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  1. #1
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    AI protocol question

    Very long story I will try to make it ahs short as possible.

    Started trt back in april.
    Protocol
    Cyp 200mg 1xweek
    Letro 1mg eod
    hcg 500 iu ed

    Within 1 month The letro tanked my E2 BW showed <20 pg/ml range is 20-75. I was tweaking to say the least I was ****ed up!

    At this point doc changed protocol.
    Cyp200 mg 2xW (e3.5 days)
    Anastrozole 1mg eod
    Hcg 250iu ed

    At first this was great! Finally had a sex drive, awesome erection quality, and just all around felt great!

    This lasted for all of about a month. About two weeks ago I started to notice sex drive dropping, then erection quality slowly decreased.
    I don't have another appointment until end of august and I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this....

    What Im thinking is because my anastrozole is hard to break in half . Should I just change it to 1mg every 3 days?

    If that doesn't help should I push it to e4d?
    I have seen that some of you say to take AI 24 hours after injection with 2xw protocol. Should I go ahead and switch to this? Or just continue to dial back slowly?

    Any and all suggestions and info are greatly appreciated! I'm still so new and just trying to get dialed in. I need all the help I can get!

  2. #2
    JohnGalt's Avatar
    JohnGalt is offline Junior Member
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    started at 200/wk with an AI without BW to see if your body would need it? that sounds like a very bad starting place to me. Just to confirm the changed protocol, is that 200 twicw a week (400 total) or 100 2xWK?

    I would think if the AI is tanking your E2, you need to lower the dosage. Also stay at 2xWK but at a much lower dosage and hopefully eliminate the need for an AI all together.

    I'm still learning all of this though, so I'll let the experts give better advice, just my thoughts on it.

    Good Luck!

  3. #3
    JohnGalt's Avatar
    JohnGalt is offline Junior Member
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    Also with the high starting amount of Cyp I think 500iu HCG daily is way overkill. Maybe 2-3 times a week at 250iu (also better on the wallet)

  4. #4
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    bigdippin is offline Associate Member
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    I'm no expert, but it seems your doses are way to high for trt. And I use a knife to cut my ai. I don't even attempt to break them.

  5. #5
    Trific's Avatar
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    Maybe get a pill cutter, they are cheap.

  6. #6
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Ok sorry 100mg 2xw....yes he got the bw before starting me on all protocols .

    I just need to know what would be the best way to start cutting back on my AI?
    For example should I try not taking it at all for a week then start @ 1mg 24hrs after each injection? This is where I am lost!

  7. #7
    sparverius is offline Junior Member
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    Anastrozole tablets cut well a pill cutter. I split mine into 8ths. It takes some care to get the pieces even. But if they are not just alternate big and small pieces or take the larger pieces 1 day after your injection when E levels are increasing.

    1mg EOD is probably too much. As is 200mg Test Cyp/week.

  8. #8
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Ohh and I do agree this doctors protocols are insane. I did find and consult a new doctor who is much better and knows his stuff! Although because of my age (29) and no past aas history he wants to take me off trt and try to find the exact cause. Which I believe is great although because of other reasons it would be way to much of a pain for me to do that at this very moment so he told me to come back when I'm ready.

    In a nut shell I'm treating my self for now except the BW and scripts.

  9. #9
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparverius View Post
    Anastrozole tablets cut well a pill cutter. I split mine into 8ths. It takes some care to get the pieces even. But if they are not just alternate big and small pieces or take the larger pieces 1 day after your injection when E levels are increasing.

    1mg EOD is probably too much. As is 200mg Test Cyp/week.
    I don't have my labs handy but I do recall that my free t was well below range and my overall was 301 the range on it was something like 200- 700. I'm only 29 and have never used aas.
    .

  10. #10
    Trific's Avatar
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    I'd try .5mg 24hr after each pin and check with blood work in a month and then adjust if necessary.

  11. #11
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Bump

  12. #12
    OdinsOtherSon's Avatar
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    I would assume that pinning is a non-issue for you...you may look into sub-q pinning of your test. It would require less volume per pin and more pins but for many guys it totally eliminates the need for an AI. Go to youtube and search, "Dr. John Crisler subcutaneous testosterone injection." If it doesn't eliminate your need for an AI, it could drastically reduce the amount needed. Naturally, you'd need to stay on an AI for a brief amount of time to deal with the E2 in your system now and it does sound as if your E2 may have crashed. 1mg adex eod is a LOT. If you don't wanna do the sub-q thing, get a pill cutter, then go get more bloods done to see where your E2 is at. My $0.02

  13. #13
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the help everyone.

    I guess my real question is .....
    I know my E2 is tanking ... what would be the best way to raise it, but without spiking it to fast or to high? Should i just start by half the dose but stay @ eod?

    What would be the ideal way to do this ?

  14. #14
    OdinsOtherSon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyP View Post
    Thanks for the help everyone.

    I guess my real question is .....
    I know my E2 is tanking ... what would be the best way to raise it, but without spiking it to fast or to high? Should i just start by half the dose but stay @ eod?

    What would be the ideal way to do this ?
    My thoughts would be to simply stop taking an AI altogether for a month or so. Your E2 will not spike just because you lay off the AI, especially since it's in the basement. It will take some weeks to begin coming back up. I would say, pay attention to the achy joints. When they begin to subside you should be experiencing a rise in E2. Adex is not a suicide inhibitor so it will fall away from the receptors over a few weeks along with producing more aromatase you should rebound rather quickly. But you really do need some BW done. If you don't wanna fool around with the doc, order a kit on line.

  15. #15
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Shouldn't I wait to get BW when I feel good again. That way I could get an Idea where my estrogen levels are the best for me?

  16. #16
    OdinsOtherSon's Avatar
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    Yes. I'd get BW 3 months from last BW at the latest. If you feel E2 "kicking in" before 3 months, go get BW. Your E2 "normal range" is probably around 0-40pg/mL. Thing is, many of us feel great with E2 at 50 while some will feel like crap at 50, and awesome at 20. That's why you need to know precisely where you are now, if you don't already.

  17. #17
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    It has only been a month and a half since last BW . I have a vacation coming up in two weeks! I really have got to make some adjustments fast so that i don't ruin my whole damn vacation!

    This is the plan: Drop the anastrozole until I feel like my estrogen has recovered to a healthy state at that point I will have BW done (if I'm not gone on vacation) if I'm not able to immediately have BW done I will start anastrozole back but only at .5 mg 24hours after injection until i can make it back to see the doc . Durring all of this I will pay very close attention to the onset of any signs of gyno or estrogen becoming to high.

    Does this sound like an effective plan?

  18. #18
    OdinsOtherSon's Avatar
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    the adex may still be too high at .5mg ed. Most guys will run adex .25mg eod while on a full blown cycle. I'd venture to say that's why your E2 has crashed....your doc put you on too high of a dose. So yeah, lay off for awhile...your E2 will not rebound in two weeks while you're on vaca! So you can rest easy there. But when you do feel the need or BW shows different, I would personally go back on adex at .25mg eod as a start. You can adjust from there if need be. Also, you may want to look into aromasin for your AI. You can get it through our site sponsor. It is GTG and is a much better product IMHO.

  19. #19
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Ok great! Thanks for all the help!

  20. #20
    ZenFitness is offline Associate Member
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    FWIW I was on 0.5mg EOD of adex for a bit and in a week it dropped my E2 to 9 (not the sensitive test, so it was likely even lower).

    I cut back to 0.5 mg 2X a week and had a blood test a couple of weeks later. My standard E2 was 21.4 and the sensitive was <3. I then went to 0.25mg 1X a week (where I am at currently). Oddly enough I'm just now starting to experience softer and slower wood... wondering if the E2 crash is just now catching up. Wood was fantastic about 3 weeks ago when I made the switch to 0.25mg.

    The crazy doc that put me on adex 0.5mg EOD to begin with suggested that lack of wood was my signal to stop, lol.

    Anyways, I say all this to indicate that even one week of the dose you are on will kill your E2 levels and send them down to the low single digits most likely.

  21. #21
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the info! I'm currently waiting for mine to rebound then i will start @.25 2x a week after injection.

    What does the rest of your protocol consist of?

  22. #22
    ZenFitness is offline Associate Member
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    When I started adex I was only on 100mg test cyp 1x a week.

    Shortly thereafter I split my 100 mg dose into a 50 mg dose 2X a week and added hCG 250 IUs 3X a week. The goal with splitting the test cyp injection was to make my levels as close to a normal biological level as possible and actively manage the E2 conversion. I'm 37 years old, so I'm especially thinking long term, but the hCG will likely increase some E2 as well so it works for that (hopefully) as well. I have my first blood test tomorrow under this change in protocol.

  23. #23
    2Sox's Avatar
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    Petey,
    It is my understanding that some people are "E converters" and also ai "over-responders". I'm both and I'm pretty sure there are many others out there. The say older men aromatase more readily and I fall into that category - I'm 65. I convert E easily and very small doses of ai's knock me on my ass too. So think about this in regard to yourself and your own dosing.

    I began on 100mg test cyp once a week and .5mg adex every 3.5 days. I couldn't keep eyes open the day of the ai. I had no idea what was happening - shot, pill - or what it was.
    I realized .5 was WAY too much.

    Now I'm on 4 pumps Androgel , 250iu hCG EOD, and .25mg adex E3D. The ai dose is perfect for me.

    I'm becoming desensitized to the gel so I'm going back to shots on my next visit.

    With that said, I've gained a very healthy respect for ai's.

    Just an FYI.

  24. #24
    OdinsOtherSon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Sox View Post
    Petey,
    It is my understanding that some people are "E converters" and also ai "over-responders". I'm both and I'm pretty sure there are many others out there. The say older men aromatase more readily and I fall into that category - I'm 65. I convert E easily and very small doses of ai's knock me on my ass too. So think about this in regard to yourself and your own dosing.

    I began on 100mg test cyp once a week and .5mg adex every 3.5 days. I couldn't keep eyes open the day of the ai. I had no idea what was happening - shot, pill - or what it was.
    I realized .5 was WAY too much.

    Now I'm on 4 pumps Androgel , 250iu hCG EOD, and .25mg adex E3D. The ai dose is perfect for me.

    I'm becoming desensitized to the gel so I'm going back to shots on my next visit.

    With that said, I've gained a very healthy respect for ai's.

    Just an FYI.
    The amount of test one converts to estrogen is relational to how much aromatase enzyme is active in the person's system.

  25. #25
    2Sox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OdinsOtherSon View Post
    The amount of test one converts to estrogen is relational to how much aromatase enzyme is active in the person's system.
    Sounds right. And each person is certainly very different.

  26. #26
    PeteyP is offline Junior Member
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    Update:

    It has been 1week since I have taken any anastrozole. I'm starting to feel a little better. Sex drive has picked up a bit. Wood quality has slightly increased.

    I'm beginning to wonder if I will even need an AI. I might be one of the people that don't need it. I guess time will tell!

  27. #27
    Pittsburgh412 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyP
    Update:

    It has been 1week since I have taken any anastrozole. I'm starting to feel a little better. Sex drive has picked up a bit. Wood quality has slightly increased.

    I'm beginning to wonder if I will even need an AI. I might be one of the people that don't need it. I guess time will tell!
    Be very careful with no AI, I haven't used my Arnidex in like a week either
    Joints feel much better
    Last edited by Pittsburgh412; 06-16-2013 at 10:15 AM.

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