A correspondence with Dr. E. Barry Gordon, Brooklyn, NY

[2Sox]

I have been corresponding with this physician through emails, attempting to convince him of the good sense of treating his patients with hCG . I'm posting this so that I can get as much information as possible from you all so that I can intelligently and effectively respond.

GDevine: I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this!

His "usual" protocol for TRT is 400 mg every two weeks. NO ai's! Does not consistently check estradiol levels and from my knowledge, is not too concerned about them. (He will however give weekly injections of 100-150mg, and allow self injection if requested.) I went to his office once, got a shot of 400mg, crashed terribly on the third and fourth day (probably my E2 going sky high) - and never went back. (At the time, I didn't know any better.) At this point, I am writing to him anonymously - he does not know I was treated at his office. Here is our correspondence:

His reply to my first email:
Also sorry to tell you that I agree with your urologist. There is no reason in the world for you to take HCG. The only sensical reason would be if you wanted to become a father. What are going to gain by taking an expensive, female, placental hormone, injection twice a week, for the rest of your life?? You're fortunate to have responded well to Testopel. That has not been my experience. But then all the men I've treated with Testopel had previously been treated with injections, so the Testopel suffered greatly by the comparison. During my 44 years of practicing medicine I've never seen a case of secondary hypogonadism. If someone has a pituitary disease, their T is the least of their problems.
Dr. _____

My response, in part:
Will you be including HCG in your TRT treatment protocol sometime in the future?
You must feel it is effective and safe since your office administers HCG for dieting purposes - and there has been a very great deal of controversy surrounding its use for this.

Many "anti-aging" practices across the country, as well as some of your renowned colleagues - such as Eugene Shippen, and Abraham Morgentaler - are including HCG and aromatase inhibitors in their protocols. There are reasons for this and they cannot be ignored.

Anyway, I'd be pleased to be a patient at your office if I can get you to include these in your treatment. There are many others like me looking for a physician who will do so. The TRT forums online are filled with countless well informed men who have taken charge of their health and who are looking for providers who will treat them with the most modern treatment protocols. Physicians are often referred and your office can be there for them. There is a large void to be filled.

In another email, I sent him a copy of Dr. Crisler's updated hCG protocol:
I thought I'd send this along to you while I was waiting for your response to my last email. I think you will find it interesting and provocative, to say the least. I'd be very interested in hearing your opinions on it.

His reply:
Did you get my first reply?
In regard to your attachment:
Never, not once, in fifteen years, and currently having over 2,500 office visits per month, did any man complain about testicular shrinkage. I see no reason whatsoever to advise costly injections twice a week for the rest of a man's life to gain nothing but slightly larger balls.
This doctor is assuming physiology that does not exist. T levels in human males are anything but stable. The big failing with transdermal therapy is the lack of T level fluctuating. Dosing every 2 weeks with levels falling quite low guarantees no desensitization which is a major effect of transdermals. The Abbot executive I discussed this with wouldn't even comment on desensitization. My patients have minimal to no roller coaster effect. In addition, because my patients' T levels drop there is some pituitary activation every two weeks (some ^ production of LH and FSH) and this minimizes testicular shrinkage. The "excellent performance stability" is one of the three main reasons transdermal T works so poorly compared to injections. Finally, keep in mind the main difference between my approach and the approach of others. We treat patients. They treat blood tests.
Dr. _____

That's where it stands, guys. I'm all ears. I'd be VERY happy to include what you say in my messages.

[steroid.com 1]

He completely dismisses the best practices and protocols of the leading HRT practitioners in hormonal replacement for men.

He is completely ignoring the fact that when a man introduces exogenous Testosterone they are inducing Secondary Hypogonadism which causes a self induced organ shut down of the Testes via HPTA suppression. This is seen very clearly by looking at subsequent blood work and LH/FSH suppression/shut-down.

Men need their testes to function and without an LH analog like HCG the testes will die...that's a fact.

Additionally, we have LH receptors throughout our bodies, especially in the brain. They are there for a reason and without HCG not only those receptors down regulate they will not be activated and that presents a lot of problems.

He's ignoring testosterone half life as well which is egregious enough in my opinion.

Fire him, tell him you are convinced in light of the medical data and results from other expert HRT practitioners that the need for HCG and an AI in the event of E2 management is a must.

I wouldn't waste anymore time with this guy. He's stuck in his own ways, ignores what the experts know, not willing to learn more despite your efforts and is not willing to help you.

Do I need to say more...?

[steroid.com 1]

This --> "Dosing every 2 weeks with levels falling quite low guarantees no desensitization which is a major effect of transdermals".

Where in a otherwise normal healthy male do we see huge peaks and troughs brought on by every two week injections. He's right that hormonal levels have a zig-zag pattern in serum levels as that's normal. What is NOT normal are the huge spikes we get in just 72 hours after injection, half life of 5 to 6 days and totally tanked by day 21...that's NOT normal.

Oh, and he completely ignores the impact on aromatase activity when Testosterone serum levels "roller coaster" like this.

I'd love to debate this guy...LOL.

[steroid.com 1]

Impossible --> "My patients have minimal to no roller coaster effect. In addition, because my patients' T levels drop there is some pituitary activation every two weeks (some ^ production of LH and FSH) and this minimizes testicular shrinkage".


Impossible, if the patient is HPTA suppressed properly due to the exogenous testosterone , HPTA doesn't just kick in for a few days than shut down again on the next injection.

Where's this cat getting this shit from???

[jomamma007]

Although I don't support his views necessarily since he gives large injections of 400mg at once, every two weeks, I suppose by the second week after its half-life you still have quite a good amount of test in you??? This may be why his patients don't experience the "roller coaster" effect (which I'm sure they do but stating this in his sales pitch doesn't help). Of course with an injection of 400mg, e2 is sure to spike and high at that which would cause problems. To say as the test half-lifes, there is some pituitary action of lh and fsh increase, might be valid i suppose( although doubtful to make any impact as you still have 200mg test in your system at that point), but enough to keep you from testicular atrophy until your next shot seems ridiculous. I haven't been on trt, but have done cycles and from my experience being on hcg made a drastic improvement in my well being, which in itself makes it well worth to include in any program of male hormone therapy that include injecting testosterone .

[steroid.com 1]

Show me one respected and well trained male HRT Practitioner who uses dosages 400 mg of Testosterone at one time every two weeks???

That's not TRT, I am sorry.

The best, like Shippen, are now prescribing SQ E3D's now at lower doses more frequently cycled.

That's completely opposite of this guy's approach...and I wonder why?

Who would you trust with your care if you had to make a choice???

HPTA suppression is HPTA suppression; it just doesn't start up on it's own just because Testosterone serum levels normalize.

I wish it were that easy...

[junk2222yard]

There is no reason in the world for you to take HCG. The only sensical reason would be if you wanted to become a father.

Although I would seek another HRT doc, if I had to work with this one I would say "Ok. I want to become a father," and then he would be forced to accept hCG by his own logic.

[2Sox]

G,
Thanks for you post. I'll be sure to include this in my next email to him. Anything else you'd like to add?

By the way, I no longer go to this doctor. Sorry if this was not clear in my original post.

[powerlifterty16]

dont bother! the guy has a chip on his shoulder and has no bedside manners. I drove from nj to see him at 18. He wouldnt tell me my blood results, and told me I was wasting his time. He said I either agree to get pinned by his office, or I leave!! He told me test would probably cure ALL my issues, and said if it didnt work out I could stop at any time with no ill effects lol. He refused to monitor e or any other hormones, and said he goes by feelings, not blood values. He is against anti e's or hcg .

I was 19 when i went to him. He also pins every 3 weeks. He is so quick to prescribe test. His clients in the waiting room looked like zombies.he DID tell me that my test was around 600 though for that particular drawing.

[kolaking]

I agree ,400mg inj. every two weeks is not a good TRT aproach...and anyone can take the wrong approach even for the 44 years he's practiced!

[HRTstudent]

The fact that he reports dosing 400mg every two weeks says enough right there.

Perhaps he never has patients complain because the patients who feel like shit simply leave (just as you did) or never show up. It shouldn't suprise you that every doctor has patients who come seeking help, needing help, go to their appointment, possibly get a diagnosis or a treatment... and then never come back.

[steroid.com 1]

It's just good that members like 2Sox post their experience like this.

He did a good job in describing his situation and how this Doctor is not only not helping his patients but hurting them.

It serves as a lesson for members and visitors alike what to lookout for and what to stay away from.

[powerlifterty16]

dr gordon's last reply is interesting , i'll admit.

[alpinist]

GD, I'd love to see that as well. I'll bring the popcorn. A good 'ole intellectual ass whooping!

[powerlifterty16]

someone on here should make a video response to gordon(not 2 sox since he knows gordon, and not me for the same reason).

[steroid.com 1]

Someone should just email him the link to this thread...simple as that.

[steroid.com 1]

That last statement is just testament to his ignorance.

The fact that he believes that men on a TRT only use HCG to get "larger balls" is just preposterous to be honest.

The HCG sticky at the top of the forum, written by a layman, has more knowledge in it about the administration and use of HCG than this Physician knows LOL.

[kelkel]

G,
Thanks for you post. I'll be sure to include this in my next email to him. Anything else you'd like to add?

By the way, I no longer go to this doctor. Sorry if this was not clear in my original post.

Yes, "your fired."

G eloquently answered the questions. I'd still email him this link! He needs to retire if he can't modernize his practices. He's in the stone age...

[2Sox]

Thank you all for your replies! Very enlightening. This is what doctors should be able to hear. And thanks, G, for backing this up with science.

I really didn't think I'd change his mind, but I did think it would be good for him to hear viewpoints that are based on science, on logic and on accepted medical protocols of the present day.

HRT,
You make a good point. I had that terrible reaction to the first mega-dose, called his PA who treated me and told him how terrible I was feeling. I mentioned estrogen level and he dismissed it outright. Said it would "get better". I went back one more time just to get my blood work done out of curiousity. That was two weeks after that shot. My total was 1125! My estradiol was 38 - which was midrange. Imagine what it had been a few days after that shot!

I never went back again.

[powerlifterty16]

2sox, the guy is nearly 80..i dont think he cares anymore..i think he is in it for the cash...although hcg isa money maker.

[2Sox]

All the more reason to listen to what is developing now