Lowering T levels for TRT?

[StinkyFinga]

38 years old
5'10
185 kbs
13% BF
Baseline test levels 423

First, I know what I'm about to say is frowned upon but if you were in my shoes you might think twice. Years ago. I became very depressed, I was put on depression treatment and have been on them for many years now. I've been working out and have drastically improved my physical state of being but my mental state sucks. I'm always tired, I always need a nap during the day. I have no motivation to do things other than work (which I have no choice) and workout. I have very little libido. I'm always living in a cloud. My memory is terrible. Days just go by for me. It's a weird feeling to try and explain. I attribute that to my treatment They just create a fog and numb everything.

I got to research and found that it was possible I had low T so I made a decision to do my first cycle. I did my cycle and felt amazing. Everything improved. HHowever after the cycle, with prop PCT I went right back to feeling like crap. I actually felt worse mentally because I finally saw there was something that made me feel better than I can ever remember feeling.

I tried to power through it but it got worse. I finally saw my doc, he tested my levels and they were at my baseline. Which I established pre cycle. So i was recovered from cycle. He basically told me he couldn't help me and it was just my depression and to up my treatments. There is no chance of me using my treatment. No freaking way! He said my test is normal but failed to see my symptoms and that (in my opinion) 420 test level at 8am is low for a (just turned) 38 year old male.
So, now I have an endo appt. I'm currently running test prop for 8 weeks. My cycle ends a week before my appt. I'm wondering if stopping a week before my appt. Without starting PCT. Will be enough to drop my levels below normal.
Is having low test numbers enough? My Lh and FSH will likely be low also. I could really use some guidance. I want TRT. I want to get off treatment and most of all I want to be happy and feel better.

Ps. I am an opiate addict. Clean for 4 years. Off suboxone for 2.

[Buddyguy]

Ok we'll figure out what test props half life is and divide the number by 2 (half) for how many days it is.. I guess anything below 50mg a week would be enough. But I'm no expert

Btw this is some shitty timing on you're part that's for sure...

[StinkyFinga]

Actually it's the opposite. I timed it so that my levels would be crashed at the time of test. I'm just not sure how many days prior to the test would be enough. I'm currently taking 75mg ED. If I need more than 7 days I will stop my cycle as early as it takes. TRT is long term and more important to me than finishing all 8 weeks of a cycle. My ultimate goal is to feel better and get away from antidepressants.

[Buddyguy]

Yea screw antidepressants been there done that..

Well hopefully ausinite comes by n saves ur arse! Lol

[StinkyFinga]

Buddyguy thanks for saying that. Even my wife thinks I need to get away from them. I tried once and I was a wreck. When on cycle I didn't need them. I hope someone saves me too lol. I don't want to live like this anymore. I've seen the better life when on and I want more. I just don't want to cycle high test amounts year round. I would bet getting into high 600s would make an improvement if I could achieve that level mid day. Mornings are best for me. I crash hard late morning early afternoon. Like clockwork

[phaedo]

Did you have any thyroid labs ran? Preferably a whole panel?

[StinkyFinga]

Thyroid checked out fine. Lipids are fine. Based on lab reference range technically my test is fine even though on the low side of normal.

[Buddyguy]

Buddyguy thanks for saying that. Even my wife thinks I need to get away from them. I tried once and I was a wreck. When on cycle I didn't need them. I hope someone saves me too lol. I don't want to live like this anymore. I've seen the better life when on and I want more. I just don't want to cycle high test amounts year round. I would bet getting into high 600s would make an improvement if I could achieve that level mid day. Mornings are best for me. I crash hard late morning early afternoon. Like clockwork

I had extreme depression and was prescribed Effexor.i took it for a couple months and it made me feel not myself. I started drinking on it as we'll. with that combo I was in an extremely manic state..anyways My testosterone did come back low even before the boozing and prescription drugs and I eventually had enough of being a crazy bastard lol. But ya when coming off it totally f'd you. I ended up getting androgel prescribed to me by my endo, but the guys useless he didn't even check my blood to see my test levels while on the gel. Been to other specialists in my area as well..no good. So next week I'm gonna pick up a couple vials of testosterone from a guy and selfs prescribe and do my own blood work. Hopefully the guys on the forum will help out!

[Buddyguy]

Most people would think its stupid and irresponsible. But these are the people hi don't understand the mind state guys like us are in and I personally feel I've for NOTHING to lose I honestly dot even care I it kills me at this point..but I'm sure it won't :P

[StinkyFinga]

Most people would think its stupid and irresponsible. But these are the people hi don't understand the mind state guys like us are in and I personally feel I've for NOTHING to lose I honestly dot even care I it kills me at this point..but I'm sure it won't :P

I thought about self prescribing but my fear is if I'm sick or hurt I can't be fully honest about the fact I'm using test. It could jeopardize my insurance. Although not being able to remember what I said ten minutes ago because of the fog might outweigh any of that. I wish docs would treat the symptoms and not the number. Book smart doctors is what they are. No practical common sense. The hypocritical oath needs to be rewritten since most doctors truly don't follow it.

Anyway, I digress. Is there anyone out there that can help me here?

Ps. I'm on Wellbutrin and lexapro

[kelkel]

Curious what your Free T and shbg levels are?

[StinkyFinga]

That I have no clue on. The doc never checked. My pre cycle labs didn't include that either.

[kelkel]

You need full blood work. Not just total T. Including a full thyroid panel. A good example is in the Finding A Doc sticky thread at the top of this forum.

[powerlifterty16]

You need full blood work. Not just total T. Including a full thyroid panel. A good example is in the Finding A Doc sticky thread at the top of this forum.

i think ive only had my shbg checked once in the last 5 yrs...that was this current bw im getting results tomorrow.

[powerlifterty16]

I thought about self prescribing but my fear is if I'm sick or hurt I can't be fully honest about the fact I'm using test. It could jeopardize my insurance. Although not being able to remember what I said ten minutes ago because of the fog might outweigh any of that. I wish docs would treat the symptoms and not the number. Book smart doctors is what they are. No practical common sense. The hypocritical oath needs to be rewritten since most doctors truly don't follow it.

Anyway, I digress. Is there anyone out there that can help me here?

Ps. I'm on Wellbutrin and lexapro

welbutrin and0 llexapro will kill t

[Buddyguy]

Yup^

[StinkyFinga]

welbutrin and0 llexapro will kill t

Seriously? I did not know that. So something that is supposed to help me is just magnifying my problem. Any studies on this. I'd love to show my doc

[powerlifterty16]

Seriously? I did not know that. So something that is supposed to help me is just magnifying my problem. Any studies on this. I'd love to show my doc

maybe low t mike could find some, i personally dont have any..but it's pretty safe to say most meds kill t =(

[phaedo]

but it's pretty safe to say most meds kill t =(

Ummmm.... o.O

OP: I suppose you wouldn't have any labs before your opiate abuse? Moreover, how's your diet and exercise? Do you feel like you live a generally healthy lifestyle?

[StinkyFinga]

No labs before opiates. My diet is clean. I workout 4 or 5 days a week.

Still not sure about when to end my cycle before the appt. I'm hoping the endo will order a full lab workup as suggested in the sticky thread.

[Low Testosterone]

If your total levels are where they are and you're having symptoms of low testosterone , then the total testosterone number is meaningless. You need to know what your Free levels are.

And yes, using testosterone propionate as you described and then having an appointment with the doctor a week later will have your levels very low, extremely but it will be a false number. If you're interested in actual TRT, you need to proceed where you're at now. You need to proceed with your natural baseline, not a false acquired number.

I would also advise NOT going to an endocrinologist. Maybe you have one of the 7 good ones out there but the rest are terrible when it comes to TRT. Most endocrinologist will only look at Total T, they will not look at Free T too often and most will never consider looking at Estradiol throughout your treatment.

[powerlifterty16]

If your total levels are where they are and you're having symptoms of low testosterone , then the total testosterone number is meaningless. You need to know what your Free levels are.

And yes, using testosterone propionate as you described and then having an appointment with the doctor a week later will have your levels very low, extremely but it will be a false number. If you're interested in actual TRT, you need to proceed where you're at now. You need to proceed with your natural baseline, not a false acquired number.

I would also advise NOT going to an endocrinologist. Maybe you have one of the 7 good ones out there but the rest are terrible when it comes to TRT. Most endocrinologist will only look at Total T, they will not look at Free T too often and most will never consider looking at Estradiol throughout your treatment.

do ou agree that urologists are better? do most of them look at estradiol?

[dreadnok89]

See if their is any low testosterone doctors near you

[dreadnok89]

Your already low in my opinion. Especially if you feel like shit. Between legal and illegal drugs your pretty much done. I was after being on lexapro for 5 years

[Low Testosterone]

do ou agree that urologists are better? do most of them look at estradiol?

Most doctors know very little about testosterone therapy , regardless of their title. The doctors that do understand testosterone therapy do so because they made an effort to after medical school. This isn't going to be something most endocrinologist or even many urologist are going to undertake as their ego already says they know all there is to know about testosterone.

[StinkyFinga]

Most doctors know very little about testosterone therapy, regardless of their title. The doctors that do understand testosterone therapy do so because they made an effort to after medical school. This isn't going to be something most endocrinologist or even many urologist are going to undertake as their ego already says they know all there is to know about testosterone.

I am sure you are right and it's honestly why I don't even want to go and see what they have to say. From all the research I've done, all the help available online it seems I could do a better job than most docs balancing things off.

I have a sour taste in my mouth from past experiences. I have had back problems for years and for years I went from doctor to doctor trying to find one that could actually help me. I don't want to go through that again. Oddly enough, it wasn't a doctor that finally helped me, it was a great physical therapist. To be honest, if I could afford it, I would gladly do the LowT treatment advertised here but i can't so I have to search for alternative routes.

Any doctor should be required to follow through with up to date continuing education. Peoples lives are at stake here, not doctors ego's. They chose this field to help people with hormonal imbalances. They should not be complacent and should be doing whatever it takes to stay current. A car salesman can't sell new car models while only knowing about a 1978 model. I'm in the engineering field and I need to stay current with new methodology. Any profession does so why do doctors get away with it? Ok, there you go...you got me on another rant session.

[Low Testosterone]

I am sure you are right and it's honestly why I don't even want to go and see what they have to say. From all the research I've done, all the help available online it seems I could do a better job than most docs balancing things off.

I have a sour taste in my mouth from past experiences. I have had back problems for years and for years I went from doctor to doctor trying to find one that could actually help me. I don't want to go through that again. Oddly enough, it wasn't a doctor that finally helped me, it was a great physical therapist. To be honest, if I could afford it, I would gladly do the LowT treatment advertised here but i can't so I have to search for alternative routes.

Any doctor should be required to follow through with up to date continuing education. Peoples lives are at stake here, not doctors ego's. They chose this field to help people with hormonal imbalances. They should not be complacent and should be doing whatever it takes to stay current. A car salesman can't sell new car models while only knowing about a 1978 model. I'm in the engineering field and I need to stay current with new methodology. Any profession does so why do doctors get away with it? Ok, there you go...you got me on another rant session.

Here's how most doctors think:

*Erectile Dysfunction: Give him viagra
*Loss of Libido: He's just getting older, give him viagra
*Tired: He probably needs sleeping pills so he can sleep better
*High Cholesterol: Let's give him statins
*Diabetic: Let's give him more insulin
*Depressed: Let's give him anti-depresants
*He's lost mass and strength: Why do you need mass and strength?

It goes on and on but do you see the pattern?

[StinkyFinga]

]

You are spot on. When I told my primary my issues he asked me if I wanted v-eye-a-gra (sorry spam softwatr) and told me I had severe depression. Pissed me off. I'm not feeling very good about my appointment now more than ever. To make matters worse it's a women endo. Not sure of they will be more sympathetic or clueless

[2Sox]

]

You are spot on. When I told my primary my issues he asked me if I wanted v-eye-a-gra (sorry spam softwatr) and told me I had severe depression. Pissed me off. I'm not feeling very good about my appointment now more than ever. To make matters worse it's a women endo. Not sure of they will be more sympathetic or clueless

Have you considered breaking the appointment and seeing a urologist?

Where are you located? If we knew, maybe one of us on the forum could recommend a doc for you.

[Low Testosterone]

]

You are spot on. When I told my primary my issues he asked me if I wanted v-eye-a-gra (sorry spam softwatr) and told me I had severe depression. Pissed me off. I'm not feeling very good about my appointment now more than ever. To make matters worse it's a women endo. Not sure of they will be more sympathetic or clueless

If you need TRT, your doctor being a man or woman should not make any difference whatsoever. All that matters is they understand TRT.

[StinkyFinga]

Have you considered breaking the appointment and seeing a urologist?

Where are you located? If we knew, maybe one of us on the forum could recommend a doc for you.

I haven't. I figured I would see how it goes with the endo and go from there. I'm In the boston area

[StinkyFinga]

Well, I met with my psychiatrist today and laid it out on the table. I feel so much better. She was very understanding and was offering to do research for me. Looked up in a few books while I was there and even offered to run labs for me so I would have them at the time of my appt rather than having to get them after the appt. She was telling me how some doctors are still in the mentality of it's low, it's normal, aka low normal but now others are being more proactive and if it's low normal, it's sub-acute and they will treat it sooner rather than wait until it gets lower. Why can't all doctors be like that?!?!?!

Anyway, we talked about a plan and IF..a BIG IF. This endo helps me and gets me going on TRT then my psychiatrist will help get me off the anti-depressants. She also confirmed that after being on these for a while, it can create disfunction like this. It's not necessarily tied to testosterone but there are other factors involved and combined they create issues. She said I'm certainly not the first person she has heard say the symptoms to her.

I know I shouldn't, but I'm still planning on stopping my cycle 7 days before my appt and see what happens. If nothing, I'll try it the natural way next time.

[powerlifterty16]

I am sure you are right and it's honestly why I don't even want to go and see what they have to say. From all the research I've done, all the help available online it seems I could do a better job than most docs balancing things off.

I have a sour taste in my mouth from past experiences. I have had back problems for years and for years I went from doctor to doctor trying to find one that could actually help me. I don't want to go through that again. Oddly enough, it wasn't a doctor that finally helped me, it was a great physical therapist. To be honest, if I could afford it, I would gladly do the LowT treatment advertised here but i can't so I have to search for alternative routes.

Any doctor should be required to follow through with up to date continuing education. Peoples lives are at stake here, not doctors ego's. They chose this field to help people with hormonal imbalances. They should not be complacent and should be doing whatever it takes to stay current. A car salesman can't sell new car models while only knowing about a 1978 model. I'm in the engineering field and I need to stay current with new methodology. Any profession does so why do doctors get away with it? Ok, there you go...you got me on another rant session.

more people need to report these incompetent drs and we also need to one star their vitals.com profiles.

[StinkyFinga]

still very confused on what to do about my appt. My levels will be low, so will my LH and FSH.
I just looked at my last labs and my LH was 7.4 (range of 1.7 - 8.6) and FSH was 3.3 (range of 1.5 - 12.4)