Got blood work results in today.. pic

**ml87** · 03-19-2013, 06:47 PM

Hey guys, I posted this in the Q&A section but i do feel that it is better suited here.

I was going to cycle starting April first for 12 weeks 500mg enanth/wk and some var wk 1-6. But just got my bw back and it made me worried. Last year I ended a cycle of text cyp 12wk and ended pct in July. I recovered great as far as symptoms went and I've been feeling ok all year with the exception of muscle mass not being linear with the diet and work out in. My pct was torem and nolvadex .

I don't drink, don't smoke, not on any prescriptions, and exercise 5-6x a week. I'm a cpt with a degree in exercise science so I have a good workout program. My diet is on point. I take a multi, maca capsules, and St. John's wort daily.

Notice my vit d is down so I'm supplementing 5000iu extra d3 on top of my multi to see if that helps the low test. I'm 25 going on 26 in 3 weeks and don't want to be so quick to consider trt. This time last year my test was 675. I'm holding off on my cycle until I figure things out. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

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**steroid.com 1** · 03-19-2013, 08:02 PM

Your LH/FSH are low for a man your age most likely contributing to your low Testosterone serum levels.

Now your Total Testosterone serum level is not "frighteningly" low but it's not where you would expect to see a 25 year old.

You past aas history is most likely playing into a suppressed HPTA and you may need something like clomiphene to get your serum levels up.

You are not TRT for age related deficiency so maybe the guys in the PCT forum or Q&A can help with a mild PCT to see if they increases your serum levels and jump start your natural production.

BTW, how hard do you train those 5 to 6 days a week???

**ml87** · 03-19-2013, 08:05 PM

Thanks a lot, bud. I hate hate hate clomiphene, hence why I took Torem last cycle and fell in love. Will Torem get the work done? I have a bottle of that laying around..

**ml87** · 03-22-2013, 05:58 PM

so my plan was to run HCG , Torem, and Nolvadex for another round of PCT. After speaking with another doctor today, I was told to just run the HCG because I will not be dealing with estro rebound since its been a while since my cycle. What do you guys think I should do?

HCG day 1-16 2000iu eod
Torem day 1-30
Nolvadex day 1-45

---OR---

HCG day 1-16 2000iu eod

**VTX1800** · 03-22-2013, 07:30 PM

What's your reasoning behind the hatred towards clomid? Reason I ask, I take it everyday with my TRT protocol and have no issues with the med

**ml87** · 03-22-2013, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by VTX1800

What's your reasoning behind the hatred towards clomid? Reason I ask, I take it everyday with my TRT protocol and have no issues with the med

It makes me really depressed and makes daily activities really difficult. I cant find the motivation to exercise while on it. It also blurs my vision.

**ml87** · 03-23-2013, 04:59 PM

By the way, is this primary or secondary hypogonadism? I'm thinking secondary.. Am I correct?

**Allaaro** · 03-24-2013, 02:04 PM

Secondary is correct.

Where did you get that HCG restart protocol? Not something I'd do or even close to what I did with my doc....although it didn't work. 250iu 2/3 times a week all that is needed. If that doesn't help larger dosages won't make a difference. Also if those dosages get you back higher ranges itself, you can even stay on those dosages long term. Although I'd personally rather just get on test itself if restart didn't work when HCG removed.

Long term clomid I'm not a fan of at all. Think it's a crutch for people who don't want to pin needles(no offense meant). Plus even the considerations is relatively new practice...but like even sub-q injections, alternatives are made for people afraid to pin. Just my opinion.....take for what it is.

You might even need more than 5000iu vit d. I was near your same numbers and needed 10k extra ontop of 2k in multi to hit higher range. Very unlucky this is causing your low test though.

**kelkel** · 03-24-2013, 02:18 PM

Allaaro on a re-start the amount of HCG he's using is a recommended dosage via Scally's Power PCT Protocol. Caveat is he's not fresh off a cycle so I'd suggest an abbreviated pct. I believe I posted on his other thread. Always good to gather opinions of others as well.

**ml87** · 03-24-2013, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Allaaro

Secondary is correct.

Where did you get that HCG restart protocol? Not something I'd do or even close to what I did with my doc....although it didn't work. 250iu 2/3 times a week all that is needed. If that doesn't help larger dosages won't make a difference. Also if those dosages get you back higher ranges itself, you can even stay on those dosages long term. Although I'd personally rather just get on test itself if restart didn't work when HCG removed.

Long term clomid I'm not a fan of at all. Think it's a crutch for people who don't want to pin needles(no offense meant). Plus even the considerations is relatively new practice...but like even sub-q injections, alternatives are made for people afraid to pin. Just my opinion.....take for what it is.

You might even need more than 5000iu vit d. I was near your same numbers and needed 10k extra ontop of 2k in multi to hit higher range. Very unlucky this is causing your low test though.

I got it from Kelkel who referred me to "Google the Scally Power Pct". I don't plan to do this long term and I really don't want to do trt quite yet at my age of 25. I'm simply trying to restart my
hpta.

I also don't want to take clomid, I'd rather take torem for 30 days instead. What does that have to do with me being afraid to pin (maybe there's a miscommunication). I'm far from scared of pinning.

I have since kicked my vit d supplementation up to 10000 on top of my daily vit. Even if its not directly the cause, I still want to be in the middle range rather than the low.

So when you had the same issue you took 250iu of hcg and it didn't work? What were your levels like and were you primary or secondary? From what I understand, serms are an important contributing factor to restarting the hpta.

**kelkel** · 03-24-2013, 02:25 PM

Remember my caveat please.

Nolva!

**Allaaro** · 03-24-2013, 02:28 PM

Yeah I wasn't referring to you for being afraid to pin....just a generalization and maybe a small rant that many people are getting sub-optimal treatment because they are afraid of needles. Yes vitamin d is important...and I've never heard of anything wrong with overshooting it bit.

I was secondary, LH/FSH/test all rock bottom. No idea on cause, genetic probably as sister has female version of what I got. I hate serms altogether since I don't believe even the doctors fully understand how they work. Clomid does have it's place...just don't like it for a restart protocol. Being on TRT at 25 isn't ideal....but I got on TRT at 24, best decision ever made since I was probably low all throughout teens and my entire life continues to improve for the best now that I'm not dragging ass everyday. I'm 25 now.

**kelkel** · 03-24-2013, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Allaaro

Yeah I wasn't referring to you for being afraid to pin....just a generalization and maybe a small rant that many people are getting sub-optimal treatment because they are afraid of needles. Yes vitamin d is important...and I've never heard of anything wrong with overshooting it bit.

I was secondary, LH/FSH/test all rock bottom. No idea on cause, genetic probably as sister has female version of what I got. I hate serms altogether since I don't believe even the doctors fully understand how they work. Clomid does have it's place...just don't like it for a restart protocol. Being on TRT at 25 isn't ideal....but I got on TRT at 24, best decision ever made since I was probably low all throughout teens and my entire life continues to improve for the best now that I'm not dragging ass everyday. I'm 25 now.

Ya old fart!

**ml87** · 03-24-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Allaaro

Yeah I wasn't referring to you for being afraid to pin....just a generalization and maybe a small rant that many people are getting sub-optimal treatment because they are afraid of needles. Yes vitamin d is important...and I've never heard of anything wrong with overshooting it bit.

I was secondary, LH/FSH/test all rock bottom. No idea on cause, genetic probably as sister has female version of what I got. I hate serms altogether since I don't believe even the doctors fully understand how they work. Clomid does have it's place...just don't like it for a restart protocol. Being on TRT at 25 isn't ideal....but I got on TRT at 24, best decision ever made since I was probably low all throughout teens and my entire life continues to improve for the best now that I'm not dragging ass everyday. I'm 25 now.

Yep I figured it was a rant. All good.

I'm not fully opposed to trt if its my last resort but at the moment, I can't fathom the long term investment.

So your opinion and possible to opinion of Kelkel is to drop the clomid or torem and just keep the nolva with the hcg to combat the increase of estro that will be expected? I like "less is more" but only when it works!

**Allaaro** · 03-24-2013, 04:32 PM

I wouldn't even use the nolva to combat increase in estrogen since you don't know what increases your estrogen levels will be taking....need bloodwork.

Sure, if the HCG works properly estrogen will increase....but mine hardly went up(but my test hardly budged)....but it's better in my opinion to do just solo HCG, try the restart....if you run bloodwork and estrogen levels are high, THEN deal with it. Minimal medication to start the better. Also I'd rather adex at a very minimal dosage for that, but I doubt you'd need it. But I'm not sure if you follow that Scally Power Pct how your estrogen levels will react, since that is very high dosages of HCG in a short amount of time. Those are at dosage levels described on the vial itself for females, not males about fertility or something....can't remember exactly but its offbook dosages forsure. I'm sure some are using the Scally Power Pct right now and it's working for them....but I think its not ideal for restart and was published few years ago. But I don't know shit about PCT specifically.... I'll admit that since never will need it myself.

Although my HCG restart didn't work, I think the 250iu 2/3 times per week was/is the best restart method. As I found a doctor I trust in and who I think is ontop of his game....and that is what he suggested me to do.

**kelkel** · 03-24-2013, 05:37 PM

Still think you'd be fine with just Nolva to stimulate LH production....

Scallys protocol has been updated. He's arguably one of the foremost authorities on re-starts. But you don't need full fledged pct such as his.

Occams Razor!

**ml87** · 03-24-2013, 07:47 PM

Thanks again, kelkel. I'm just so frustrated from reading a lot of conflicting remedies. I just spent an hour reading this guys journal about how great he was doing with HCG and tamox, just to get to the end and find out he failed. Then I read HCG alone, then Tamox alone, then Clomid alone.. you get the idea. I also am seeing mostly that tamox should always be paired with clomi, but I still havent see if torem could be a good substitute for clomi in a case of secondary hypogonadism. I might just run tamox for 6 weeks and if after the 2nd week my testes haven't hypertrophied, I will add HCG.

I'm sure that in 10 minutes I'll be back to just wanted to do HCG alone..

**kelkel** · 03-24-2013, 09:10 PM

Your boys aren't going to shrink up. You have a lot of options available at this point. Remember, you're not shut down, just low. Relax. Stress elevates cortisol = lower testosterone !