And that's the key, is it needed? You need to find a competent doc who can diagnose the causative factor here. Then and only then can you determine what path to take. If not, you're essentially putting a bandaid on it, right? It's your health so take control of this. Many things can cause low T with hypothyroid being only one of many. Pathology, cortisol, trauma and the list can go on. It's very possibly your issue is correctable which would be much nicer than TRT at 32. Be nice to hold off another 10-15 years don't you think?

Run a cycle. No. Of course you'd feel good on it but if not properly done you could end up in even worse shape or possibly at an even lower level when you come off. There are many things you can do to improve your own levels but the first thing is proper blood work.

Help us help you!

kel

**wndyctyjsn** · 01-28-2013, 08:20 PM

I get what you mean, and the truth is I don't know if I need this, but its hard not to want this with the results and effects that people post here. I will be grabbing my test results and posting them up tomorrow but I believe those are total test. Thanks

**Papa Smurf** · 01-28-2013, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Welcome wndyctyjsn!

Well, first and foremost it sounds like you need a new doctor who is a bit more educated on male hormones. Most docs, including endo's just don't know hormones. Everyone thinks it an endo's speciality, it's not. It's also great to see you are self-educating! In my opinion you need to start with full blood work along with the new doc. An example of BW is in the Finding A Doc sticky at the top of the forum. Be sure to get a full thyroid panel including T3, T4, FT3, FT4, RT3, TSH and Antibodies. Many doc's think you're thyroid is fine if your in the scale. This is patently wrong. Good place to learn is www.stopthethyroidmadness.com. Matter of fact, if you have recent BW, post it up with ranges please so we can evaluate it. We're actually pretty good at it here.

When it comes to your goals, that's what we all want. And yes, there is nothing wrong with TRT if it's actually needed. And that's the key, is it needed? You need to find a competent doc who can diagnose the causative factor here. Then and only then can you determine what path to take. If not, you're essentially putting a bandaid on it, right? It's your health so take control of this. Many things can cause low T with hypothyroid being only one of many. Pathology, cortisol, trauma and the list can go on. It's very possibly your issue is correctable which would be much nicer than TRT at 32. Be nice to hold off another 10-15 years don't you think?

Run a cycle. No. Of course you'd feel good on it but if not properly done you could end up in even worse shape or possibly at an even lower level when you come off. There are many things you can do to improve your own levels but the first thing is proper blood work.

Help us help you!

kel

Kelkel you ole wordsmith you...................

OP you just got about $250 bucks worth of damn good advice. Thats what insurance pays for the average doctors visit

**wndyctyjsn** · 01-28-2013, 08:32 PM

Kel, it's funny I have been researching on there as well and I am thinking hard about going on armour which they push hard there in combination with a few other things.

But getting to the point I agree, I need to get to the source or root of my problem. Currently I am on .224 micrograms which is very high dosage for thyroid medication. Every endo I have seem just goes with the old standard treatment.

I will be posting up my last few blood work ups and hope you guys can help. Should have them up here by tomorrow afternoon. Thanks!

**wndyctyjsn** · 01-28-2013, 08:37 PM

Yep damn good advice, what type of doc would you advise if not an endo? And where can I learn about what would cause both the hypothyroid and low t? And man you are so right it would be great to raise up my levels and wait 10-15 years...I didn't even think that was an option here!

**kelkel** · 01-28-2013, 08:56 PM

First choice would be an A4M Certified doc. Check the finding a Doc sticky and there is a search engine....never mind, here it is:

http://www.a4m.com/directory.html you may have to play around with it a bit but it is effective. These are certified anti-aging doctors. Other than that it's not so much the title that matters it's just that they know hormones and are willing to work with you, not dictate with one-sided conversations.

When it comes to hypothyroid and low T you're missing the point. Hypothyroid can and will CAUSE low T. Just put hypothyroid and low T into google and you'll be reading all night!

**lovbyts** · 01-29-2013, 12:25 AM

Agreed with all the advice above but to add to it you want to think about your future. You are 32. If you go on TRT then you HAVE to pin at least 1x a week for the rest of your life. That is the bare minimum. Most people are finding 2x a week keeps levels better. Then there is the HCG part of it that is VERY important if you want to keep your little swimmers (fertility) working. Dont be to quick to say you arent worried about it since you are married and have a kid. I said the same thing. I'm 50 now and considering a vasectomy reversal and gong on HCG for fertility to see if I can get things working again??? With that in mind it would mean another 2 - 3 injections a week so now you are up to 4 or 5x a week for the next 40+ years?

Any guarantee you will never get laid off, fired, change jobs, always have 100% insurance coverage that will pay for your Test? Most insurance wont pay for HCG so that can be anywhere from a hundred - to a few hundred a month depending on how you get it.

It all adds up and I dont think you will find many who say they would choose to be on TRT if they had a choice. The benefits outweigh the consequences though if you dont have a choice. Low T sucks.

What kind of doc seems to vary from state to state. In some states Endocrinologist seem to be on track while other places urologist are better.

**zaggahamma** · 01-29-2013, 09:47 AM

all good advice and yes you do get good free advice here always

i see your point where you see all of us posting about the difference trt has made and it has

i NEEDED trt as my levels were 250-290 on 3 initial tests AND no more fatloss was being seen despite having had lost 30lbs and still hard work in the gym...was stuck around 25% bf..

i think that made it an easier decision for me and not having a decent test level of 450 coming back to ponder

**Papa Smurf** · 01-29-2013, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Agreed with all the advice above but to add to it you want to think about your future. You are 32. If you go on TRT then you HAVE to pin at least 1x a week for the rest of your life. That is the bare minimum. Most people are finding 2x a week keeps levels better. Then there is the HCG part of it that is VERY important if you want to keep your little swimmers (fertility) working. Dont be to quick to say you arent worried about it since you are married and have a kid. I said the same thing. I'm 50 now and considering a vasectomy reversal and gong on HCG for fertility to see if I can get things working again??? With that in mind it would mean another 2 - 3 injections a week so now you are up to 4 or 5x a week for the next 40+ years?

Any guarantee you will never get laid off, fired, change jobs, always have 100% insurance coverage that will pay for your Test? Most insurance wont pay for HCG so that can be anywhere from a hundred - to a few hundred a month depending on how you get it.

It all adds up and I dont think you will find many who say they would choose to be on TRT if they had a choice. The benefits outweigh the consequences though if you dont have a choice. Low T sucks.

What kind of doc seems to vary from state to state. In some states Endocrinologist seem to be on track while other places urologist are better.

You ole dog you!!! Thinkin bout havin another little Lovbyts ? Can the world handle that? Good luck my brother!!

**wndyctyjsn** · 01-29-2013, 11:27 AM

**wndyctyjsn** · 01-29-2013, 11:40 AM

Ok guys above are my tests going back to 2011 and the last one being the most recent and most complete. I really appreciate everyone's help here.

Kel, I called my endo she does prescribe Armour and is willing to let me add the tests I would like to my blood work. So this is a positive start, although through that link you sent over I found what appears to be a great doc. Here is a little bio on him, you think I am headed in the right direction here? Should I just start clean with thsi new doc that looks to be obviously more qualified? I deleted the doctors name to keep things private here :

As Medical Director of (deleted for privacy) devotes his Illinois practice to preventive and functional medicine, wellness, and anti-aging medicine integrated with bioidentical hormone therapy, and customized nutrition and fitness programs. As a former Emergency Room physician, (deleted for privacy) witnessed firsthand the negative effects of poor health and its impact on both disease and quality of life for his patients and developed a passion for preventive medicine.

(deleted for privacy) graduated from the Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine at Midwestern University. He completed his residency in 2003 at Midwestern University at Provident Hospital in Chicago. He practiced Emergency Medicine at Provena St. Joseph Hospital and Northwest Community Hospital in Illinois and at Mercy Hospital in Janesville, Wisconsin.

(deleted for privacy) served our country as a Major in the U.S. Army Reserves and served active duty as an Emergency Medicine Physician in 2002 during Operation Enduring Freedom at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Landstuhl, Germany. He is Board Certified by the American Osteopathic Board of Emergency Medicine (AOBEM) and an active member of the American Board of Anti-Aging and Regenerative Medicine Fellowship. He is also a member of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine (A4M) and the American Osteopathic Association. (AOA) Board Certifications, Associations and Training:

Member of (deleted for privacy) a national network of highly trained physicians specializing in Natural Bioidentical Hormone Therapy.
Member of the American Academy for Anti-Aging Medicine
Extensive training in anti-aging provided by the fellowship in Anti-Aging and Regenerative Medicine
Certified by the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners
American Osteopathic Board of Emergency Medicine (AOBEM)
Member of the American Osteopathic Association

Lovbyts, see what you are saying is what I keep reading. Pinning once a day and so forth sucks as I understand it. But, I guess I look at it like this....if my quality of life is better, my family is happier, my business is more successful, than pinning once a day and all that comes with trt is worth it. Financially, I am okay to pay for this out of pocket, of course would rather not.

Zagga, so do you think that being in the 400 range is a good acceptable range? I keep reading 800-1000 range is optimal for most? I could see how me being in the 400 range is defiantly a questionable range for TRT.

**zaggahamma** · 01-29-2013, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by wndyctyjsn

Ok guys above are my tests going back to 2011 and the last one being the most recent and most complete. I really appreciate everyone's help here.

Kel, I called my endo she does prescribe Armour and is willing to let me add the tests I would like to my blood work. So this is a positive start, although through that link you sent over I found what appears to be a great doc. Here is a little bio on him, you think I am headed in the right direction here? Should I just start clean with thsi new doc that looks to be obviously more qualified? I deleted the doctors name to keep things private here :

As Medical Director of (deleted for privacy) devotes his Illinois practice to preventive and functional medicine, wellness, and anti-aging medicine integrated with bioidentical hormone therapy, and customized nutrition and fitness programs. As a former Emergency Room physician, (deleted for privacy) witnessed firsthand the negative effects of poor health and its impact on both disease and quality of life for his patients and developed a passion for preventive medicine.

(deleted for privacy) graduated from the Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine at Midwestern University. He completed his residency in 2003 at Midwestern University at Provident Hospital in Chicago. He practiced Emergency Medicine at Provena St. Joseph Hospital and Northwest Community Hospital in Illinois and at Mercy Hospital in Janesville, Wisconsin.

(deleted for privacy) served our country as a Major in the U.S. Army Reserves and served active duty as an Emergency Medicine Physician in 2002 during Operation Enduring Freedom at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Landstuhl, Germany. He is Board Certified by the American Osteopathic Board of Emergency Medicine (AOBEM) and an active member of the American Board of Anti-Aging and Regenerative Medicine Fellowship. He is also a member of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine (A4M) and the American Osteopathic Association. (AOA) Board Certifications, Associations and Training:

Member of (deleted for privacy) a national network of highly trained physicians specializing in Natural Bioidentical Hormone Therapy.
Member of the American Academy for Anti-Aging Medicine
Extensive training in anti-aging provided by the fellowship in Anti-Aging and Regenerative Medicine
Certified by the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners
American Osteopathic Board of Emergency Medicine (AOBEM)
Member of the American Osteopathic Association

Lovbyts, see what you are saying is what I keep reading. Pinning once a day and so forth sucks as I understand it. But, I guess I look at it like this....if my quality of life is better, my family is happier, my business is more successful, than pinning once a day and all that comes with trt is worth it. Financially, I am okay to pay for this out of pocket, of course would rather not.

Zagga, so do you think that being in the 400 range is a good acceptable range? I keep reading 800-1000 range is optimal for most? I could see how me being in the 400 range is defiantly a questionable range for TRT.

to me, no...if i were stymied like i was with the results i was getting i would have wanted to try a higher level...cuz your 400's might be the same as mine or other's 200's because levels are also individual as to how their own body functions

**wndyctyjsn** · 01-29-2013, 06:07 PM

And that's the hard part, I have felt like I am struggling for so long that it has become normal to me. The thing its tolerable but the rosey picture that gets painted with trt life seems like it could be better. Hopefully I will get some solid advice when people view the blood tests here.

**flyrs** · 01-29-2013, 10:43 PM

you might be able to put off trt for awhile and just improve your test with supplements like zinc and dhea, chrysin and piperine, saw palmetto, stinging nettle

**bp2000** · 01-29-2013, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by wndyctyjsn

And that's the hard part, I have felt like I am struggling for so long that it has become normal to me. The thing its tolerable but the rosey picture that gets painted with trt life seems like it could be better. Hopefully I will get some solid advice when people view the blood tests here.

As others have said hypothyroid is what cause your low T. I would try some armour I heard good things from it. Play with your dose and retest before thinking about trt you are too young for trt.