Clomid experiment

[CarlosSemiDanger]

I was diagnosed having low testosterone roughly a year ago. The only symptom that I had was lack of energy. My GP put me into testosterone replacement therapy but the decision was reversed once Endo joined the case. After that Endo ordered multiple tests and finally concluded this Spring that I’m in normal levels even though I were in 200s. I did support those tests by reducing the intensity of my training and trying to have super-clean diet but that didn’t have a major impact. I started to train harder again during January.

As I violently disagreed with my Endo, I chose to do my own Clomid experiment and started to take 10mg Clomid ED after my April blood work. Since then my testosterone has come up to 600s and I feel a lot better – not like superman but normal in the sense that I have energy to do normal things.

I’m 42 years old 6” 220 pounds with BF~18%. I managed to put around 4 pounds more muscle in the last 7 months that’s odd considering my low T. Here is my blood work below. The free testosterone has been calculated in all cases but one and in that case nurse couldn’t tell the scale so I don’t have a clue what that stands for (scale or unit).

Aug '13 Nov'13 Jan'14 Apr'14 June'14

Total T 200 345 268 295 642

Total Range 249-836 249-836 249-836 250-1009 249-836
Free T 52.1
Free calc. 7.73 6.43 12.76
Free % 2.24% 2.40% 1.99%
Bio-avai 169 137 273.5
Bio-avai% 49.10% 51.20% 42.60%
SHBG 29 25 42
Albumin 4 3.9 3.9
LH 4 3.9
T4 Free 1

EDIT: My table is messed up (and didn't have clear path fixing it) but to explain the calculated values, SHBG, Albumin are only for Nov, Jan and June. LH is only for Nov and June.

I have few questions relating my case…

Q1: How is it possible for my testosterone to go up when my LH is stayed the same (what else should have I measured?)

Q2: Has any forum member been in Clomid for long-period of time?

Q3: What should I watch out when being in Clomid? Anything I should keep my eye on from bloodwork wise?

Q4: Any other blood work you suggest me doing the next time control time?

For next, I was thinking of reducing my Clomid dosage and do a test and then check where I stand? After that I was thinking of quitting Clomid (sometimes early next year) and see where my testosterone lands. If it sinks again then I either need to get somebody start TRT on me or get back on Clomid.

Does anybody have any other good ideas for suggested course of actions?

[rplante7]

I once tried the same thing for a shorter period of time. My T levels went up a small amount and LH & FSH went up to where they were above normal range per blood test

[numbere]

A1: Yes, it seems those with the best results from clomid therapy have low LH/FSH.

A2: The longest I've used clomid is 4 weeks.

A3: In my reading most sides have been ocular or mood related. It's suggested that before beginning clomid treatment that you have your retinal vein examined for thrombophilia. Thrombophilia is an abnormality that increases the risk of retinal blood clots. The cause of these clots is believed to be from high E2, which can be controlled with an AI. There is also the risk of blurred vision.

A4: No

These posts by Dr Jeffrey Dach have some great info regarding treating low T with clomid.

Clomid for Men with Low Testosterone Part One

Clomid For Men with Low Testosterone, Part Two

Clomid Adverse Side Effects Part Three

[dreadnok89]

T doesn't matter really, diet and constant exercise is the key. But it sure as he'll helps!

[pepous]

Great thread. Please keep continue with the experiment and continue with regular blood test too. Its very educative.

I tried on my own low dose of AI just for testosterone boost. It worked fine for about 2 months I felt much better than normal. Than I started having some mood swing. My testosterone a little decreased almost to initial level.

But I will have to try it once again.

[CarlosSemiDanger]

I got new bloodwork done (roughly three months after the previous one). I'm still taking 10mg ED Clomid and eating well and exercises regularly.

My current total T is 901 (in scale 249-836), SHBG 58, LH 6.2 and Estradiol 59 (taken the first time). My calculated free T is 15.1 (1.68%) and bio available is 331 (36.8%).

It seems that even my small dose of Clomid (I haven't changed dosage) has pumped up the values a lot over time so I'll be moving into 10mg EOD dosage (and probably stop taking completely at the beginning of December and then test early January again). Maybe that brings my SHBG and Estradiol into more sensible ranges. My free T hasn't come up that much even though my total T is roughly 50% over what it was at the last round.

[hawk14dl]

Awesome.

Try eod for a couple of months and get more bw done. If you're still good, then try e3.5d and repeat.

Sounds like you're having great success

[jimmyinkedup]

So far so good for you. Thats great. Looking forward to more updates.

[Joco71]

Is there any side effects to running clomid that long?

[CarlosSemiDanger]

There are some documented side-effect (besides increasing the testosterone :-)) that you can look up from numbere's response. I've seen on some forum pages some complaining mood changes, clouding in the vision and making men emotionally more sensitive to the level that they cry in movies and etc. It is perfectly OK for men to cry in movies but if you haven't done that before using Clomid then I would call that a side-effect.

There has been some long term studies of Clomid use and they didn't report any special side-effect but those are just more samples so one cannot make clinical conclusions on the result but they do give some data for individuals to weight in when considering Clomid as a choice for managing low T.

Typically, I've read people using much higher dosage (50mg per day) during PCT and in many studies so I believe the more extensive side-effects are associated with 5x dosage compared what I'm using. I have to say that I haven't really had any real side-effect yet. Certainly when I started Clomid, I imagined all kinds of things but I believe that my head was just messing with me. I cannot really say that I had any real side-effect. Certainly, if I don't adjust my current dosage and keep estrogen running wild, I will experience some negative side-effects (and thus I'm lowering my dosage).

Who knows what it will bring in the future but this was my choice to try how it works as it looks like I'm one step away from being TRT anyway but if this buys me few years more without TRT then I'll take it.

[Joco71]

Thanks for the response I ended up reading the articles posted above. Good luck !!

[mkt_cycle]

I was on Clomid (50MG daily) for over a year. I didn't have any side effects but it only raised my T somewhat. My baseline, like yours, was around 200 and it eventually got up to 400. But, all in all, it did its job and got me into 'normal' range.

[mkt_cycle]

After that Endo ordered multiple tests and finally concluded this Spring that I’m in normal levels even though I were in 200s.

Interesting. My uro said basically the same thing when I was around 300. Actually, his exact words were "300 is a great level". However, he's no idiot and he's one of the more respected uro's in my city. But, that's what he feels is a 'normal' and acceptable level. He has his reasons I guess.

[Pdxglide]

Interesting. My uro said basically the same thing when I was around 300. Actually, his exact words were "300 is a great level". However, he's no idiot and he's one of the more respected uro's in my city. But, that's what he feels is a 'normal' and acceptable level. He has his reasons I guess.

That's weird cause when I got put on TRT my level was at 330 and my doctor said that's low and put me on Test and HCG .

[CarlosSemiDanger]

I started to reduce my Clomid into roughly 10mg EOD. The later I did only 10mg twice week. Now I've been without Clomid for a month and took blood test.

My total T is 362, LH 3, SHBG 39. Basically, my free % is the lowest ever and just a bit over my lowest free value (lowest was 6.43 and my current value is 6.8). I think my SHBG is still high from Clomid era and LH is the lowest ever even though my total T is the best without Clomid.

What can I make of this? My testicles seems to be more responsive to LH after Clomid treatment (previously I managed to get only around 268-345 with LH being 4). However, my LH is tanked so total is not that high. Elevated SHBG is a mystery to me. It is clear that there wasn't real restart due to Clomid use (never really expected that).

I was thinking of waiting a month or two and by then I need to figure out my options. I have to say that I don't feel big difference to when I had my total T at 901. A little bit less energy but that's about it. Having said that I think that body reacts with a delay to sudden lowering of T (the same way as it takes time to feel good after one starts TRT). Of course, I hope that my LH would go up by a unit or so after a small rest that would bring my T to around 450 (assuming that it follows the past roughly linear pattern) but I won't be holding my breath for it.

Any thoughts or comments from forum members?

[kelkel]

I think you're on the correct path. Give it some more time, pull more BW and evaluate it along with how you feel. If levels are still poor it's time to consider TRT....

[seriouslifter]

isnt the standard to do 25mg ED? Could i get away with doing 25mg EOD?

[CarlosSemiDanger]

I'm not sure if there is any universal standard but I got my highest total T by having 10mg EOD. 25mg EOD would have been too high dosage for me.

I guess the only rule of thumb is that less is more once you have reached the target levels.

[CarlosSemiDanger]

I've been without Clomid for three and half months. Values went quite a bit down after stopping Clomid but my lastest blood results look promising.

Total T 472 (249-836)
LH 2.8 (lowest ever!)
E 21 (8-43)
SHBG 42

Based purely on numbers one could claim that restart worked but I'm not sure if I were to do such conclusions just yet. Earlier I was calorie negative and now I'm calorie neutral. Earlier I was heavy on proteins and very limited carbs but currently I'm eating more carbs and reduced proteins quite a bit (take Whey only after exercise and all other times I eat it through foods as much as possible). Could diet and life-style changes impact that much - taking me up from 200s to high 400s?

The positive thing is that I don't think my T levels will crash anymore (unless I do something stupid like starve myself to death) as they have bounced back without any external help.

One thing that I don't get it is that why my LH is the lowest ever but my testosterone is the highest through the natural means. I though that LH and T would pretty much be more or less directly correlated. Would any expert care to share their thoughts?

I'm not sure what the next steps should be. Should I just monitor the situation or give another round of Clomid stimulation to try to get T into high five hundred range. Thoughts?

[kelkel]

What's your Free T level Carlos?
Yes, lifestyle and nutrition can make a difference. Sooooo many things factor in. Simple stress can knock down T levels via elevated cortisol.
There's no linear graph to a certain LH number equaling a certain T level. To many variables in between, cholesterol pathways, testicular function....
If you feel ok then monitor the situation for a few more months, imho.
Also, be sure you optimize your Vit D level which helps to reduce shbg and free's up more T for use.

[CarlosSemiDanger]

I'm not able to get a real measurement through my GP but I did calculate a value based on ALBUMIN and SHBG. That got mine to 8.76ng/dl but I know that the calculation is not very accurate.

I felt pretty shitty 2-4 weeks ago but things have picked up so maybe my 'boys' started to work better during the last two months.

By the way, what's your view on getting D through sun. I'm living at sunny side of USA so I'm able to get plenty of sun to help with D if needed or do you feel that just eating fish and popping D vitamins is the way to go?

[kelkel]

Most in North America are low on D. I'll always recommend knowing your level through testing before supplementing but odds are you are low. Any form of D3 works, just take it with a large meal for best absorption.

[OingoBoingo]

By the way, what's your view on getting D through sun. I'm living at sunny side of USA so I'm able to get plenty of sun to help with D if needed or do you feel that just eating fish and popping D vitamins is the way to go?

There are a couple good arguments for getting sunlight. One is that the half-life of Vitamin D made by your body has a slightly longer half-life than taking the pills. Dr. Michael Hollick believes it strange that the body would evolve to use only such a narrow frequency band of light, and that other frequencies may also be useful for other things, but we just don't know yet.

People living north of Atlanta (or Los Angeles) make close to zero Vitamin D in the winter. The narrow band of UVB needed to make Vitamin D can't make it through the ozone at oblique angles. Also has a hard time get through clouds and smog and windows. And if someone puts on a sunscreen that blocks UVB, guess what...

Just living in a sunny area isn't enough; one must sunbathe really every day. That means if one has white skin, they should expose 40% of their skin for around 30 minutes each and every day; if one's skin is black, they must expose 40% of their skin 8 times longer or 4 hours - tough to do.

A good rule of thumb to remember is that you can only make Vitamin D when your shadow is shorter than your height.

Now that I'm visiting in Pattaya (just 13 or so degrees above the equator), around solar noon I get out and walk with my shirt off for a couple miles on the beach.

The levels of Vitamin D found in food are quite low compared to what we actually need. There are lots of good reasons to eat salmon every day, but it won't take someone who is Vitamin D deficient to 115nmol/L.

Get your Vitamin D checked. Get as much quality sun as you can. Eat as much salmon as you can. And you'll probably have to supplement with Vitamin D3 daily as well.

Do that for 6 months and check your Vitamin D level again. Increase your D3 if necessary.