"DHEA - The Real Story"

[2Sox]

G,
Thank you for this explanation and for your patience. I've read Nelson Vergel's book and actually come back to it often as a reference.

Regarding DHEA: My understanding is that it is produced in the adrenals, along with cortisol. If there is too much DHEA, cortisol production goes up. And if there is too much cortisol, DHEA production goes up. Is this correct? The body goes for balance always.

I cannot see where introducing exogenous testosterone has anything to do with this process. Therein lies the confusion about the necessity for supplementing DHEA along with TRT. Of course, if a person is deficient, supplement. But just because one is on TRT? Doesn't compute with me.

Please help me out with this.;-)

[steroid.com 1]

G,
Thank you for this explanation and for your patience. I've read Nelson Vergel's book and actually come back to it often as a reference.

Regarding DHEA: My understanding is that it is produced in the adrenals, along with cortisol. If there is too much DHEA, cortisol production goes up. And if there is too much cortisol, DHEA production goes up. Is this correct? The body goes for balance always.
When Cortisol levels are high so is Progesterone. Both Progesterone and DHEA are synthesized from Pregnenolone. When the adrenals put a greater demand for more Progesterone production it does at the loss of DHEA as they are both competing. So, it's not at all abnormal to see depleted DHEA levels when there is higher levels of Cortisol.

I cannot see where introducing exogenous testosterone has anything to do with this process. Therein lies the confusion about the necessity for supplementing DHEA along with TRT. Of course, if a person is deficient, supplement. But just because one is on TRT? Doesn't compute with me.
You still don't grasp how the androgen pathway functions. I thought I did that in my post to you. Sorry if it didn't register.

Please help me out with this.;-)

Bold.

[2Sox]

I guess I'm going to have to pick up a copy of Endocrinlogy for Dummies. ;-)

[zerodarkthirty]

He's a chiropractor, but I like this video on male hormones. Great flow chart discussion.

Low Testosterone? It's not that simple! - YouTube

[2Sox]

He's a chiropractor, but I like this video on male hormones. Great flow chart discussion.

Low Testosterone? It's not that simple! - YouTube

Zero,
This is really great! A must see for anyone joining this forum. Maybe a sticky?


So it looks like my confusion was spot on. According to Dr. Krupka, this cascading event starts in the Adrenal glands: Cholesterol-->Pregnenolone-->Progesterone-->Aldosterone-->Cortisol
Cholesterol-->DHEA
And, yes, you can supplement with DHEA but you (still!) have to know what you are doing and how your own body will respond to it.


Chiropractor or no, this man seems to know his stuff.

[2Sox]

When Cortisol levels are high so is Progesterone. Both Progesterone and DHEA are synthesized from Pregnenolone. When the adrenals put a greater demand for more Progesterone production it does at the loss of DHEA as they are both competing. So, it's not at all abnormal to see depleted DHEA levels when there is higher levels of Cortisol.

So what does this have to do with the introduction of TRT - especially since the majority of DHEA is produced in the adrenals - not the testes - and has nothing to do with the HPTA?

I cannot see where introducing exogenous testosterone has anything to do with this process. Therein lies the confusion about the necessity for supplementing DHEA along with TRT. Of course, if a person is deficient, supplement. But just because one is on TRT? Doesn't compute with me.
[B]You still don't grasp how the androgen pathway functions. I thought I did that in my post to you. Sorry if it didn't register.[[B]

I believe I did follow you on this one. Maybe you misunderstood what I was asking: If DHEA does not originate in the testes, and is not part of the HPTA, why worry about back-filling it? Isn't DHEA and cortisol from the adrenals a separate issue altogether?

Edit: Correction: A small amount of DHEA is indeed made in the testes but the majority is from the adrenals.

[steroid.com 1]

If you are not studied in hormonal loops and how they interact with each other this is great.

But honestly, for most knowledgeable men here this is as basic as it comes.

He does do a good job at explaining a complex process in a simplistic way but he missed a few things which is okay.

He missed age related androgen deficiency and the slowing of HPTA and how that effects the androgen pathway...very important and relevant for many men here.

[2Sox]

Here is a pretty good article I came across:

Understanding Adrenal Function - DHEA, Cortisol, Pregnenolone

[Moparman]

Here is a pretty good article I came across:

Understanding Adrenal Function - DHEA, Cortisol, Pregnenolone

Good read. Thanks

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

An excessive ratio of carbohydrates to protein results in excess secretion of insulin, which often leads to intervals of hypoglycemia. The body, in an attempt to normalize blood sugar, initiates a counter-regulatory process during which the adrenals are stimulated to secrete increased levels of cortisol and adrenalin. It follows that an excessive intake of carbohydrates often leads to excessive secretion of cortisol. This contributes to chronic cortisol depletion and consequently, adrenal exhaustion. Reduced DHEA is an early sign of adrenal exhaustion.


I doubt if I am even at 20% Carbs, and close to 70% Protein and 10% fat ? 53 and TRT ? I am feeling a lot better now on an AI and DHEA , Progerolone , and increased Anabolics and HCG 3 times a week per gd's., Protical for 5000 iu's

My last BW on 02-26 was extrely low 40 with 680 being the low side of the normal range ? This concerns me as again my Dr. showed no concern in this reading ? I have been on 75 mg of micronized DHEA for almost a mth now and I will go back for mor BW the end of thos mth ? If my DHEA is still extremly low and my Dr. show no concern ; what steps should I take ? I am on a pretty good diet but not exactly as discribed in the article But I am being assisted by a forum member from the nutrition section and I am stablized in my weight and loosing fat a little at the time my Temp is normal now and BP is excrptional ! How ever before I started dialing in my diet and the Micronized DHEA and Micronized Progerlone 100 mg my Colestrol was a little high and a little low average to be with-in range and should be better this time ?

Any suggestion ? I go back for BW the end of this mth !

[2Sox]

Another very good article:

cortisoldhea

[Rusty11]

I completely agree that it's only common sense to research anything before putting it in your body....I don't care who suggests it. Now, with that said, everything I've added into my protocol since starting trt(3 different hormones/supps) came at the recommendation of gd-all have been grand slams. DHEA is not one of them, though. But, I spent a lot of time researching each item before deciding to take the plunge or not. So, maybe your level was fine to begin with. Mine is, so I don't suppliment. Anyway, research is always a smart thing to do.

[2Sox]

Rusty,
Thanks. This is good advice for anyone and I'm certain all on this forum would completely agree.

Anyway, my blood work results made me curious so I want to stop DHEA for a couple of weeks and then see what my bloods show as baseline. I'll supplement if the numbers indicate that I should. My GP gives me the lab form to check off the tests I want. I'm lucky.

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

I agree ! I do have a very colored past !

[jomamma007]

If you are not studied in hormonal loops and how they interact with each other this is great.

But honestly, for most knowledgeable men here this is as basic as it comes.

He does do a good job at explaining a complex process in a simplistic way but he missed a few things which is okay.

He missed age related androgen deficiency and the slowing of HPTA and how that effects the androgen pathway...very important and relevant for many men here.

Would you suggest supplementation of DHEA and Pregnenolone from the start of a hrt protocol?

[2Sox]

On the research I've been doing on the Internet, I haven't been able to find any data that references any research on DHEA more recent than 2005. Most research seems to have been done earlier than the 1990's. Not a terribly bad sign but not encouraging either. In several articles, I've come across references to DHEA supplementation and Cushing's Disease. Just a bit more evidence that this supplement should be taken judiciously. Here are two articles that reference it - unfortunately without footnotes:

DHEA-dehydroepiandrosterone

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dhe...SECTION=safety

[Allaaro]

I've had below lab ranges of DHEA...now I'm top of range. In Canada DHEA is from pharmacy and expensive....so I think I'll drop it soon and see if I notice anything since I really doubt it does anything in the long run. I don't need any backfilling....just add more test.

[steroid.com 1]

Would you suggest supplementation of DHEA and Pregnenolone from the start of a hrt protocol?

Most well trained TRT Physicians add both Pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation from the start for any TRT protocol - back filling the pathways.

At 50 mg of both daily is a very low dose and what finally makes it into the bloodstream is even less; in other words these are very low doses and safe at these levels.

It's why most good practitioners like transdermal applications as it seems to get more into the blood better than an oral compound.

That being said, and as noted by Dr. Rouizer, oral micronized SR seems to get just as good a result.

[steroid.com 1]

I've had below lab ranges of DHEA...now I'm top of range. In Canada DHEA is from pharmacy and expensive....so I think I'll drop it soon and see if I notice anything since I really doubt it does anything in the long run. I don't need any backfilling....just add more test.

Explain this, please.

[Allaaro]

If you have low dhea, and supplement it, it should bring up your T-levels. But if you are on TRT you don't need DHEA to bring up T-levels....just use test to bring up test levels. If I was in the states I'd be using it....since its so cheap. But considering DHEA costs more than test/hcg /adex here in Canada.....even if its a slight better 'backfilling' don't see it worth the money. Add in that DHEA doesn't get absorbed great and increases estrogen levels I think I won't be using it in the future. I've never been much of a supporter for backfilling talk...so take that into account. I think the docs are trying to get some more money with some of that backfilling. As I've yet to see a person really notice a different in taking DHEA with TRT. Even if they say they did I'd be skeptical with placebo effect.

[steroid.com 1]

My DHEA-S was always mid range.

Initiated TRT and in just 6 weeks it tanked.

Thus my need to supplement.

Cause and effect?

Most likely.

BTW, DHEA and Pregnenolone are not anabolic and will not increase testosterone serum levels...no clue where you're getting that information from.

I'm interested where you learned about no suppression of upstream hormones when a man introduces exogenous testosterone ...or is it just your personal opinion?

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

An excessive ratio of carbohydrates to protein results in excess secretion of insulin, which often leads to intervals of hypoglycemia. The body, in an attempt to normalize blood sugar, initiates a counter-regulatory process during which the adrenals are stimulated to secrete increased levels of cortisol and adrenalin. It follows that an excessive intake of carbohydrates often leads to excessive secretion of cortisol. This contributes to chronic cortisol depletion and consequently, adrenal exhaustion. Reduced DHEA is an early sign of adrenal exhaustion.


I doubt if I am even at 20% Carbs, and close to 70% Protein and 10% fat ? 53 and TRT ? I am feeling a lot better now on an AI and DHEA , Progerolone , and increased Anabolics and HCG 3 times a week per gd's., Protical for 5000 iu's

My last BW on 02-26 was extrely low 40 with 680 being the low side of the normal range ? This concerns me as again my Dr. showed no concern in this reading ? I have been on 75 mg of micronized DHEA for almost a mth now and I will go back for mor BW the end of thos mth ? If my DHEA is still extremly low and my Dr. show no concern ; what steps should I take ? I am on a pretty good diet but not exactly as discribed in the article But I am being assisted by a forum member from the nutrition section and I am stablized in my weight and loosing fat a little at the time my Temp is normal now and BP is excrptional ! How ever before I started dialing in my diet and the Micronized DHEA and Micronized Progerlone 100 mg my Colestrol was a little high and a little low average to be with-in range and should be better this time ?

Any suggestion ? I go back for BW the end of this mth !

So are DHEA levels not important and nothing to worry about ? Just something that is OK to balance and not even a factor in TRT ?

[Allaaro]

Probably read it somewhere upon a time, but yeah no idea where so yeah I'll go with personal opinion. It can cause suppression sure, but I don't think it will be any level that matters considering we are injecting test directly and our body is good at regulating itself.

Like I said, I'm on DHEA 50 per day right now....not sure if it's worth it because of the price so going to try dropping it and see if I notice a difference in overall feeling. Kind of how I treat creatine.....so cheap, I'll use it even if I'm not sure its doing anything. But creatine has lots of info proving it works. DHEA lots of information and is all over the place. There is different studies of a huge range of dosages with results ranging from it be amazing to being useless. With Canada retarded prices on DHEA, I can get multiple vials of test for the same price....just don't think it's worth the cost for something that isn't proven. But, if I drop it and feel an energy drop or wellbeing going down, I'll get back on it to see if it improves.

[steroid.com 1]

Relevant for this thread:

DHEA-supplementation boosts post-interval training anabolism
Interval training doesn't lower the level of anabolic hormones in the body, but many studies show that it raises the production of cortisol – which is catabolic – although not as much as endurance training does. Biochemists at Taipei Physical Education College discovered that supplementation with 50 mg DHEA makes the hormonal response to interval training even better.

DHEA-supplementation boosts post-interval training anabolism

[Vettester]

BTW, DHEA and Pregnenolone are not anabolic and will not increase testosterone serum levels...no clue where you're getting that information from.

GD, you've peaked my curiosity to jump into this conversation. I've always viewed DHEA to be a steroid hormone, but understanding its affinity is rather weak when competing to bind with androgen receptors. I've also always viewed DHEA to be a precursor downstream to convert bio-synthetically to testosterone and the three classes of estrogen. Possibly I have overlooked some studies on this particular subject, or might be reading your statement out of context?

As an example, standard compounded DHEA was causing some havoc on my wife's BHRT program. It was concluded with her physician that there was an influx of hormonal increase in testosterone, then downward to E1, 2 & 3, which were all being supplemented on a rhythmic protocol to mimic her monthly cycle routine with exogenous test, estrogen, & progesterone (cyp and 2 forms of compounded creams). The solution was 7-Keto DHEA, which once supplemented, her other hormones (downstream) began to stabilize (test serum decreased approx. 25%, and estrogens were back in range). Although, Keto 7 DHEA is a metabolite of DHEA sulphate, it's characteristics are noted as providing most of the positive benefits that patients seek from implementing DHEA. It's ability not to have any androgenic /estrogen conversion is one of the key reasons that people start administering it in place of DHEA.

This article from LifeExtension is from 2005, but I still find it relevant, and resourceful for getting a better understanding of 7 Keto DHEA. LE Magazine, May 2005 - Cover Story: 7-Keto DHEA The Fat-Burning Metabolite of DHEA I also started taking Keto 7 DHEA last year and never have looked back.

[2Sox]

Although, Keto 7 DHEA is a metabolite of DHEA sulphate, it's characteristics are noted as providing most of the positive benefits that patients seek from implementing DHEA. It's ability not to have any androgenic /estrogen conversion is one of the key reasons that people start administering it in place of DHEA.

This article from LifeExtension is from 2005, but I still find it relevant, and resourceful for getting a better understanding of 7 Keto DHEA. LE Magazine, May 2005 - Cover Story: 7-Keto DHEA The Fat-Burning Metabolite of DHEA I also started taking Keto 7 DHEA last year and never have looked back.

Vettester,
We sure could have saved a lot of time if we had heard from you earlier on this! LOL

Now I've got to hit the books on this item......

[kelkel]

The benefits of dhea go far beyond backfilling pathways. That's just a small part of what it can do for you. I still fall back to basic BW and continually monitoring of your levels as you age.

[steroid.com 1]

GD, you've peaked my curiosity to jump into this conversation. I've always viewed DHEA to be a steroid hormone, but understanding its affinity is rather weak when competing to bind with androgen receptors. I've also always viewed DHEA to be a precursor downstream to convert bio-synthetically to testosterone and the three classes of estrogen. Possibly I have overlooked some studies on this particular subject, or might be reading your statement out of context?

As an example, standard compounded DHEA was causing some havoc on my wife's BHRT program. It was concluded with her physician that there was an influx of hormonal increase in testosterone, then downward to E1, 2 & 3, which were all being supplemented on a rhythmic protocol to mimic her monthly cycle routine with exogenous test, estrogen, & progesterone (cyp and 2 forms of compounded creams). The solution was 7-Keto DHEA, which once supplemented, her other hormones (downstream) began to stabilize (test serum decreased approx. 25%, and estrogens were back in range). Although, Keto 7 DHEA is a metabolite of DHEA sulphate, it's characteristics are noted as providing most of the positive benefits that patients seek from implementing DHEA. It's ability not to have any androgenic /estrogen conversion is one of the key reasons that people start administering it in place of DHEA.

This article from LifeExtension is from 2005, but I still find it relevant, and resourceful for getting a better understanding of 7 Keto DHEA. LE Magazine, May 2005 - Cover Story: 7-Keto DHEA The Fat-Burning Metabolite of DHEA I also started taking Keto 7 DHEA last year and never have looked back.

I know the article well Vette, it's a good one.

Let's not confuse DHEA with 7-Keto DHEA; they are totally different in so many ways and 7-Keto will not do what DHEA does in our bodies.

You're right, for the most part, 7-keto supplementation is neither estrogenic nor androgenic. DHEA "can be androgenic" in that it may form androgenic and estrogenic hormones via an alternate metabolic pathway which 7-keto does not, but they act differently in the body.

That being said, I never read one piece of literature or any study that suggested that supplementing with DHEA will increase Testosterone . If it did, or even have a high likelihood, it would have been pulled from the shelves as OTC a long long time ago.

DHEA, as you noted correctly, is a hormone precursor where 7-Keto is not. Therefore, the purposes of supplementing DHEA for back filling hormonal pathways while on a TRT protocol will not be achieved with supplementing with 7-Keto.

I just want to make sure that we are not saying that what DHEA does in our bodies and what a metabolite does is the same thing in the body; they don't.

[steroid.com 1]

I just want everyone to know that DHEA supplementation is not going to increase your Testosterone serum levels. There are countless studies on the subject.

One that comes to mind:

Effects of dehydroepiandrosterone vs androstenedione supplementation in men.
Wallace MB, Lim J, Cutler A, Bucci L.

Source
Department of Sport Science, LGE Performance Systems, Orlando, FL 32728, USA. [email protected]

Abstract
PURPOSE:
The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of short-term (12 wk) supplementation with androstenedione versus dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) on body composition, strength, and related hormones in middle-aged men.

METHODS:
A randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind design was used to study 40 healthy, trained (>1 yr weight training) male subjects (mean +/- SD: age 48.1 +/- 3.9 yr; weight 79.8 +/- 9.8 kg). Subjects were randomly assigned to one of three groups: placebo (P), DHEA (D), or androstenedione (A). Supplements (50 mg capsules) were ingested two times daily for 12 wk. All testing, including venous blood samples, body composition, and performance, was conducted at three time points: presupplementation (1 d), at 6 wk, and postsupplementation (12 wk).

RESULTS:
Despite a small increase in lean body mass (0.8 +/- 0.4 and 0.5 +/- 0.3 kg) and mean strength (6.8 +/- 2.7 and 5.7 +/- 2.4 kg) in both D and A groups respectively, these changes were not significantly different from P. In D, there was a significantly greater increase in DHEA-S levels than in P (P < 0.05). There were no adverse side effects demonstrated during D or A supplementation including significant changes in PSA, liver function, or lipid levels (P < 0.05).

CONCLUSIONS:
The results of this study suggest that supplementation with 100 mg x d(-1) of either androstenedione or DHEA does not independently elicit a statistically significant increase in lean body mass, strength, or testosterone levels in healthy adult men over a 12-wk period.

[2Sox]

That being said, I never read one piece of literature or any study that suggested that supplementing with DHEA will increase Testosterone . If it did, or even have a high likelihood, it would have been pulled from the shelves as OTC a long long time ago.

cortisoldhea
LE Magazine, May 2005 - Cover Story: 7-Keto DHEA The Fat-Burning Metabolite of DHEA
DHEA - MayoClinic.com
Understanding Adrenal Function - DHEA, Cortisol, Pregnenolone

DHEA, as you noted correctly, is a hormone precursor where 7-Keto is not. Therefore, the purposes of supplementing DHEA for back filling hormonal pathways while on a TRT protocol will not be achieved with supplementing with 7-Keto.

GD,
I believe your are mistaken. The article you cite

http://www.ergo-log.com/dhea-supplem...abolism.html#1

in the very first paragraph, makes direct reference to DHEA conversion into testosterone and estrogen very clearly - as do the other two articles I cited in my previous posts (which I reference again above in the quote.) I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find others. It doesn't say that "supplementing with DHEA will increase testosterone" (as you state above) but it clearly states that DHEA converts directly into testosterone and estrogen. I suppose we can surmise that serum testosterone and estrogen levels will go up, as a result.

And the stated "purpose" of the other article/study you mention "was to compare the effects of short-term (12 wk) supplementation with androstenedione versus dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) on body composition, strength, and related hormones in middle-aged men."
This wasn't a study in hypogonadal men, and it wasn't a study in T levels- so the focus was completely elsewhere. (I have found some articles on DHEA supplementation that do seem to disagree with my theory though. I've indicated them below.)

And what does "statistically significant" (in the Conclusions section) mean anyway? This is a WIDE open statement that you can drive a truck through. You know the old saying, "Statistics don't lie....but liars use statistics."

Regarding back-filling: I'd really love it if someone would address the question I posed in an earlier post. One of the things I learned as a teacher; if someone in the class has a question, it's for sure there are others in the class that have the same one! Here it is: If DHEA does not originate [principally] in the testes, and is not part of the HPTA, why worry about back-filling it? Isn't DHEA and cortisol from the adrenals a separate issue altogether?

I look forward to any and all responses.

Edit: I found a study of young [healthy, non hypogonadal] men with the results that

"These results suggest that DHEA ingestion does not enhance serum testosterone concentrations or adaptations associated with resistance training in young men.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/87/6/2274.full
Seems to disagree with me.

Another article that seems to another point of view:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/6450.php
"When the body gets an excess of DHEA, it appears to preferentially turn the DHEA into testosterone, then DHT and then ADG,' Sokol explains. Testosterone may quickly break down into DHT, which quickly breaks down into the more stable hormone ADG. Elevated levels of that hormone then remain circulating in the blood.

Other studies have indicated that ADG is a growth factor for the prostate, and may prompt benign prostatic hypertrophy, the prostate enlargement commonly seen as men age, she says."

Not footnoted but very clear:
http://www.thenutritiondr.com/exerci...e-muscle-mass/

[jwh7699]

Are there potential side effects of having DHEA levels that are too high?

[kelkel]

GD,
I believe your are mistaken. The article you cite

DHEA-supplementation boosts post-interval training anabolism

in the very first paragraph, makes direct reference to DHEA conversion into testosterone and estrogen very clearly - as do the other two articles I cited in my previous posts (which I reference again above in the quote.) I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find others. It doesn't say that "supplementing with DHEA will increase testosterone " (as you state above) but it clearly states that DHEA converts directly into testosterone and estrogen. I suppose we can surmise that serum testosterone and estrogen levels will go up, as a result.

And the stated "purpose" of the other article/study you mention "was to compare the effects of short-term (12 wk) supplementation with androstenedione versus dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) on body composition, strength, and related hormones in middle-aged men."
This wasn't a study in hypogonadal men, and it wasn't a study in T levels- so the focus was completely elsewhere. I'm going to look for some studies relating DHEA supplementation and T levels. I'm fairly certain I will find a few.

And what does "statistically significant" (in the Conclusions section) mean anyway? This is a WIDE open statement that you can drive a truck through. You know the old saying, "Statistics don't lie....but liars use statistics."

Regarding back-filling: I'd really love it if someone would address the question I posed in an earlier post. One of the things I learned as a teacher; if someone in the class has a question, it's for sure there are others in the class that have the same one! Here it is: If DHEA does not originate [principally] in the testes, and is not part of the HPTA, why worry about back-filling it? Isn't DHEA and cortisol from the adrenals a separate issue altogether?

I look forward to any and all responses.

Was that necessary?

[steroid.com 1]

Was that necessary?

Agreed.

Disrespectful.

Done with this thread.

Peace.

PS. DHEA is part of HPTA. You still don't get it...

[Vettester]

All I can emphasize is that everyone does their homework on this subject, and put a game plan together with your physician(s) that will be successful for you and your program.

I choose 7 Keto DHEA, because it is the key metabolite derived from DHEA, that provides the features I desire for my well being. When taking DHEA, you ask yourself why? Like me, you might want adrenal support, immune support, metabolism (increase of adiponectin), and it's overall ability to reduce anxiety, promote happiness and well being. DHEA has also had a profound affect on promoting T3 production, which is also carried over with 7 Keto DHEA. Anyone here can do their research to see what the benefits of Keto 7 are, and will see one of its major selling points is that it DOES not convert into androgens; specifically mentioning testosterone , and into any class of estrogen. additionally, I have found it best 'for me' to cycle upstream hormones, like Pregnenolone, and the metabolite Keto 7 DHEA, which is IMO is key with preventing any down regulation of their effects. Again, there is no 1-Fits All program with bio HRT.

In defense of what GD is stating, I quote this directly from Dr. Uzzi Reiss, who is someone I admire highly for knowledge on hormonal health and anti-aging ... "DHEA converts into other androgens, like testosterone, but only specific cells designed for this conversion; from a clinical perspective, this means these higher hormone levels may not be detectable in blood tests, since the conversion occurs within cells, rather than the bloodstream." However, there is plenty of supporting evidence that both testosterone serum and DHT serum levels are impacted considerably in women. Here is some additional reading material from LEF on this subject: LE Magazine, June 2002 - Cover Story: DHEA and Anti-aging Medicine

Again, I encourage everyone to do their homework, and with the assistance of your physician, design a protocol that works for you. My protocol is suitable for me and my situations. As with many of vets here, it is comprised with years of research, trial and error, and keeping an open mind. In the beginning, there was mostly trial and error, which allowed the element of experience to help me discover better alternatives, and better physicians.

[2Sox]

Agreed.

Disrespectful.

Done with this thread.

Peace.

PS. DHEA is part of HPTA. You still don't get it...

GD,
First I want to apologize to you and the other members of this forum. You have been incredibly generous with your time and knowledge - as have they. Looking back on this thread I can see that sometimes, my mouth has run ahead of my good sense.

Humility is a good thing to have and I need more of it, and I've got much more learning to do.

Peace,
2Sox

Edit: I just noticed something. That comment I made about "liars and statistics" was definitely NOT intended in any way towards you or anyone else on this forum. It was something I heard as a freshman in college and it came to mind because of what was in "conclusion" in that article. That was the ONLY way it was meant. I did not mean to imply anything and I definitely did not mean to offend you in any way. Again, my apologies.

[kelkel]

Thank you for clarifying. I was hoping that was where it was directed.

[steroid.com 1]

GD,
First I want to apologize to you and the other members of this forum. You have been incredibly generous with your time and knowledge - as have they. Looking back on this thread I can see that sometimes, my mouth has run ahead of my good sense.

Humility is a good thing to have and I need more of it, and I've got much more learning to do.

Peace,
2Sox

Edit: I just noticed something. That comment I made about "liars and statistics" was definitely NOT intended in any way towards you or anyone else on this forum. It was something I heard as a freshman in college and it came to mind because of what was in "conclusion" in that article. That was the ONLY way it was meant. I did not mean to imply anything and I definitely did not mean to offend you in any way. Again, my apologies.

All good my friend

[Vettester]

GD,
First I want to apologize to you and the other members of this forum. You have been incredibly generous with your time and knowledge - as have they. Looking back on this thread I can see that sometimes, my mouth has run ahead of my good sense.

Humility is a good thing to have and I need more of it, and I've got much more learning to do.

Peace,
2Sox

Edit: I just noticed something. That comment I made about "liars and statistics" was definitely NOT intended in any way towards you or anyone else on this forum. It was something I heard as a freshman in college and it came to mind because of what was in "conclusion" in that article. That was the ONLY way it was meant. I did not mean to imply anything and I definitely did not mean to offend you in any way. Again, my apologies.

I honestly didn't think you 'personally' directed that at GD or anyone else ... I believed that you were just looking at it from a standpoint of wanting more emperical information, as opposed to statistical data. That's how I perceived it anyways, but the Internet has a funny way of taking things out of context sometimes ...

On the hormonal pathways, what exactly doesn't make sense? Just take a close look at a pathway chart and you can see how everything starts and flows downstream. When taking testosterone , it only works at that level, then converts downstream to DHT via 5-AR, and into the various classes of estrogen. The anti-aging concept works at many levels of hormonal balance, which is crucial to achieve optimal well being. Not sure if this is quite the information you're trying to get?

[steroid.com 1]

I honestly didn't think you 'personally' directed that at GD or anyone else ... I believed that you were just looking at it from a standpoint of wanting more emperical information, as opposed to statistical data. That's how I perceived it anyways, but the Internet has a funny way of taking things out of context sometimes ...

On the hormonal pathways, what exactly doesn't make sense? Just take a close look at a pathway chart and you can see how everything starts and flows downstream. When taking testosterone, it only works at that level, then converts downstream to DHT via 5-AR, and into the various classes of estrogen. The anti-aging concept works at many levels of hormonal balance, which is crucial to achieve optimal well being. Not sure if this is quite the information you're trying to get?

Exactly Vette, and everything else upstream is blunted do primarily to the negative feedback loop mechanism and resulting HPTA suppression.

Why we need to back fill our pathways..

[Vettester]

Exactly Vette, and everything else upstream is blunted do primarily to the negative feedback loop mechanism and resulting HPTA suppression.

Why we need to back fill our pathways..

It would be like the Mississippi River running dry, and then everyone just figures to start filling it back up in St. Louis. Life would be good all the way down to the Gulf, but the folks in Minnesota, WI, IL ... would be sucking hind tit! It's an odd analogy, but if someone really studies the Mississippi River closely, you can see a lot of parallel to the hormonal pathway, as so many major rivers branch off from it, and yet other major rivers like the Platte as you go west.