Amount of time for new BW After starting AI

**Machdiesel** · 04-10-2014, 10:43 AM

So I started my exemestane on 4/4 and would like to get BW Done to make sure everything is where I need it. Is 4/17 too soon to get an accurate reading. I will be getting e2, total/ free test, SHBG, prolactin, dhea-s,dht

**Beethoven** · 04-11-2014, 07:23 AM

I have always waited at least four weeks.

**Machdiesel** · 04-11-2014, 09:18 AM

Ok thanks

**2Sox** · 04-11-2014, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Machdiesel

So I started my exemestane on 4/4 and would like to get BW Done to make sure everything is where I need it. Is 4/17 too soon to get an accurate reading. I will be getting e2, total/ free test, SHBG, prolactin, dhea-s,dht

Take a look at this thread for a very good discussion on Exemestane:
http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...-protocol.html

Here is some handy information that applies and likely will answer your question:

-24 hours after one 25mg dose estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%
-72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below baseline even though the drug itself is almost completely eliminated
-120 hours after initial dose estrogen levels return to baseline (without rebounding)

I'd be curious what your dosing protocol is and what you decide regarding BW timing.

**FapOLantern** · 04-12-2014, 11:30 AM

Two weeks is the sweet spot for me, at least for Arimidex .

**2Sox** · 04-13-2014, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by FapOLantern

Two weeks is the sweet spot for me, at least for Arimidex.

Half life of anastrozole is 3 days. Half life of exemestane is 9 hours. There's a pretty bad rebound with anastrozole also. None with exemestane. Can't really make a good comparison of the two because of this.

Mach,
I had the same question in my mind and the only thing I can honestly say is that I'd just test when my BW was due whenever it was. And heck, this is all dosing and frequency dependent anyway. (FYI: I took 6.25mg Exemestane the night before my BW the next day - which I'm waiting on. )

So, IMO, I don't think 4/17 is to soon at all for you.

**Docd187123** · 04-13-2014, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

Take a look at this thread for a very good discussion on Exemestane:
http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...-protocol.html

Here is some handy information that applies and likely will answer your question:

-24 hours after one 25mg dose estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%
-72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below baseline even though the drug itself is almost completely eliminated
-120 hours after initial dose estrogen levels return to baseline (without rebounding)

I'd be curious what your dosing protocol is and what you decide regarding BW timing.

I'm pretty sure Those are estrogen levels not estradiol just so you know.

**2Sox** · 04-13-2014, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

I'm pretty sure Those are estrogen levels not estradiol just so you know.

For our purpose here regarding Aromasin , why would the difference in serum concentration of the two matter? Or is it just a matter of terminology? I'm really asking.

**Docd187123** · 04-13-2014, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

For our purpose here regarding Aromasin, why would the difference in serum concentration of the two matter? Or is it just a matter of terminology? I'm really asking.

Estrogen = E1 + E2 + E3

Estradiol is only E2

**Docd187123** · 04-13-2014, 05:16 PM

It lowers total estrogens by that much not estradiol. The biggest decrease is in estrone and estrone metabolites I believe not estradiol which is what we're usually concerned with.

**2Sox** · 04-13-2014, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

It lowers total estrogens by that much not estradiol. The biggest decrease is in estrone and estrone metabolites I believe not estradiol which is what we're usually concerned with.

Please expand on this. So does that mean we shouldn't be pleased with the results of estrogen reduction describe above? Can you clarify? Again, I'm really asking?

Maybe we should go back to the original article referenced in the other thread to see what was really meant?

**2Sox** · 04-13-2014, 05:49 PM

I'm not sure the differentiation is a concern. Since the action of exemestane destroys the aromatase enzyme itself, by the very action of the drug (reducing aromatization) serum estradiol (estrogen) is reduced. This is what we want.

**Docd187123** · 04-13-2014, 05:59 PM

Results
Study I: dose finding
Analysis of the data on hormone concentrations after the 25- and 50-mg doses showed no difference in any of the parameters measured due to an order effect; hence, the data were grouped for analysis by dose. The 25- and 50-mg doses of daily exemestane had comparable effects in suppressing circulating estrogen concentrations, with 38 ± 24% (mean ± sd; P = 0.002 vs. baseline) and 32 ± 29% (P = 0.008) decreases in estradiol concentrations, 71 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) and 74 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) decreases in estrone concentrations, and 45 ± 27% (P = 0.004) and 51 ± 20% (P = 0.02) decreases in estrone sulfate concentrations after doses of 25 and 50 mg, respectively. There was an increase in circulating testosterone concentrations after both 25 mg (60 ± 58%; P = 0.001) and 50 mg (56 ± 48%; P = 0.003) exemestane. Androstenedione concentrations were increased as well after 25 mg (32 ± 36%; P = 0.004) and 50 mg (47 ± 59%; P = 0.052) exemestane, respectively (Fig. 1 and Table 2). SHBG concentrations were decreased by 21 ± 7% (P = 0.0003) and 19 ± 39% (P = 0.18) at 25 and 50 mg exemestane, respectively. Free testosterone concentrations were increased by 117 ± 74% (P = 0.0001) and 154 ± 95% (P < 0.0001) at both doses, due to the decrease in SHBG and the increase in total testosterone. No effect on circulating dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate was observed at either dose. Serum cortisol concentrations increased significantly (38 ± 39%; P = 0.008) with the 25-mg dose, but not the 50-mg dose, yet the increase was well within the normal range of cortisol concentrations. Plasma IGF-I decreased significantly (−13 ± 11%; P = 0.008) after the 25-mg dose, but not the 50-mg dose. Similarly, IGF-binding protein-3 showed a trend toward lower concentrations after the 25-mg dose (−7 ± 13%; P = 0.09), but not the 50-mg dose. There were no changes in circulating serum triglycerides, cholesterol, or LDL or HDL cholesterol concentrations with either dose of exemestane. Table 2 summarizes the results of the hormonal and lipid data.

I was specifically referencing the 70-80% figure you had posted about. TOTAL Estrogen drops by around that much but estradiol is only suppressed by 38 +/- 24%

We want to reduce estradiol specifically. Aromasin is a weak inhibitor of E2 compared to adex and letro.

**2Sox** · 04-13-2014, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

I was specifically referencing the 70-80% figure you had posted about. TOTAL Estrogen drops by around that much but estradiol is only suppressed by 38 +/- 24%

We want to reduce estradiol specifically. Aromasin is a weak inhibitor of E2 compared to adex and letro.

Thank you for this. I think I'm beginning to get it. Aromasin works on the cause of the serum estrogen and estradiol. And Adex and Letro works on the effect. In other words, these two work on the already circulating estrogens. Whereas, Aromasin prevents it from getting to circulate. Am I getting it right?

Also, from what I understand, it's much easier to crash your E2 on Adex and Letro. They are the bigger guns with Letro being the biggest. Do you concur?

**Docd187123** · 04-13-2014, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

Thank you for this. I think I'm beginning to get it. Aromasin works on the cause of the serum estrogen and estradiol. And Adex and Letro works on the effect. In other words, these two work on the already circulating estrogens. Whereas, Aromasin prevents it from getting to circulate. Am I getting it right?

Also, from what I understand, it's much easier to crash your E2 on Adex and Letro. They are the bigger guns with Letro being the biggest. Do you concur?

Total Estrogen is E1 + E2 + E3. The figure you quoted about aromasin lower estrogens by 70-80% is misleading in a way which is what I was attempting to correct or explain. Aromasin does lower estrogen by 70-80% but this is bc it lowers estrone extremely well. Estrone is reduced by 74 +/- 12% which is where that 70-80% number. We are not concerned so much with estrone but with estradiol specifically, E2. The figure I quoted that e2 suppression is significantly lower.

I think you're confusing total estrogen with estradiol specifically. Estradiol is one type of estrogen. The 70-80% number is irrelevant to us. We are concerned with the 38 +/- 24% numbers which specifically refer to estradiol suppression.

They all bind to the aromatase enzyme and prevent conversion to varying degrees. I think adex and letro are much more potent and have a greater ability to suppress E2 yes.

**2Sox** · 04-13-2014, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

Total Estrogen is E1 + E2 + E3. The figure you quoted about aromasin lower estrogens by 70-80% is misleading in a way which is what I was attempting to correct or explain. Aromasin does lower estrogen by 70-80% but this is bc it lowers estrone extremely well. Estrone is reduced by 74 +/- 12% which is where that 70-80% number. We are not concerned so much with estrone but with estradiol specifically, E2. The figure I quoted that e2 suppression is significantly lower.

I think you're confusing total estrogen with estradiol specifically. Estradiol is one type of estrogen. The 70-80% number is irrelevant to us. We are concerned with the 38 +/- 24% numbers which specifically refer to estradiol suppression.

They all bind to the aromatase enzyme and prevent conversion to varying degrees. I think adex and letro are much more potent and have a greater ability to suppress E2 yes.

This is very useful. Thank you.

For the record - the figures contained in my post were not my quotes (as were clearly indicated). They appeared on another forum and were referenced from a study that I unfortunately cannot access. And I agree, they were misleading - particularly in light of what you clarified here.

**Machdiesel** · 04-14-2014, 07:11 AM

Ok so here's my experimenter so far. I started at 12.5 a day becuae of a slight gyno flare up. After 8 days I had no sides of low estrogen and felt really good. Sex drive was good but not 100%. I missed my dose yesterday and woke up with serious morning wood and higher sex drive. I'm thinking 6.25 won't be enough but 12.5 may be just slightly to much, gonna experiment. I can say that 12.5 doesn't crash me at all and im actually curious how I will dose an AI During my first blast, 25mg stane might not be enough, may have to use arimidex

Edit: also I'm having trouble cutting the pills in 1/4s. 1/2s is easy, but when cutting 1/4s I lose half the pill. They either crumble or fail apart

**Beethoven** · 04-14-2014, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Machdiesel

Ok so here's my experimenter so far. I started at 12.5 a day becuae of a slight gyno flare up. After 8 days I had no sides of low estrogen and felt really good. Sex drive was good but not 100%. I missed my dose yesterday and woke up with serious morning wood and higher sex drive. I'm thinking 6.25 won't be enough but 12.5 may be just slightly to much, gonna experiment. I can say that 12.5 doesn't crash me at all and im actually curious how I will dose an AI During my first blast, 25mg stane might not be enough, may have to use arimidex

Edit: also I'm having trouble cutting the pills in 1/4s. 1/2s is easy, but when cutting 1/4s I lose half the pill. They either crumble or fail apart

Mach I'm going through almost identical situation but with Anastrozole. This is important not only to finish getting dialed in, but as you pointed out, learning what the dose is for when I blast in the future, I have a better idea of how much I need.

Docd, 2sox, great info. Much appreciated.