20 and test level at 361

[Crazy yetty]

Stats 6'4 220 14% bf
Played sports my whole life
Been lifting weights since I was 16-17 ,
Also do muay thai/jiu jitsu and mma at a gym.
Im a little concerned here guys im only 20 and never taken a cycle of steroids , I've only done supplements like whey protein, creatine, nitrix oxide, I did do a test booster once... but still besides the point I should not have such a low T level at 20!

I dont have libido issues, I tend to gain muscle really well and im strong, im a little confused here guys, should I go on trt ? Why are my levels so low if I build muscle well and dont have erection issues?

[Crazy yetty]

Bump please....

[kelkel]

Patience Crazy. Test boosters can suppress your natural testosterone production. How close to your BW did you take the booster?
Also, can you post your full BW? We may be able to see an issue this way and point you in the right direction. MANY things can cause low T.

And welcome to the forum!

[Crazy yetty]

Booster was over a year ago, no all they tested was my testosterone , not a full hormone panel, to expsensive

[kelkel]

Well Total T by itself is rather worthless. You need to know free T. I don't know where you're from but request complete BW, not just hormones. An example is in the Finding A Doc Sticky thread at the top of this forum. If your doc won't comply then take a look at private md labs .com. (put it together as site filter sometimes blocks it.) They're relatively cheap and no script is needed. See if they're in your area.

[Crazy yetty]

Would my doctor do a free t check?

[kelkel]

Your doc can order anything within reason. Insurance should pay for it. Free T is what does the work for us. Main thing is full BW like in the article I suggested. You need to know what is causing it and correct it. It's not about just adding exogenous Testosterone at your age. That would not be prudent and would do more harm than good. Find the problem. Fix it.

[Zodiac85]

Would my doctor do a free t check?

I'm going through a similar search for a cause right now (in another thread if you care to check it out). My dr has been very cool so far about ordering any bw I need/want. We'll see what she says when I ask for an MRI. I suspect she may want to recommend me to an endo first, but we'll see.

[powerlifterty16]

Stats 6'4 220 14% bf
Played sports my whole life
Been lifting weights since I was 16-17 ,
Also do muay thai/jiu jitsu and mma at a gym.
Im a little concerned here guys im only 20 and never taken a cycle of steroids , I've only done supplements like whey protein, creatine, nitrix oxide, I did do a test booster once... but still besides the point I should not have such a low T level at 20!

I dont have libido issues, I tend to gain muscle really well and im strong, im a little confused here guys, should I go on trt ? Why are my levels so low if I build muscle well and dont have erection issues?

your level is definitley abnormal and low however calm down and realize it isnt uncommon. Many guys in their 20s have low t, and it is becoming more recognized.
i turn 24 in a few days, and i have low t myself. i bench around 315, if my back wasnt injured my dl would be 500, and i'm 6'2-3 200-205 pounds and im always described as being muscular by people around me. This is on a less than perfect diet.
I unlike you do notice i have a harder time than most gaining muscle though...it's taken me a long time to get these results., and i dont do cardio lie you do(muy thai)

I sometimes wonder if levels of 360ish are normal for some guys. I feel tired and have memory problems, but it's not like im a zombie...at least not everyday.

[Megalodon6]

Would my doctor do a free t check?

Makes me so mad when docs do this!

[powerlifterty16]

Makes me so mad when docs do this!

huh?

[Megalodon6]

huh?

Refuse to do blood work for patients

[Crazy yetty]

So free test is what matter, if im correct that's the testosterone not binded to protein? If my base test is 361 wouldn't that mean my free t is low to??

[crazy mike]

Refuse to do blood work for patients

All too common, the dick heads !! ...crazy mike

[Megalodon6]

All too common, the dick heads !! ...crazy mike

Preach it crazy mike

[Crazy yetty]

So if I were to take hcg and clomid to tty and restore my hpta, would I go back down to a low level once I stopped taking hcg and clomid?

[MuscleInk]

Refuse to do blood work for patients

In some cases, in other cases its the lack of insurance approvals. As a physician, nothing irks me more when I order tests that an insurance company declines! I don't need a damn insurance company telling me what my patients need or don't need. If I'm ordering the damn test, it's needed!!!!!!

[Megalodon6]

In some cases, in other cases its the lack of insurance approvals. As a physician, nothing irks me more when I order tests that an insurance company declines! I don't need a damn insurance company telling me what my patients need or don't need. If I'm ordering the damn test, it's needed!!!!!!

I agree with you. But I went to a urologist about six months ago and he basically told me I was crazy for wanting him to test for free test and lh

[Xaxist]

So if I were to take hcg and clomid to tty and restore my hpta, would I go back down to a low level once I stopped taking hcg and clomid?

Do NOT take HCG , it will suppress your HPTA due to negative feedback at the pituitary gland.
Clomid is a bad idea, too. Get a more complete blood test first; sometimes you just have to push your doc a bit.

[kelkel]

I agree with you. But I went to a urologist about six months ago and he basically told me I was crazy for wanting him to test for free test and lh

Don't see him again.

[Megalodon6]

Don't see him again.

Haven't went back and don't plan on it! Waiting on my results on my current blood work just went to the lab today.

[Megalodon6]

Do NOT take HCG , it will suppress your HPTA due to negative feedback at the pituitary gland.
Clomid is a bad idea, too. Get a more complete blood test first; sometimes you just have to push your doc a bit.

Why would clomid be bad ?

[MuscleInk]

I agree with you. But I went to a urologist about six months ago and he basically told me I was crazy for wanting him to test for free test and lh

My guess is he's more concerned about his liability. If you're lower end of normal it's still normal and most people won't notice a big difference. In fitness and body building I understand the desire for hire testosterone . For normal daily living though, many docs would say normal is normal so live with it.

I would do as Kel advises. Get other opinions. There are those that will treat.

[powerlifterty16]

In some cases, in other cases its the lack of insurance approvals. As a physician, nothing irks me more when I order tests that an insurance company declines! I don't need a damn insurance company telling me what my patients need or don't need. If I'm ordering the damn test, it's needed!!!!!!

you're a physician? that's awesome man

[powerlifterty16]

My guess is he's more concerned about his liability. If you're lower end of normal it's still normal and most people won't notice a big difference. In fitness and body building I understand the desire for hire testosterone . For normal daily living though, many docs would say normal is normal so live with it.

I would do as Kel advises. Get other opinions. There are those that will treat.

i'm surprised to hear you say this viewpoint. I would think you would be more progressive. How can you say that there would be no subjective difference between a low normal level and a normal one? The normal scale is taken by averaging the t levels of adult males aged 18-100 and coming up witha range. The range is 348-1197 give or take the lab. The range also includes men with thyroid issues, pituitary issues, diabetits, aksa all unhealthy men.
It makes sense that the men at the bottom of the chart with 348 levels are OLD men with health conditions. How can someone feel similar at that level vs the level of the healthy 20 yr old with 850? That's a 3x diff nearly.

[qscgugcsq]

My guess is he's more concerned about his liability. If you're lower end of normal it's still normal and most people won't notice a big difference. In fitness and body building I understand the desire for hire testosterone . For normal daily living though, many docs would say normal is normal so live with it.

I would do as Kel advises. Get other opinions. There are those that will treat.

I respecfully disagree, my Free T as been tested to 371 and I felt like shit, no motivation, erectile dysfonction(depressing by itself...), any muscle gain was hard to say the least.

I follow a protocol to raise my test and it went to 470. saw a good difference, was still pretty low but still saw a big difference.

and like powerlifty said, the range include many unhealthy subject. so especially at 20 we should expect nothing less that the top range.

however I do agree that people react differently.(I have a friend who started TRT at 450ng cause he was feeling like total shit. and me at 370 it was bearable.

[powerlifterty16]

I respecfully disagree, my Free T as been tested to 371ng and I felt like shit, no motivation, erectile dysfonction(depressing by itself...), any muscle gain was hard to say the least.

I follow a protocol to raise my test and it went to 470. saw a good difference, was still pretty low but still saw a big difference.

and like powerlifty said, the range include many unhealthy subject. so especially at 20 we should expect nothing less that the top range.

however I do agree that people react differently.(I have a friend who started TRT at 450ng cause he was feeling like total shit. and me at 370 it was bearable.

if your FREE T was 371, your prob is not low t..i think you mean TOTAL t

[qscgugcsq]

if your FREE T was 371, your prob is not low t..i think you mean TOTAL t

maybe it was in nmol I dont remember the scale, but it was in the bottom range and yes it was free T

[Megalodon6]

you're a physician? that's awesome man

I wish he was my doc

[powerlifterty16]

maybe it was in nmol I dont remember the scale, but it was in the bottom range and yes it was free T

could you post a screenshot of it? im curious?

[powerlifterty16]

I wish he was my doc

im sure he's a nice guy but it doesnt sound like he treats low t in normal range

[qscgugcsq]

could you post a screenshot of it? im curious?

sure check your PM

[Crazy yetty]

If I didnt eat until late like 11:30 am-12:30 pm and tested around 2 could it have been low due to that?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

If I didnt eat until late like 11:30 am-12:30 pm and tested around 2 could it have been low due to that?

A natural male's testosterone peaks around 8am.
You easily could've tested 150 points higher if you tested in the morning.
Please see the attached chart.
I would recommend getting more bloodword done at 8-10am after a good nights sleep.

[powerlifterty16]

If I didnt eat until late like 11:30 am-12:30 pm and tested around 2 could it have been low due to that?

no....
fasting is good for testosterone tests, and ive had tests done right when i woke up, and others done 2-3 hours after, and the difference was 41 points...aka nothing.
btw if you wake up at 10:59 and have it tested at 11 that is better than waking up at 3 am and having it tested at 8am...8am is not the same for everyone, although to conciliate the doc, i tested at 8am.

you definitely need more bw though. t levels do vary, and when considering trt, multiple low levels should be had, and low levels of free t as well, and certain baselines prior to trt need to be established to monitor changes.

You on't sound as if you have any symptoms though, and even though your levels are low they arent that bad, so idk if you should take trt.

im on hcg now and feel very strong, still tired though

just reread your ques, and as long as you ate well the night before you should be alright. what time did you wake up? if you woke up at 8, then yeah 2 is going to be a little lower, maybe 80 points, but i doubt it will be more. If you woke up at 10, it wont be that much lower at 2.

[MuscleInk]

i'm surprised to hear you say this viewpoint. I would think you would be more progressive. How can you say that there would be no subjective difference between a low normal level and a normal one? The normal scale is taken by averaging the t levels of adult males aged 18-100 and coming up witha range. The range is 348-1197 give or take the lab. The range also includes men with thyroid issues, pituitary issues, diabetits, aksa all unhealthy men.
It makes sense that the men at the bottom of the chart with 348 levels are OLD men with health conditions. How can someone feel similar at that level vs the level of the healthy 20 yr old with 850? That's a 3x diff nearly.

I agree with YOU. I didn't say I believe there is no subjective difference. I was simply providing the current rationale behind some MDs' view of TRT and its necessity. The highest my endogenous T reaches is 162 and that was before I ever used gear. Now, after a few cycles, the highest it typically goes is 52!!!!! I know exactly how low T feels and believe you me, it is extremely unpleasant when its well below normal ranges.

From the perspective of many (not all, thankfully) MDs, the risks of TRT (elevated hemoglobin, RBCs, LDL, TC, TG, decreased HDL, hair loss, acne, and psychological changes in some cases) far outweigh the benefits for men still within normal ranges - even when at the lower end of normal.

Many men seeking TRT for low T are looking for improvements in quality of life. Most men on THIS board are the exception. They want higher free T levels so they can feel better and see some physical improvements and in many (not every) case, use TRT to maintain levels between cycles. Many men seeking TRT do not fit in that category. Moreover, I know very few MDs personally (I would of course be the exception) that would endorse or condone TRT as a "bridge" to maintain normal levels between anabolic cycles.

I understand what you are saying. I'm not in disagreement, nor did I state that view, but remember, to a physician, a normal range is a normal range even if low and men on this board would not be representative of most men using TRT IMO.

[MuscleInk]

I respecfully disagree, my Free T as been tested to 371 and I felt like shit, no motivation, erectile dysfonction(depressing by itself...), any muscle gain was hard to say the least.

I follow a protocol to raise my test and it went to 470. saw a good difference, was still pretty low but still saw a big difference.

and like powerlifty said, the range include many unhealthy subject. so especially at 20 we should expect nothing less that the top range.

however I do agree that people react differently.(I have a friend who started TRT at 450ng cause he was feeling like total shit. and me at 370 it was bearable.

See my response to Powerlifty. It addresses your comments. I never said I agree with the approach MDs take. That would be hypocritical of me to be on this board and take that position on low T. Come on man, that's naive. I'm a huge proponent of TRT and I never indicated otherwise. I'm simply explaining why many MDs won't condone TRT in some individuals. It certainly is NOT my view.

[powerlifterty16]

I agree with YOU. I didn't say I believe there is no subjective difference. I was simply providing the current rationale behind some MDs' view of TRT and its necessity. The highest my endogenous T reaches is 162 and that was before I ever used gear. Now, after a few cycles, the highest it typically goes is 52!!!!! I know exactly how low T feels and believe you me, it is extremely unpleasant when its well below normal ranges.

From the perspective of many (not all, thankfully) MDs, the risks of TRT (elevated hemoglobin, RBCs, LDL, TC, TG, decreased HDL, hair loss, acne, and psychological changes in some cases) far outweigh the benefits for men still within normal ranges - even when at the lower end of normal.

Many men seeking TRT for low T are looking for improvements in quality of life. Most men on THIS board are the exception. They want higher free T levels so they can feel better and see some physical improvements and in many (not every) case, use TRT to maintain levels between cycles. Many men seeking TRT do not fit in that category. Moreover, I know very few MDs personally (I would of course be the exception) that would endorse or condone TRT as a "bridge" to maintain normal levels between anabolic cycles.

I understand what you are saying. I'm not in disagreement, nor did I state that view, but remember, to a physician, a normal range is a normal range even if low and men on this board would not be representative of most men using TRT IMO.

in your opinion, do you think there are cholesterol or hair loss risks when going from a low level of 200-400 up to a level of 700-1000?

[MuscleInk]

in your opinion, do you think there are cholesterol or hair loss risks when going from a low level of 200-400 up to a level of 700-1000?

That's difficult to say. Each patient is different and every case needs to managed individually. I will say however, that if a man comes to me for TRT with a low normal or below normal free T and his bf% is greater that 20 and/or has a history of hypertension, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, or other factors, I'm certainly not going to allow his testosterone to go much beyond an upper range of 500-550 initially and my treatment plan would involve dose adjustments to keep him around that level. Now, if he brings his bf% down and I'm comfortable with his blood work, then I would consider a marginal increase.

Age is another variable that has to be weighted in on the treatment plan. Most 50+ year old men don't need a circulating testosterone level equivalent to a 19 year, although I'm sure many would like to. Again, the patient's overall health and well being have to be weighed against the risks. If treating him to a range of 450-500 was a substantial improvement and all other health factors (including QOL assessments) remained normal or were improved beyond baseline T levels, I would find it very difficult to argue he needs more than the dose that is keeping his levels at midrange.

[kelkel]

That's difficult to say. Each patient is different and every case needs to managed individually. I will say however, that if a man comes to me for TRT with a low normal or below normal free T and his bf% is greater that 20 and/or has a history of hypertension, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, or other factors, I'm certainly not going to allow his testosterone to go much beyond an upper range of 500-550 initially and my treatment plan would involve dose adjustments to keep him around that level. Now, if he brings his bf% down and I'm comfortable with his blood work, then I would consider a marginal increase.

Age is another variable that has to be weighted in on the treatment plan. Most 50+ year old men don't need a circulating testosterone level equivalent to a 19 year, although I'm sure many would like to. Again, the patient's overall health and well being have to be weighed against the risks. If treating him to a range of 450-500 was a substantial improvement and all other health factors (including QOL assessments) remained normal or were improved beyond baseline T levels, I would find it very difficult to argue he needs more than the dose that is keeping his levels at midrange.

Yes I do.