High E2 issues on TRT, possible diet related???

[headkick]

Long story long:

been on TRT for a couple of years now. Tried pellets, creams, and injections. Switched to new doctor in July. Was put on a total of .75 cyp subq per week split between 2 shots and 2 -250 HCG injections per week, also subq. Had never been on HCG before this. Immediately got sore joints and extreme bloating from the HCG so after a few weeks Dr had me stop it. He also had me start taking .5 adex 1 time a week. less than a week later I feel the best I have felt in years. More energy and libido is that of a teenager. The joint pain was gone and bloating was going away.


Well that lasted all of 2 and a half weeks. So I have my 6 week labs done. I woke up that morning of my scheduled visit to the lab feeling weird and could tell things weren't right and each following day was progressively worse. Took almost 2 weeks before labs got back and could arrange consult with doctor. I told him how crappy I was feeling but he was skeptical due to the 2 week old labs he was looking at(950 total t, 23 free t, and 32 E2). Anyway, his answer to fix my issue was to reintroduce HCG again. I wasnt happy about it but I listened. A month went by and still felt like garbage. The joint pain and bloating from the HCG were back but weren't as bad as they were in July. Decided to take it upon myself and order a private md labs test to see where I was at. came back with total T of over 1050 and E2 of 87. That was 2 weeks ago. Contacted doctor with those results. Stopped HCG again and increased adex to .5 2 times a week per his orders.


I also added DIM last weekend per just reading this forum. Having never taken that before I really dont know long before I might expect any sort of results from it.


Also thinking the raise could be diet related. I only say this because I was laying in bed last night thinking of what else in my life has changed since mid august and 1 thing was that I started only drinking coffee I made at home. Before that it was a lot of iced coffee from the usual drive-thru coffee spots. Still researching it but i do drink a lot of coffee(60-90 ounces a day) and use a lot of Truvia sweetener in it(avg 1 packet per 10 ounces). Google is vague but looks like the large amounts of Truvia could have an effect on estrogen. Anyone have any feelings on this?



Still feel like shit but I have to assume fixing an E2 level that high will take more than a couple if weeks but really curious to get some feedback from others on this. Thanks in advance

[OingoBoingo]

Diet can indeed affect E2 levels. Most importantly, limit alcohol use; especially beer.

Foods that contain Di-indolylmethane increases the level of estradiol in the body.

Try to stay away from: soybean products such as tofu and soy milk, lima beans, berries, apples, papaya, dates, plums, pomegranates, beets, eggplant, tomatoes, yams, olives, potatoes, barley, rice, hops, oats, wheat, flaxseeds, chickpeas, garlic, parsley, clover, split peas, sprouts and licorice.

IMO, soy products are probably the worst.

Don't know enough about your sweetener, so can't help you with that.

[Trevtrev]

That .5 adex 2x/wk is probably going to crash your E2 fairly quick.

This whole thing is going to take time for you to figure out what works for your body. It took me the better part of a year to get the numbers I wanted to see and feel right.

I started at a higher dose and gradually reduced it to 40mg testC 2x/wk and only 150iu hCG 2x/wk and my numbers are right where then need to be and my nuts are happy. (Yes 300iu/wk on trt maintains testes just fine for me)

My advice would be to back off of everything and maintain doses for at least five or six weeks then retest and see where you are. Adjust if needed and wait to test again.

I found that it takes time for your body to adjust and level out.

You said .75. Is that .75ml of testC (200mg/ml) 2x per week? If so that is way excessive IMHO and why your E2 is high.

[2Sox]

Wait a minute. If your dose is 75mg twice a week, it's not unheard of. But if you dosing .75mL twice a week that means 300mg/week. This is NOT a TRT dose. So we've got to clear this up first. And if you're taking 300mg/week of T Cyp, and taking only 1mg of Adex a week, there is no way E2 will be controlled with that small an AI dose. Whatever the case your hCG is definitely NOT to blame for you E2 problem. Your dose is very average.

To my knowledge, hCG does not make for that much E2 conversion - at least not enough to bring your levels up as high as your labs indicate. IMO, your coming to an erroneous or poorly thought out conclusion thinking that the hCG is the culprit. In any event, I would argue that you would be foolish to stop hCG. The benefits are too great to overlook. It's easier to lower your T dose to address E2.

But first clear this up for us.

[headkick]

You said .75. Is that .75ml of testC (200mg/ml) 2x per week? If so that is way excessive IMHO and why your E2 is high.

perhaps my wording was confusing. thats the weekly dose but its split in 2 so .375cc per shot.

Wait a minute. If your dose is 75mg twice a week, it's not unheard of. But if you dosing .75mL twice a week that means 300mg/week. This is NOT a TRT dose. So we've got to clear this up first. And if you're taking 300mg/week of T Cyp, and taking only 1mg of Adex a week, there is no way E2 will be controlled with that small an AI dose. Whatever the case your hCG is definitely NOT to blame for you E2 problem. Your dose is very average.

see above. ends up being 150mg total/week, not 300mg

In any event, I would argue that you would be foolish to stop hCG . The benefits are too great to overlook. It's easier to lower your T dose to address E2.

But first clear this up for us.

as mentioned in the OP, I was getting side effects from the hcg. i am sure it is great stuff for a lot of people but for me, its not worth feeling bloated all the time and having sore feet/toes and knees. I've heard of people getting those sides but they were taking much higher doses than I was so perhaps I am just sensitive to it.

anyway thanks for the input itt

[yettibecsuse]

headkick I was on trt test e and now moved to the Undecanoate nebido they call it in the US I believe; my e2 has always been an issue. I tried Dim unsuccessful for me personally; I have been reading, writing it out, and blood testing with doses of adex. So far, for me, I have on shot every 8/10 weeks; but I get this great rise in e2 in the first 2/3:weeks. It's slow release, but not that slow it seems for me; I have worked out that if I take .15/.2 every 3 days for the three weeks it keeps me feeling great and doesn't crash my e2. im now testing to see if it is best to continue the dosage for the entire 8weeks; I still don't have it sorted perfect, but I will get there

[OingoBoingo]

as mentioned in the OP, I was getting side effects from the hcg. i am sure it is great stuff for a lot of people but for me, its not worth feeling bloated all the time and having sore feet/toes and knees. I've heard of people getting those sides but they were taking much higher doses than I was so perhaps I am just sensitive to it.

It looks to me like the problems were caused by poor E2 control.

In the first post you say that hCG and Adex had you feeling "the best [you] have felt in years. More energy and libido is that of a teenager. The joint pain was gone and bloating was going away."

Then it sounds like you overshot your sweet-spot, driving E2 too low.

It might be worth your time to read a few threads on the forum about controlling E2.

[headkick]

It looks to me like the problems were caused by poor E2 control.

In the first post you say that hCG and Adex had you feeling "the best [you] have felt in years. More energy and libido is that of a teenager. The joint pain was gone and bloating was going away."

Then it sounds like you overshot your sweet-spot, driving E2 too low.

It might be worth your time to read a few threads on the forum about controlling E2.

it was after stopping hcg and starting adex

[OingoBoingo]

it was after stopping hcg and starting adex

Sorry for misunderstanding, but actually it doesn't matter. hCG may have contributed to the feeling by enabling the production of Pregnenolone for a short time.

But it looks like E2 was driven too low by the AI, which is what caused your issues.

Before dismissing hCG, you can learn a lot here by reading the threads.

[headkick]

Sorry for misunderstanding, but actually it doesn't matter. hCG may have contributed to the feeling by enabling the production of Pregnenolone for a short time.

But it looks like E2 was driven too low by the AI, which is what caused your issues.

Before dismissing hCG, you can learn a lot here by reading the threads.

not to be rude but did you read my post at all? my e2 went from 32 in late august up to 87 2 weeks ago. how is that "driven too low"?

[OingoBoingo]

not to be rude but did you read my post at all? my e2 went from 32 in late august up to 87 2 weeks ago. how is that "driven too low"?

Sorry, am having a hard time understanding the original post.

What was the protocol with your previous doctor?

You went to a new doctor and started Test 75mg x2 weekly, and 250IU hCG x2 weekly.

Two weeks later you stopped hCG and started Adex 0.5mg weekly. Less than a week later, you felt great. Sounds like you hit your sweet-spot. Did you continue taking Adex, or did you stop at that time?

[2Sox]

perhaps my wording was confusing. thats the weekly dose but its split in 2 so .375cc per shot.



see above. ends up being 150mg total/week, not 300mg



as mentioned in the OP, I was getting side effects from the hcg . i am sure it is great stuff for a lot of people but for me, its not worth feeling bloated all the time and having sore feet/toes and knees. I've heard of people getting those sides but they were taking much higher doses than I was so perhaps I am just sensitive to it.

anyway thanks for the input itt

Thanks for clearing this up.

I'll use your expression: "Not to be rude" I would suggest you don't know what your talking about. hCG alone would not drive your E2 THAT high to cause your symptoms. (It could however, take you over the line IF your T dose was high enough. And in this case, your dose is on the high side for TRT.) Your conclusion that your difficulties were caused by the hCG alone is unscientific. Since you were put on the higher dose of T cyp at 150mg/week AND hCG simultaneously, you really don't know which was causing the E2 rise. And you really CAN'T know unless you lower your T dose first. And that's what I, and I'm certain many others, would suggest before you deprive yourself of the benefits of hCG.

I think your doctor made some good calls (and if you are here long enough, this can't be said for many). hCg was the first one. Conservatively increasing your AI dose was the second. If he's smart, he'll lower your T dose and keep you on the hCG.

Needless to say, these are my opinions - based on my experiences and from the experiences of others whom I have learned from.

[Beethoven]

L

Thanks for clearing this up.

I'll use your expression: "Not to be rude" I would suggest you don't know what your talking about. hCG alone would not drive your E2 THAT high to cause your symptoms. (It could however, take you over the line IF your T dose was high enough. And in this case, your dose is on the high side for TRT.) Your conclusion that your difficulties were caused by the hCG alone is unscientific. Since you were put on the higher dose of T cyp at 150mg/week AND hCG simultaneously, you really don't know which was causing the E2 rise. And you really CAN'T know unless you lower your T dose first. And that's what I, and I'm certain many others, would suggest before you deprive yourself of the benefits of hCG.

I think your doctor made some good calls (and if you are here long enough, this can't be said for many). hCg was the first one. Conservatively increasing your AI dose was the second. If he's smart, he'll lower your T dose and keep you on the hCG.

Needless to say, these are my opinions - based on my experiences and from the experiences of others whom I have learned from.

I agree with 2sox. 150 mg a week is definitely not unheard of but to start at that level is not wise. From my personal experience I tell you this, whatever your protocol, you have to give it time and do plenty of BW to get dialed in. I feel you should have started at 100 mg and go up from there. HCG was definitely a good call. Although it can and does spike your E2 I submit that it is not the primary culprit. a lot of things affect your E2 such as diet, weight, alcohol, etc. but you have to give it time and BW. Then you make only one adjustment at a time. It took me almost eight months to get dialed in so you shouldn't expect it right away. There will be ups and downs which during that time you need BW to see what is going on. Much later and after much BW and trial and error, you will be dialed in and can make small adjustments and know what's going on. Example: I just upped my HCG to 100 iu's a week from 500, I may take an extra .5 mg of Adex one week and not the next depending how I feel. This is also because I put on weight which affects my E2 also. You should also post your ranges with the test results.

[Low Testosterone]

More than likely, not guaranteed but more than likely, this is what happened.

1. HCG can cause significant increases in estradiol just as testosterone can. With the combined meds your estradiol went up and bloating occurred, which can also cause sore joints in some men.

2. You then discontinued HCG and added in anastrozole. Testosterone levels were still up, estradiol began to go down and you began to reach a good balance between testosterone and estradiol. This would be why you felt fantastic for a little while.

3. You then continued the testosterone and anastrozole, your estradiol continued to go down - remember, you no longer have the added HCG that was increasing your estradiol but continued taking the anastrozole as if the HCG was still part of the equation.

4. You then added HCG again, same result as before.

Summary: You're not allowing yourself to level out and are bouncing all over the place.

Possible Solution:

Consider taking the testosterone & HCG with adequate anastrozole in order to balance testosterone and estradiol levels. But give it time. You may or may not need to decrease testosterone by 20-30mg per week in order to achieve this but don't bounce all over changing things all the time.

[2Sox]

More than likely, not guaranteed but more than likely, this is what happened.

1. HCG can cause significant increases in estradiol just as testosterone can. With the combined meds your estradiol went up and bloating occurred, which can also cause sore joints in some men.

2. You then discontinued HCG and added in anastrozole. Testosterone levels were still up, estradiol began to go down and you began to reach a good balance between testosterone and estradiol. This would be why you felt fantastic for a little while.

3. You then continued the testosterone and anastrozole, your estradiol continued to go down - remember, you no longer have the added HCG that was increasing your estradiol but continued taking the anastrozole as if the HCG was still part of the equation.

4. You then added HCG again, same result as before.

Summary: You're not allowing yourself to level out and are bouncing all over the place.

Possible Solution:

Consider taking the testosterone & HCG with adequate anastrozole in order to balance testosterone and estradiol levels. But give it time. You may or may not need to decrease testosterone by 20-30mg per week in order to achieve this but don't bounce all over changing things all the time.

Sounds like a good call. Thanks, Low T.

[Beethoven]

^^^^^^ Low T hits the spot.

[2Sox]

Low T,

When you say that hCG can cause "significant increases in estradiol", can you give specific details? Perhaps illustrate with numbers and anecdotal examples from your cases? Thanks.

[headkick]

More than likely, not guaranteed but more than likely, this is what happened.

thanks for the response. my doctor was completely blown away by the rise in my e2 in that amount of time and thus made the change in my protocol.


Thinking it could have been diet related was just me thinking out loud and curious if anyone else had something similar happen. I am still looking into that and have started making changes in what I consume as well.

[Beethoven]

thanks for the response. my doctor was completely blown away by the rise in my e2 in that amount of time and thus made the change in my protocol.


Thinking it could have been diet related was just me thinking out loud and curious if anyone else had something similar happen. I am still looking into that and have started making changes in what I consume as well.

For me weight gain affects my E2. So diet yes, indirectly for me.

[Lifted1]

Low T,

When you say that hCG can cause "significant increases in estradiol", can you give specific details? Perhaps illustrate with numbers and anecdotal examples from your cases? Thanks.

I was thinking the same thing when I read LT's statement this morning. I thought the general consensus was hcg raises T/E levels, but not significantly or that equal to testosterone .

If you could elaborate a bit more LT that would be great.

[Low Testosterone]

As you know, HCG increases testosterone , which can lead to more aromatization, which in turn can lead to more estradiol. How much of an increase is simply going to be dose and genetic dependent. I've seen plenty of men who take 200-250mg of testosterone per week who have great E2 levels, maybe slightly elevated but nothing worth being concerned with or negatively affecting them. Add in 250iu of HCG 2x/wk and their E2 jumps 30-40 points. But I've seen just as many where this didn't happen.

And Lifted1, you are correct, HCG doesn't typically increase testosterone levels more than testosterone does, but I've seen many cases where it has a more pronounced affect on E2 than testosterone. In fact, in some men, if they are on TRT and are having issues with low E2 (this does happen and more frequently than you might think), HCG is often added or increased to help with this, and often very successfully.

[Lifted1]

thanks for the info on how Hcg affects E2 LT!

[Low Testosterone]

thanks for the info on how Hcg affects E2 LT!

Sorry things aren't more absolute but few things are when it comes to HRT.

[Lifted1]

Sorry things aren't more absolute but few things are when it comes to HRT.

All good brotha...any information is way more helpful than no information.