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  1. #1
    trent2 is offline Banned
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    Help with BloodWork Please 20yrs old. GDevine? Kelkel?

    Havent been feeling normal for quite some time now. Had blood tests done and stuff came back perfect. Then a few weeks ago i started mentally feeling worse. Felt mentally restricted, not happy, had motivation to go out but nothing really made me happy and feel good like i used to get. In Feb last year i had a testosterone test done and it came back at 11.8 nmol (8-32) i was 19 years old. I didnt have any syptoms of low test etc so it didnt bother me. Then around a few months ago i woke up feeling garbage, Lerthagic, couldnt think, felt like i was hazy/dreaming etc. I put it down to sleep apnoea but havent had a sleeping study done. Anyway i bought a vial of test e300mg and started using 150mg a week. I felt no better! ive been using this for a little while now thought i would see if it made me feel better but nope nothing. Im not even sure if it was even test as my most recent bloods that i picked up yesterday show my test levels now at 9.0.nmol(8-32) Is it possible my estrogen(e2) levels are very high? So the 150mg of test was just converting to estrogen. i didnt use armidex or the likes because i didnt think i have high estrogen as i stil have a sex drive altho not as strong and my loads have decreased since last year big time! i havent got my tests back for E2 im still waiting on them! Anyways what could be the issue. I still dont feel quite normal. I will upload the pics. Help with BloodWork Please 20yrs old. GDevine? Kelkel?-20130511_213130.jpgHelp with BloodWork Please 20yrs old. GDevine? Kelkel?-20130511_213150.jpgHelp with BloodWork Please 20yrs old. GDevine? Kelkel?-20130511_213158.jpgHelp with BloodWork Please 20yrs old. GDevine? Kelkel?-20130511_213211.jpgHelp with BloodWork Please 20yrs old. GDevine? Kelkel?-20130511_213227.jpg

    also vitamin D came back low on my other blood tests but since then ive been on 5K ed. B12 was fine. Cortisol was fine.

    also waiting on TSH. T3 AND T4.I dont have the paperwork but the doc says there fine. But then again she tried to tell me 9.0 was fine for a 20yr old test levels till i told her no they are not. So now i have a referall to an endo.


    sorry i dont have free test either. I have to go in for a repeat blood test and will be testing free and total test aswell as oestrogen.

  2. #2
    trent2 is offline Banned
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    what is with my LH and FSH are they not responding or something? The range is between 1-10 mine is below 1? Is the < mean its below?

    thats not good is it?

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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    also sorry forgot to mention i took these tests a week after my 150mg(supposedly) test shot.

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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    bump

  5. #5
    Allaaro is offline Associate Member
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    You tried to self medicate at 19 or 20 to see if you felt better? Without any help trying to find out why....you just shoot test? You need to take a step back and find some medical help since if you do this yourself you're in for some trouble as you have LOTS to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allaaro View Post
    You tried to self medicate at 19 or 20 to see if you felt better? Without any help trying to find out why....you just shoot test? You need to take a step back and find some medical help since if you do this yourself you're in for some trouble as you have LOTS to learn.
    20..

  7. #7
    jomamma007 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by trent2 View Post
    20..
    Okay let me take a shot at this.

    So you felt okay when you first had your levels tested (albeit they were low). Then later you started getting symtpoms of low test so you decided to self medicate? Okay first off if you are now going to an endo you need to get off your self medication of testosterone as they can't really help if you are already self medicating, unless you are truthful about what you are doing currently.

    Do you have a prior history of prohormone or steroid usage, seems that way as you just put yourself on testosterone. If you think you have sleep apnea you need to get it tested man. Even if you are on testosterone, if you don't get that taken care of you will still have problems. Everyone who has low test just thinks taking some TRT will solve all there problems instead of finding out whats causing their low levels and adressing that first.

    Okay your lh and fsh are low because you are shut down, becasue you are injecting exogenous testosterone (meaninig your natural production of testosterone is off right now). You should get on some hcg if you decide to continue self medicating at 250ius 2-3x per week.

    Next your testosterone is almost certaintly not really 150mg but lower dosed as you are getting it underground. I say this becasue at 150 a week 90% of men would be abiove the scales of testosterone as a healthy man naturally produces 70mgs a week.

    Your prolactin is high, which could be a sign of a pituitary tumor which could be why your test was low in the first place. WE REALLY NEED THE BLOODWORK YOU HAD PRIOR TO INJECTING YOURSELF!
    Last edited by jomamma007; 05-12-2013 at 08:50 AM.

  8. #8
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    Really need to see complete BW to assess this properly. Particularly BW from just before you began to self-inject test. See the list of BW in the "Finding A Doc" sticky thread and request that if at all possible along with a full thyroid panel. Skip LH/FSH as they are tanked as you're HPTA is shut down due to the exogenous test.

    I don't like you're prolactin level being at the upper end. Gives rise to suspicions of a pituitary issue if your pre-TRT LH/FSH level is low as well. An MRI may be in order to rule this in or out. When it comes to why levels are low on exogenous test we need to know when your blood was pulled relative to your injection. Another point to consider is that if it's UGL test then it's always possible it's junk.



    ps: nicely said Jomamma!
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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    Thanks for the replys fellas. So my LH and FSH are bad? Why the doc tell me there fine then? HMM. Kelkel its very hard trying to even have bloodwork done where i live. You get questioned and told you dont need it etc etc im just happy i got what i have. SO if the test im shooting is real why are my levels at 9? I would think they would be off the chart or at least 32nmol the very highest. The only bloodwork i have is febuary last year. My test levels were 3 points higher than now. 11.8. Im sorry i have no other bloodwork that shows my test levels. Only the one i have now and the feb one(prior to self medicating myself). The bloods ive posted were done 1 week after my test shot. Exactly 1 week. i was due for another test shot later that day but took the bloods before it so yes 1 week. I have TSH T3 and T4 thats all i have for thyroid and E2 ill post them up when i have them in the next day or so. What does it mean when my LH and FSH are low? Im not producing sperm or what? I have to see an ENDO shortly im making an appointement soon.
    I have follow up bloods tomorrow and ill post them up in the next day or so. i did have another test shot last thursday. Yes i will stop self injecting seeing as it doesnt seem to be doing anything anyway,Yes kelkel it is a UGL test TESTE300MG/ML so i was doing half a ml every thursday. I dont have PRE lh/fsh resutls only TEST levels aswell as PRe TSH levels which were also done last feb that were around 3.18 from memory so that was quite high. Then i had tsh done again last feb and they were 2.00 which was lower and was fine.

  10. #10
    trent2 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomamma007 View Post
    Okay let me take a shot at this.

    So you felt okay when you first had your levels tested (albeit they were low). Then later you started getting symtpoms of low test so you decided to self medicate? Okay first off if you are now going to an endo you need to get off your self medication of testosterone as they can't really help if you are already self medicating, unless you are truthful about what you are doing currently.

    Do you have a prior history of prohormone or steroid usage, seems that way as you just put yourself on testosterone. If you think you have sleep apnea you need to get it tested man. Even if you are on testosterone, if you don't get that taken care of you will still have problems. Everyone who has low test just thinks taking some TRT will solve all there problems instead of finding out whats causing their low levels and adressing that first.

    Okay your lh and fsh are low because you are shut down, becasue you are injecting exogenous testosterone (meaninig your natural production of testosterone is off right now). You should get on some hcg if you decide to continue self medicating at 250ius 2-3x per week.

    Next your testosterone is almost certaintly not really 150mg but lower dosed as you are getting it underground. I say this becasue at 150 a week 90% of men would be abiove the scales of testosterone as a healthy man naturally produces 70mgs a week.

    Your prolactin is high, which could be a sign of a pituitary tumor which could be why your test was low in the first place. WE REALLY NEED THE BLOODWORK YOU HAD PRIOR TO INJECTING YOURSELF!

    As stated sorry man i dont have a lot of PRE bloods done as there hard to get here. I only have pre test and pre TSH levels. Pre test was as i said 11.8 and TSH was 3.18.

  11. #11
    trent2 is offline Banned
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    SO i thought it might be a P tumor as i was googling around. What happens if it is? Do i end up on TRT?

  12. #12
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    Sorry you're struggling with this where you live. That stinks. Regarding LH/FSH. If not on test and they are low it can be an indicator of a pituitary abnormality. Meaning a possible adenoma (small tumor) which can shut down test production, elevate prolactin, cause GH issues and many other things. I happen to have one of the tumors and it shut down my test production only. A more common type is called a prolactinoma which, hence it's name, elevates prolactin which can in turn lower your T level.

    Basically LH stimulates the testies to make testosterone . FH = spermatogenisis.

    Yes, your TSH level is high which can be an indicator of hypothyroidism. That can also cause hypogonadism. As you know more panels need to be pulled as TSH is an indicator, but a relatively weak one. A more modern range for TSH is .3 - 3.0

    Re your shot and T levels. When you tested you'll be at trough level but it should be higher IMO. So, I question the quality of the substance somewhat.
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  13. #13
    trent2 is offline Banned
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    thanks for the reply kelkel. So what do you suggest i do now? Ill post up my TSH and E2 when i get them but im also due for a repeat blood test. Should i start by ruling out a MRI done on my pituatory and make sure its not a tumour? Is there any other tests you would like to see i can try and talk the doc into maybe adding some more on but they really need to be specific ones. I wont be able t ohave that whole list done in your thread maybe a couple more. How about SHGB? Will that have relevance?
    My TSH was in the 2 range so that was below 3 about 4 months ago when i had that checked but im awaiying on my newer one which ill upload today.
    Sometimes i can randomely get lerthagic and wanna sleep, sometimes feel really good then it doesnt last long etc. Still have a sex drive tho which is interisting.

    Could it be posssible i was sold deca instead of test hence the low test levels and high prolactin?

  14. #14
    trent2 is offline Banned
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    So to start ruling things out what should i do?

    1 Get an MRI done? What else?

  15. #15
    trent2 is offline Banned
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    Kelkel if my lh and fsh values are low due to being shut down from steroid use does that mean i can exclude any pituatory issues?

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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    but then again being on test my levels should be a lot higher. Is it true that even if your on testosterone like i am, it will still remain low if a pitiatery issue is present?

    OR should i just skip the MRI because im simply shut down? IDK what to do?
    dont wanna waste time and money i know the lh and fsh is low due to me being on steroids but not sure why my test is low. Makes no sense. i shold have high test and shut down lh and fsh. i have shutdown lh and fsh but low test. Whats the go with that.

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    Not at all. Pit tumors can have wide ranging effect like the prolactinoma's I mentioned. They are not "all or nothing" when it comes to shutting you down. Some can even cause increases in TSH (TSH Secreting Tumors.) Remember though that TSH is not a thyroid hormone.

    If I were in your shoes the first thing would be the MRI with as much BW as possible, thyroid in particular, prolactin, E2 and cortisol. Regarding why your doc said you were fine, well, many docs say you're fine if your in scale. Even if it's the bottom of the scale and you have the levels of a 90 yr old. Most don't know hormones.
    Last edited by kelkel; 05-13-2013 at 09:20 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trent2 View Post
    but then again being on test my levels should be a lot higher. Is it true that even if your on testosterone like i am, it will still remain low if a pitiatery issue is present? No. I have a pit tumor. Exogenous test will raise your levels

    OR should i just skip the MRI because im simply shut down? IDK what to do? Absolutely not. You need to find the root of the problem and address it
    dont wanna waste time and money i know the lh and fsh is low due to me being on steroids but not sure why my test is low. Makes no sense. i shold have high test and shut down lh and fsh. i have shutdown lh and fsh but low test. Whats the go with that.
    Run another Total T and Free T test about 3 days after your injection when you should be peaked. Then you'll know if your UGL test is junk or not.
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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Not at all. Pit tumors can have wide ranging effect like the prolactinoma's I mentioned. They are not "all or nothing" when it comes to shutting you down. Some can even cause increases in TSH (TSH Secreting Tumors.) Remember though that TSH is not a thyroid hormone.

    If I were in your shoes the first think would be the MRI with as much BW as possible, thyroid in particular, prolactin, E2 and cortisol. Regarding why your doc said you were fine, well, many docs say you're fine if your in scale. Even if it's the bottom of the scale and you have the levels of a 90 yr old. Most don't know hormones.

    last time i had cortisol done it was in the middle of the range cant remember the numbers but i saw a very good doc for that. I will have E2 UPloaded shortly.. Prolactin i have uploaded at the top had that recently done as stated :P. what if it is a tumour? Do i end up on TRT? Or try a HCG /CLOMID/NOLVA restart. i was supposed to have sOME HCG on the way but it never showed up. ordered some nolva/clomid from ar-r so it shold be here in a lil while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Run another Total T and Free T test about 3 days after your injection when you should be peaked. Then you'll know if your UGL test is junk or not.
    that would be around today then.

  21. #21
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    If an MRI reveals a tumor it will be classified at either a micro or macro-adenoma. Macro is basically over 10mm. Example for you: my pituitary is 6mm (pea size) and my tumor is 2mm. Surgery is not usually performed unless it's a macro. Most all pit tumors are benign, btw. Normally they are treated with medication but if surgery is recommended it is done through the nose, as your pituitary sits at the base of your brain, behind your eyes.

    Will you end up on TRT? Depends on what pressure the tumor exerts on your pituitary and what imbalance it causes.

    Realize we are all just surmising here until further testing is performed.

    http://www.mayoclinic.org/pituitary-tumors/
    Last edited by kelkel; 05-12-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    [QUOTE=kelkel;6535363]If an MRI reveals a tumor it will be classified at either a micro or macro-adenoma. Macro is basically over 10mm. Example for you: my pituitary is 6mm (pea size) and my tumor is 2mm. Surgery is not usually performed unless it's a macro. Most all pit tumors are benign, btw. Normally they are treated with medication but if surgery is recommended it is done through the nose, as your pituitary sits at the base of your brain, behind your eyes.

    Will you end up on TRT? Depends on what pressure the tumor exerts on your pituitary and what imbalance it causes.

    Realize we are all just surmising here until further testing is performed.



    thanks bro. Appreciate all your help. Ill be baCK IN A BIT to post up the rest of my labs. TSH and E2 aswell as have the retest testerosterone labs done and ill post those in a few days. Ill make an appointment to an endo. suprisengly tho i havent lost muscle or weight. still in pretty good shape as im trying to put on mass atm, mass time for me.

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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    will a HCG NOLVA CLOMID PCt protocol have me up and running again?

  24. #24
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Wait a bit until you get all your BW to post up. That way we can see a bigger picture, as opposed to small pieces. And keep hitting the iron. Don't let numbers on a chart stop you!
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    trent2 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Wait a bit until you get all your BW to post up. That way we can see a bigger picture, as opposed to small pieces. And keep hitting the iron. Don't let numbers on a chart stop you!

    hey mate. i only have e2 and tsh to post up. thats all i could get. also have the repeat test to do today which is testosterine total. serum. testosterine free/sensative. serum. oestradiol. serum.

    i feel pretty shit atm tho. lerthagic and feel like sleeping.

  26. #26
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    still no e2 or t3 but bad newz

    t4 13.5(10-19

    TSH 4.49 (0.50- 4.00)

  27. #27
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    Sounds like you might be hypo (hypothyroidism) or have Hashimoto's. If your vitamin D levels are consistently low despite supplementation, that is a classic marker of Hashimoto's people who are unable to utilize vitamin D effectively. Often high dose supplementation is recommended in the emulsified form to prevent toxic tissue buildup. Another sign of Hashimoto's is if your TSH level readings cover a wide range over time.

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    the papers say something about subclinical or something. hyperthyroidism. So what does this mean now with my Tsh that high?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chronos View Post
    Sounds like you might be hypo (hypothyroidism) or have Hashimoto's. If your vitamin D levels are consistently low despite supplementation, that is a classic marker of Hashimoto's people who are unable to utilize vitamin D effectively. Often high dose supplementation is recommended in the emulsified form to prevent toxic tissue buildup. Another sign of Hashimoto's is if your TSH level readings cover a wide range over time.
    Last time i have VIT D checked it was 41 lol. 55-100 so i was mild deficint apparently. Been on 5k ed have stopped seeing as i dont think it did much!

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    should i try a NOLVA/CLOMID before i see the endo or just wait till i see him and not touch anything?
    including the test shot on thursdays?

  31. #31
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    Kelkel. Any reason why i still have a sex drive with such shit test levels? I can still get an erection tho not as strong TBH and cum/get aroused easily etc. Also wouldnt my LH/FSH be shutdown due to steroid use not from a pituatory isssue?

  32. #32
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    Sex drive is mental as well as physical. Consider yourself lucky.
    LH/FSH is normally tanked when on Test.
    A pituitary issue can also shut down T production. Took me to a 59 T level and dropping.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Sex drive is mental as well as physical. Consider yourself lucky.
    LH/FSH is normally tanked when on Test.
    A pituitary issue can also shut down T production. Took me to a 59 T level and dropping.
    so basically let me get this straight. Im on some form of anabolic weather that vial i was injecting was deca or test. My test is low but my LH AND fsh are shutdown due to this steroid not from anything else? Or could they be shut down due to something else? I jsut dont wanna waste moeny when i can get everything rolling again with a PCT. But yeh still confused as why my test is low when im on 150mg a week lol.

    ive never seen an endo before so if he doesnt know shit then ill have to get him to test things for me. Ill start with an MRI. if nothing is found then what? Good endos are hard to come by around my area! and when u do find good ones BOY are u waiting for a long time. Should i try a nolva/clomid protocol before i see him or? Iddont think i wanna end up on TRT to be honest.

    BUT answer this if u dont mind. If my test levels were 11.8 last year before i touched steroid. Would a pct bring them even higher or would they just gradually fall down again if thats what they were originally?
    and then i would requre trt to get them higher. I would like them at least in the 20 plus range TBH. And if i had to choose a trt form it would probably be reandron.

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    Kelkel so even if i inject 150mg test does that mean it wont go higher due to a tumour stopping the test? If you had a tumour or whatnot and injected test without removing the tumour would your test remain low? Sorta explains why 150mg test isnt doing much for me if its real. Sorry for the questions i just dont trust endos after hearing from many people on aussie forums there hard to come by and most dont even know what HCG is lol.

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    A pit tumor will not stop exogenous T from doing it's job. My tumor and I are quite close now. It goes everywhere with me.....
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    hey kelkel. Got my repeat test labs back. This was 3 days after the injeciotn like u told me in the above posts. well maybe 4 days after lets say 3-4 lol.

    Total Testosterone 17.4(8.3-30.2)
    SHBG 21nmol (17-66) is this bad or good? What exactly is SHBG and is it better to be higher or lower?
    Calculated Free Testosterone. 460 (225-725).

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    should i start on some caber to lower my prolactin? i do feel quite a bit better these days. Little bit of cognitive imparment but im going to put that down to sleep apnoea which ill have tested asap.

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    bump

  39. #39
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    Labs don't look bad but I'm not familiar with the scale used for your SHBG. This scale obviously has you low. It's best in the mid-range. SHBG is basically a protein in your blood that regulates test/estrogen. Sorta like the pituitary for the HPTA. Testosterone binds to shbg so to much or to little is not good. As stated, mid-range is best here.

    Some people are just genetically low in their shbg levels. There's really not much you can do about it other than if you're a trt'er and injecting twice per week it may be better to go once per week. Reason is when you inject test it suppresses shbg levels, so, the more often you inject = more suppression of shbg. Therefore injecting once per week can be better for those who struggle there. Caveat: if you feel fine don't worry about it.

    Re Prolactin. Yes. As I stated in a previous post if I was that high I'd be on .25mg caber twice per week. I actually run it most all the time as an adjunct to my protocol for the many benefits it offers. Written by my doctor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Labs don't look bad but I'm not familiar with the scale used for your SHBG. This scale obviously has you low. It's best in the mid-range. SHBG is basically a protein in your blood that regulates test/estrogen. Sorta like the pituitary for the HPTA. Testosterone binds to shbg so to much or to little is not good. As stated, mid-range is best here.

    Some people are just genetically low in their shbg levels. There's really not much you can do about it other than if you're a trt'er and injecting twice per week it may be better to go once per week. Reason is when you inject test it suppresses shbg levels, so, the more often you inject = more suppression of shbg. Therefore injecting once per week can be better for those who struggle there. Caveat: if you feel fine don't worry about it.

    Re Prolactin. Yes. As I stated in a previous post if I was that high I'd be on .25mg caber twice per week. I actually run it most all the time as an adjunct to my protocol for the many benefits it offers. Written by my doctor.
    will i notice anything from lowering my prolactin? as u said its quite high at 341. So does it look like the test i was using was real? Perhaps just underdosed? I still dont feel as normal as i did last year tho still a bit hazy but i think sleep apnea should be ruled out next as i do feel sometimes groggy after waking up etc so i should have that ruled out. What do u suggest i do now then?

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