Depression: A Discussion

[2Sox]

There has been A LOT of talk about this on the forums, so much so that I think it would be useful to begin a thread on the subject so that we can exchange our views and ideas, with the hope that we can useful to each other.

We all know that this is one of the signature symptoms of hypogonadism. Even though it's clear that not all men experience it, it can be a terribly debilitating condition for those who do. WITH low T or NOT with low T, we've all experienced it at some point in our lives. With that said, I feel some individuals with this state of mind can often use low T as an excuse to indulge themselves and say in essence, "It's all low T and there's nothing much I can do about it." We seem to forget that we have the power of choice. We do NOT have to sink into that deep, dark hole. Eli Siegel, the American philosopher and founder of Aesthetic Realism, asked this question - one that I have found extremely useful personally and in my career as a teacher:

"Is this true: no matter how much of a case one has against the world—its unkindness, its disorder, its ugliness, its meaninglessness—one has to do all one can to like it, or one will weaken oneself?"

I don't want to be simplistic, but we ALWAYS have that choice to see the beauty in the world around us - and WANT to see it - or to see it as a useless mess. I learned that one choice comes from the biggest, deepest thing in us - to like the world (and things and people in it), respect it. The other choice comes from contempt - defined by Aesthetic Realism as "the lessening of things not oneself as a means of self increase, as one sees it." Contempt can give us a boost and make us feel very important - for awhile. But it always makes us feel ashamed - and often depressed. If you think about it, a person who is depressed is the center of the universe, the most important thing in the world - to himself. His "self" is the thing that he thinks about most and is most concerned about. The rest of the world takes a back seat - way back.

It's a wonderful thing that respect always makes for a great pride and self respect. A person who does all he can to like the world and find value and meaning in the things in it will never feel depressed. It's just impossible.

I hope this is useful to those who have gotten to a place where they didn't know what to do - or have considered taking a pharmacological solution, which cannot ever address the central cause - because the medical field has absolutely no clue about the cause.

Needless to say, I couldn't say these things unless I had first hand experience.

[PJS19]

2sox, Im going to disagree with a lot of what you said, with respect.

Here is the problem with calling the mental illness depression, depression. When someone says, "today sucks because of (fill in the blank) it is making me depressed" That is not a mental illness. You are arguing for people without mental illness to chose to see the light and work harder to find the positives. I completely agree with that point. But, people with the mental illness depression, dont have that choice.

To say that everyone has depression at one time in their life is completely false. Thats like saying everyone gets diabetes at one time during their life. People get "depressed" at many times in their life, but they do not suffer from the mental illness depression. There is such a huge difference in the two, and unless you have experienced the mental illness version, its hard to understand. People with depression arent depressed. In many cases they are painfully numb. Depression is more of a non feeling, than it is a feeling of being depressed or sad. You say people have the choice to not fall into the dark hole. I agree, for people who dont have a mental illness...

Hell Id kill to feel depressed right now. Im cognitively aware of how beautiful things in life can be. How much of a gift life is. How precious it is. But that doesnt mean my brain is going to allow me to experience those things. I think its asinine for doctors to prescribe pills for people who are "depressed" over SOMETHING. That is so so much different than having the mental illness, depression.

[Machdiesel]

After reading many posts about people upset trt didn't cure their depression, or people using trt as an anti-depressant I agree. I also struggle with mental health so didn't post or respond, but I think it's foolish to put all your eggs in trt for mental Health. Could it be low T, sure, but it could also be a million otner things. One thing I will say is trt has a sort of snowball affect. More energy, you start workng out more consistently, eating better, and all if a sudden you feel great. But maybe exercise , diet, and lifestyle changes would have helped without trt . Mental health is so complex and Literly every aspect of your life affects it

[2Sox]

2sox, Im going to disagree with a lot of what you said, with respect.

Here is the problem with calling the mental illness depression, depression. When someone says, "today sucks because of (fill in the blank) it is making me depressed" That is not a mental illness. You are arguing for people without mental illness to chose to see the light and work harder to find the positives. I completely agree with that point. But, people with the mental illness depression, dont have that choice.

To say that everyone has depression at one time in their life is completely false. Thats like saying everyone gets diabetes at one time during their life. People get "depressed" at many times in their life, but they do not suffer from the mental illness depression. There is such a huge difference in the two, and unless you have experienced the mental illness version, its hard to understand. People with depression arent depressed. In many cases they are painfully numb. Depression is more of a non feeling, than it is a feeling of being depressed or sad. You say people have the choice to not fall into the dark hole. I agree, for people who dont have a mental illness...

Hell Id kill to feel depressed right now. Im cognitively aware of how beautiful things in life can be. How much of a gift life is. How precious it is. But that doesnt mean my brain is going to allow me to experience those things. I think its asinine for doctors to prescribe pills for people who are "depressed" over SOMETHING. That is so so much different than having the mental illness, depression.

We can certainly talk about labels; they are useful to some degree. But "mental illness" is not in a territory of its own. It comes from something. It began somewhere. Can it be that "contempt causes insanity" taken to its furthest degree? I first heard this idea from Aesthetic Realism during my research. It fascinated me and I pursued it further. Is it possible that something that started in a person's mind with "I had a terrible day. Everything was crap", escalate, take it further and after having this state of mind for a period of time, this person ending up on medications and then being institutionalized? Look at my original post again. I argue there is no difference between mental illness and ordinary, everyday contempt and - taken to its final degree - insanity.

[Beethoven]

I agree that there is a difference between regular depression over someone or some event or circumstance and mental illness. There are chemical imbalances that are out of immediate control that we have no choice over. Although regular type depression CAN lead to an illness,(where you probably do have a choice) the illness resulting from imbalances in our brain might not. I had a bout with it due to an anxiety disorder, and I can tell you that "choices" aren't necessarily clear. Although I eventually chose to help myself, it didn't come without some chemical help. The person with the "illness" sometimes can not see that choice and is often a friend or family member who helps. Even then without the help of chemicals they do not move on. Sort of like trt, we cant wish our test levels up but rather use the help of our Drs and meds to do so. As it relates to trt, some antidepressants can cause ED and even hypogonadism. In this case, being that the hypogonadim was probably caused by the depression, trt might not necessarily cure the depression. But we all tend to feel as the "center" of the universe because of our survival mechanism as humans. Even to love another or respect everything else still comes from our love of self. when there is no love of self, the rest cannot exist.

[2Sox]

I agree that there is a difference between regular depression over someone or some event or circumstance and mental illness. There are chemical imbalances that are out of immediate control that we have no choice over. Although regular type depression CAN lead to an illness,(where you probably do have a choice) the illness resulting from imbalances in our brain might not. I had a bout with it due to an anxiety disorder, and I can tell you that "choices" aren't necessarily clear. Although I eventually chose to help myself, it didn't come without some chemical help. The person with the "illness" sometimes can not see that choice and is often a friend or family member who helps. Even then without the help of chemicals they do not move on. Sort of like trt, we cant wish our test levels up but rather use the help of our Drs and meds to do so. As it relates to trt, some antidepressants can cause ED and even hypogonadism. In this case, being that the hypogonadim was probably caused by the depression, trt might not necessarily cure the depression. But we all tend to feel as the "center" of the universe because of our survival mechanism as humans. Even to love another or respect everything else still comes from our love of self. when there is no love of self, the rest cannot exist.

I would argue that we have been brainwashed by the medical establishment into accepting this idea about "chemical imbalance" as being the cause of mental insufficiency because they have no idea how else to explain it. Not a clue. Yes, it has been seen that people with mental illnesses do have differences in their brain chemistry. I would argue - from what I have learned - that it could very well be the person's attitude to the world (that I spoke about in my original post) that is the cause of this chemical imbalance - NOT the other way around. Otherwise, you would have to believe that there is some mysterious switch that turns on in a person's brain to cause their difficulty. Genetic predisposition? Possibly. But to my knowledge, there is absolutely no proof to support this theory. I would suggest that depression, along with all other maladies of the mind, begin with conscious choices.

Further, let me posit some questions to you and others who mistakenly believe that in order to love others, we must first love ourselves:
On what basis does a person love or approve of him or herself? Do we "work" at it? If so, how? Do we just look into the mirror and say, "I love you. I respect you. I approve of you." Absolute nonsense. Self respect has to come from somewhere. We have to have a basis.

I learned that we can only approve of ourselves in direct proportion to how fair we are to things that are NOT ourselves - people and things. The only way we can truly care for ourselves, respect ourselves, is when we are just to things and people in the outside world. This is a principle of Aesthetic Realism that I have tested for over thirty years - and have found to be true, without exception. Don't just believe me. Think about it and test it for yourself. When we see something true for ourselves is when it takes on real value.

[APIs]

In the old days it was said; he/she has issues. Today it's referred to as; having a chemical imbalance. Different times & different labels is all. That doesnt mean it does not exist. As a child growing up our Mother had depression & mental issues at one point in-time and our family suffered from it greatly. No offense, but I find it absurd for a layman to tell me that our Mother had a choice in what transpired so many years ago before she got better. Especially since I lived through it...

Regardless, the only time I experience depression now is when I have to spend an afternoon with my future Mother-in-Law...

[2Sox]

In the old days it was said; he/she has issues. Today it's referred to as; having a chemical imbalance. Different times & different labels is all. That doesnt mean it does not exist. As a child growing up our Mother had depression & mental issues at one point in-time and our family suffered from it greatly. No offense, but I find it absurd for a layman to tell me that our Mother had a choice in what transpired so many years ago before she got better. Especially since I lived through it...

Regardless, the only time I experience depression now is when I have to spend an afternoon with my future Mother-in-Law...
Love it!

API,

I welcome debate on this subject. In fact I'm thrilled to have the opportunity.

A "layman" is a term wide open for interpretation. At the risk of being immodest, and because of what I have studied and tested for these many years - and the source from which I learned it - (And let me preface this by saying I don't hold any degrees in psychology and I haven't studied medicine. So in this sense I am a "layman") I believe I've learned the essential things about the study of mind that psychiatry and the so called professioinals haven't a clue about. And I'm still learning. I too had a close family member who suffered from what is know termed "bi-polar disorder" and I saw the principals I've described as true and playing out every day in our home - with my mother too.

My post was not to ask people to accept blindly but to have people use their critical minds to think about things and really test what I said. An important thing I learned is that if something is true, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Looking at things from that perspective goes directly against snobbery in ourselves.

[Beethoven]

In your original post, I think we're talking about two different states, one of them clinical depression. The person who looks at the world as unjust, ugly and unfair doesn't necessarily mean he's depressed. Hell some politicians are happy to say that all the time as to justify what they are trying to sell. Now when we talk clinical depression, it depends on the person and the circumstance for the depression. A bad marriage break up, the loss of a child or other close family member can throw anyone into a loop. Sure, maybe we have a choice then, but there are those among us who for no explainable reason are clinically depressed don't have a choice. I still remember Brandon Marshall says he has"personality disorder", that used to be called an a$$hole back in the day. He has a choice, instead of owning up to the fact he is an ahole, he hides behind a label. He is not mentally ill. So we first have to define exactly what it is we're discussing. Not everything labelled depression is clinical depression.

[2Sox]

In your original post, I think we're talking about two different states, one of them clinical depression. The person who looks at the world as unjust, ugly and unfair doesn't necessarily mean he's depressed. Hell some politicians are happy to say that all the time as to justify what they are trying to sell. Now when we talk clinical depression, it depends on the person and the circumstance for the depression. A bad marriage break up, the loss of a child or other close family member can throw anyone into a loop. Sure, maybe we have a choice then, but there are those among us who for no explainable reason are clinically depressed don't have a choice. I still remember Brandon Marshall says he has"personality disorder", that used to be called an a$$hole back in the day. He has a choice, instead of owning up to the fact he is an ahole, he hides behind a label. He is not mentally ill. So we first have to define exactly what it is we're discussing. Not everything labelled depression is clinical depression.

If we must include a label I would suggest that the "depressions" you talk about are exactly the same but differ only in degree. Let's take all the mystery out of this. These labels exist to a large degree, in my opinion, so that the medical establishment can "own" the diagnosis, have something to talk about and feel more comfortable talking about it. (They are useful to us too so that we know what we're talking about.) I still maintain that the cause of any depression still derives from moment to moment choices an individual makes which all have a cumulative, debilitating effect over time.....Remember, we don't know the thoughts that go on in a person's mind that made for the condition we see. There is a whole history that we are completely unaware of. Think about yourself and all the thoughts that you have to yourself over the course of a day. Then extend this to a lifetime. Depression doesn't suddenly come from nowhere.

[Beethoven]

Well this is almost the chicken and the egg. Are they depressed because of all the bad choices they have made or do they make bad choices because of the depression? Let's take the world of trt for example. Someone with low t in a marriage or a long term relationship experiences ED, along with low energy, libido etc. That relationship starts getting strained and the man generally feels down. Now suppose he sees a physician who mis diagnoses him and you've got a recipe for disaster. We've seen it here a few times. He made a choice to see the Dr but not to have low t or ED. He most certainly didn't want to strain the relationship. So it was not his choice that his body doesn't produce testosterone . We are now living in a day where there is trt. More Drs do know and treat it. There are places like this one to help educate and in some instances even provide a bit of therapy if you will. Back in our day, low t caused many marriages to fall apart, maybe even lives were lost. I'm sure those men didn't choose to have that happen.

[BallSak]

This may be comparing apples to oranges, but I know for a fact that people who experience a traumatic brain injury or repeated head trauma can get depression and there is not really much they can do about it, no matter their outlook on life is or how great their quality of life is.

What about people who have experienced extreme emotional distress? A veteran of war for example.

I agree with 2sox that we are ultimately responsible for our mental and emotional state, but there are certain events both physically and emotionally that can scar your brain, and it won't work the same again, where your only choice is to manage the depression, rather than completely ridding yourself of it.

[Beethoven]

This may be comparing apples to oranges, but I know for a fact that people who experience a traumatic brain injury or repeated head trauma can get depression and there is not really much they can do about it, no matter their outlook on life is or how great their quality of life is.

What about people who have experienced extreme emotional distress? A veteran of war for example.

I agree with 2sox that we are ultimately responsible for our mental and emotional state, but there are certain events both physically and emotionally that can scar your brain, and it won't work the same again, where your only choice is to manage the depression, rather than completely ridding yourself of it.

I agree. Many things can happen to us in life that not necessarily came about as a choice. Depression can take such a wide range that I thought for the purpose of this discussion on this forum, being trt, I would relate it to that. But so many things now a days are labelled as depression that who can keep track.

[2Sox]

This may be comparing apples to oranges, but I know for a fact that people who experience a traumatic brain injury or repeated head trauma can get depression and there is not really much they can do about it, no matter their outlook on life is or how great their quality of life is.

What about people who have experienced extreme emotional distress? A veteran of war for example.

I agree with 2sox that we are ultimately responsible for our mental and emotional state, but there are certain events both physically and emotionally that can scar your brain, and it won't work the same again, where your only choice is to manage the depression, rather than completely ridding yourself of it.

You make some really good points. But I don't completely agree that "there is not much we can do about it." Most of us are very fortunate not to have gone through the pain of those you mention; we can never really know what such individuals feel. But I believe if a person still has consciousness, he still has the power of choice. And he can choose to like the world. I think this is one of the things we most underestimate in ourselves. Is it good to ask, Can conscious choices over time alter the chemistry of the brain? It's fascinating to think about.

I don't want to present myself as an expert or someone who has all the answers. I'm neither. I've written about some philosphic principles - those of Aesthetic Realism - that I have seen as true - and I'm still learning. I can only go by what I've experienced for myself, tested, and observed as true over many years. But it would be interesting to see how these principles would apply to the individuals you've mentioned above. And from what I've seen, I have every confidence that they would be just as true about people with trauma as they would with any of us. Again, this is my educated opinion. The body and mind have an amazing ability to heal themselves - if there is help and the will to heal; to choose to like the world and find meaning in it. From what I know, "the will to get better" has been written of very often in the medical literature.