Hcg causing e2 issues

[Rjay]

Ive been taking hcg for roughly 2 months for the health benefits of pregenelone etc as well as testicular reasons. In the first couple weeks it seemed to cause me no issues but the longer
I take it the more it seems to cause me estrogenic sides like fatigue, and mood swings. In addition I now have trouble upping my T dose to get me into the optimal range because my e2 is already so high. Last results showed it at 4.63pg/ml (<2.5) !

Last week I started taking 0.25mg adex EOD but I still get the same effects from the hcg. I have even tried going to an ED injection protocol but I found it less effective then E3D in the 2 weeks I tried it. At this point what are my options for increasing my Cyp dose while getting my estrogen to a good level?

My main issues right now are fatigue and libido which were much better in previous months

[Mp859]

How much hcg are you taking?
Are you under the care of a Dr.?
What is your test dose?

[Rjay]

Sorry forgot to mention doses.

Hcg 700iu/week (200iu EOD)
Test 33mg EOD (115mg/week)

Yes I am working with a naturopathic doctor but she is more familiar with womens hrt, I believe I might be one of only a few male patients for her. Don't get me wrong she is an AWESOME doc and I wouldnt make adjustments without consulting her.

[Mp859]

Sorry forgot to mention doses. Hcg 700iu/week (200iu EOD) Test 33mg EOD (115mg/week) Yes I am working with a naturopathic doctor but she is more familiar with womens hrt, I believe I might be one of only a few male patients for her. Don't get me wrong she is an AWESOME doc and I wouldnt make adjustments without consulting her.

Some people have issues with hcg aromatiization. Maybe ask her about lowering your dose of hcg. I don't have much experience with trt issues but you have to go through the process of elimination.

I can't believe the amount of test would causing any estrogen related issues.

[Beethoven]

I have similar issues with HCG . I found the dose for me is 500 iu's each week to keep the boys happy. I used to be at 1000 iu's but it sky rockets my E2. My Anastrozole dosage is .5 mg a week the day after my test injection.

[2Sox]

The first thing you have to realize is that hCG is not mysterious - any more than exogenous testosterone is. hCG has your body make more testosterone (and there are countless other benefits which you can research). T shots give you more testosterone. Where there is testosterone, there is aromatization, and there is estradiol as a result. That's it. You imply it's the fault of hCG that your E2 levels is high. This is faulty reasoning.

Every man is different but it's your job to find the dose of each from which you can benefit the most and keep aromatization to a minimum. And you have a very great deal of wiggle room to adjust each. But quit blaming hCG!

First consider SQ injections which release the dose into the bloodstream more gradually. Also consider daily dosing of each in the same syringe - something that I do. And there's nothing wrong with lowering your dose of each - T and hCG. Post your labs so we - and you - have some idea of what's going on.

Also seriously consider that at the dose of arimidex you are taking, you're issue could very possibly be CRASHED E2 because that dose is extremely high for the protocol you are on! Adex is very strong stuff and can crash your numbers in no time.

So you've got a lot of thinking to do about this.

[Rjay]

Beethoven do you only do one shot per week??

2sox- your right it is not only hcg causing my aromatization problems, I just mean it is harder to control it with the extra variable. I have tried subQ AND IM and I get WAY better results from subQ that is no question. However I know I haven't crashed my E2 yet I have a pretty good understanding of my body when E2 is high and after 3 doses of arimidex I havent gone beyond any sweet spot. I tried ED injections for roughly 2 weeks but didn't feel any better then doing E3D and I felt like a pincushion to boot, how long did it take for you to stabilize when you changed over?

[2Sox]

If you use insulin syringes it will eliminate the pincushion feeling. With GHRPs and my T and hCG , I take three shots a day without any issues.

I'm learning and finding out new things every day. Just recently, I lowered my dose of T to 98mg/week (broken up daily) from 112mg/week, and I pleasantly discovered that my libido has been increasing. Go figure. Still take 12.5mg of Aromasin every six days. May extend it to 7 days. My Total and Free T numbers have always hovered close to or above the high end of the ranges for quite some time. I go for blood work on Thursday and we'll see where they are but I anticipate they will still be toward the high end.

From my own experience, it didn't take long for me to feel the effects of any change in protocol - within 10 days, maximum.

[Rjay]

at 50mg e3d subQ for me with 700iu hcg /week my bioA T came back smack in the middle of the range, I cant imagine lowering my dose would put me close to the optimal range unfortunately :/...damn e2. When I tried ED injections I would draw the hcg first then the T but the T would arc over the hcg making it hard to assess how much T was really in there any suggestions?

[zerodarkthirty]

I'm a 38 year old TRT user and I have had exactly the same issues with HCG . I aromatize very easily and the HCG caused all of the same side effects that you describe. I have steadily reduced my weekly dosage of HCG down to around 300 IU per week (I do 50IU every other day). This small step has DRAMATICALLY helped to reduce the negative side effects. Try cutting down...I even stopped for several days initially just to let my system recover. I use Aromasin in conjunction with my test injections and HCG. Arimidex continually caused me to crash my e2, and Aromasin is far more forgiving in my experience. I have nearly quit TRT (gasp) multiple times because of the negatives I developed from overuse of HCG. Some folks are just more sensitive to it. I think you'll find that cutting back on HCG may be the key to your success. It was for me.

[Beethoven]

I have gone back to one shot per week. I really haven't felt much of a difference from twice per week, did it for the sake of convinience. I disagree with 2sox's assessment of aromatization. If I were to drop the HCG in total there would be no need for an AI in my case. Strictly because of the additional HCG that my need for Arimidex is present.

[Rjay]

Thanks guys, Im definately going to try dropping it to 500iu or less from there, as long as Im getting a little bit to slightly backfill any pathway Im fine with taking a lower dose. I also want to get my doc to prescribe me aromasin because arimidex gives me crazy anxiety, it feels like my hearts going to explode even though energy and libido are slightly better so I know I haven't crashed yet.

[2Sox]

I have gone back to one shot per week. I really haven't felt much of a difference from twice per week, did it for the sake of convinience. I disagree with 2sox's assessment of aromatization. If I were to drop the HCG in total there would be no need for an AI in my case. Strictly because of the additional HCG that my need for Arimidex is present.

I don't think we disagree at all. Quite the contrary. We all know that where there is T there is E - the body's beautiful act of balance - whether it be from hCG or T injections. To clarify: My suggestion to Rjay was two fold; that he not blame hCG for his aromatization issues and that he adjust his doses of either hCG or T to get to the place he feels most comfortable. And this is nothing new since this is what we all do to get dialed in. A case in point: Zero's post is an illustration of the success of lowering hCG dosage.

[Beethoven]

I don't think we disagree at all. Quite the contrary. We all know that where there is T there is E - the body's beautiful act of balance - whether it be from hCG or T injections. To clarify: My suggestion to Rjay was two fold; that he not blame hCG for his aromatization issues and that he adjust his doses of either hCG or T to get to the place he feels most comfortable. And this is nothing new since this is what we all do to get dialed in. A case in point: Zero's post is an illustration of the success of lowering hCG dosage.

Yes I agree, I lowered mine as well. I am just more sensitive to HCG than test. I had done cycles many years ago with sustanon and never a need for an AI. In fact when I was on HCG monotherapy was the first time in my life I had experienced itchy nips when I have never experienced that on any cycle. That's all.

[zerodarkthirty]

I also like the idea of trying Aromasin instead of Arimidex . I also experienced the horrible anxiety side effects of Arimidex (and/or the combination of continually crashing my E2).

If I have ever missed the mark with an AI and crashed my E2, I can always take HCG and within hours perceive an immediate change (i.e. increase in E2). Test injections would take much longer to notice the same rise in E2.

[Lifted1]

at 50mg e3d subQ for me with 700iu hcg/week my bioA T came back smack in the middle of the range, I cant imagine lowering my dose would put me close to the optimal range unfortunately :/...damn e2. When I tried ED injections I would draw the hcg first then the T but the T would arc over the hcg making it hard to assess how much T was really in there any suggestions?

I noticed the Hcg "dome" when I started mixing my t/Hcg together. Now I pay close attention when I load my hcg (.2ml) and know that when I put my desired amount of T (.3ml) in the syringe, my total volume should be .5cc. Doing it this way insures you have the correct dose when using an insulin syringe.

[Lifted1]

In my experience, I've found that I can tolerate about 250iu per injection without any negative sides. When my doc increased me to 350iu 2x/wk I developed puffy itchy nips within a week or two. I dropped it back down to 500iu and it was gone within a week or so. Now I'm taking 200iu along with 60mg Test M/W/F and I have no negative issues or a need for Ai.

[Rjay]

I appreciate all your responses, its super helpful to see other peoples experiences.

zerodarkthirty- so aromasin doesn't give you the anxiety arimidex did? I definately won't take arimidex another day if the unprovoked anxiety continues (mind feels clear, chest is tight as hell and heartbeat is rapid)

Lifted- Are you up to 180mg/week total now? How has upping your dose changed your experience, I remember your levels were slightly lower previous times talking with you..?

[Beethoven]

Rjay, how much Arimidex are you taking?

[zerodarkthirty]

No, I have never had anxiety issues with aromasin . I believe it to be far superior (for me!) than Arimidex . It's certainly out of your system much faster. Mechanism of inhibition is different than Arimidex.

In my experience, the anxiety occurs with high T and high E, and less so with low E and High T. Everyone is different.

I know what you're going through and it is NOT fun. Electric panic, for absolutely no reason, brought on by nothing, ruining almost everything.

-- Zero

[Rjay]

Beethoven- 0.25mg EOD, only took 3 doses this time. Even in the past when I ran E3D-E4D the anxiety was brutal. Never had any stiff joints or other signs of taking e2 too low. At one point I took it for 10 days experienced the anxiety and had bloodwork revealing high e2 still about 3 days after.

Zero- Thats awesome to hear, there seems to be a lot of people who feel aromasin is a much better option I brought it up with my doc, she did mention she has it available before we started arimidex in case it didn't work. I still want to up my T dose so an effective AI is 100% in order for me. Last night going to bed I was breathing so deep it felt like I had a large coffee and a pack of smokes before bed..

[zerodarkthirty]

Cautionary tale: despite what you might think, INCREASING T is not always (in fact, often it is not) the recipe for success in terms of feeling better. In this world, less is frequently more. Just a thought.

It could very well be that your current T protocol is ok, but that you're over-aromatizing to E2. That's how I was. I didn't need more T, just more control over the conversion to E2.

[Beethoven]

rjay that's a pretty high dose. It almost works out 1 mg a week. I would start with .25 mg a week. .5 mg a week is my dosage. When I started my Dr had me take .5 mg every other day and I crashed my E2. Although I didn have anxiety per se but I felt a little strange, almost hyper. If you inject once per week, take it the day after you pin. If you do twice per week, take it after the second pin.

[Rjay]

what about the rebound effect, how long does that generally take to happen?

[Beethoven]

Haven't really had a rebound effect. I've been on .5 mg a week for about a year now. With Arimidex it's wise to start low and work your way up. Arimidex is very good once you find your sweet spot but it is very powerful so you need to start low and monitor your progress.

[Rjay]

Its been 3 days since my last dose and my libido was pretty high yesterday, and I ended up having some pretty frequent and strong night wood, it is possible I may have gone too low without realizing although I still feel slightly anxious in the chest like before but thankfully only about 1/2 as bad. Im still scared to take adex again I might try one more time in another day or two.

[Beethoven]

Its been 3 days since my last dose and my libido was pretty high yesterday, and I ended up having some pretty frequent and strong night wood, it is possible I may have gone too low without realizing although I still feel slightly anxious in the chest like before but thankfully only about 1/2 as bad. Im still scared to take adex again I might try one more time in another day or two.

Cut your dose down and start at .25 mg per week. You will need BW at four weeks to see where you are at. Do you have a history of anxiety? It might not be the Arimidex .

[Rjay]

Ya Ive always had some general anxiety but it never felt like this. Ive never had to take deep breaths, or had a super tight chest unless on large doses of stimulants, it usually manifested itself in the form of over thinking/ over worrying. Initially testosterone seemed to help though. Ive had this same spike in anxiety all 3 brief times Ive been on arimidex .

[Rjay]

O and I do plan on getting bloodwork in roughly two weeks

[Lifted1]

I appreciate all your responses, its super helpful to see other peoples experiences.

zerodarkthirty- so aromasin doesn't give you the anxiety arimidex did? I definately won't take arimidex another day if the unprovoked anxiety continues (mind feels clear, chest is tight as hell and heartbeat is rapid)

Lifted- Are you up to 180mg/week total now? How has upping your dose changed your experience, I remember your levels were slightly lower previous times talking with you..?

Yes after the last bloods pulled at 150mg/wk 500iu/wk my doc incresed me to 180mg/wk 600iu/wk, which imo should be perfect for me. The additional 30mg/100iu should help bring my E levels in range as they were low and should put me top of the range free T. Blood work in january should hopefully confirm this.

[Lifted1]

you might consider a M/W/F protocol to help control/lower e2 as well. I feel best doing my injections subq this way and after adding 50mg T, but changing from every 3.5 days to m/w/f my e2 went down 4 pg/dl

[Rjay]

Awesome man glad to see your dialed in! How has this affected how you feel day to day (energy, libido, mood etc). Ive thought about the mwf you recommend but when I take T and Hcg on the same day I always feel the e2 spike...always. Im at 115mg/week right now so obviously lots of room to move up if needed, me and my doc are looking to bump to 140 for now but I want to get e2 under control first. I think 140 will do well for me at most I may need 150mg total/week in the end but in my case less is more if it means not fighting e2 as hard.

[Beethoven]

Anxiety is a difficult thing to deal with. Often times you think you have the culprit figured out when there is no culprit. Talk to your Dr and maybe go the Exemestane instead. They work differently but if you get to the same place then that's what is important. If not get your anxiety under control otherwise you're constantly chasing ghosts.

[Lifted1]

Awesome man glad to see your dialed in! How has this affected how you feel day to day (energy, libido, mood etc). Ive thought about the mwf you recommend but when I take T and Hcg on the same day I always feel the e2 spike...always. Im at 115mg/week right now so obviously lots of room to move up if needed, me and my doc are looking to bump to 140 for now but I want to get e2 under control first. I think 140 will do well for me at most I may need 150mg total/week in the end but in my case less is more if it means not fighting e2 as hard.

Thanks! Ya I'm glad I'm almost locked in, although it took some time (5 months). I feel much better overall on MWF compared to 3.5 days. I would suggest dropping the Hcg down to 300iu/wk and work up from there as less Hcg will lower e2 also. Maybe talk to your doc or just try 40mg T plus 100iu Hcg (same current T dosage, less Hcg) in the same syringe subcutaneously MWF and see how that works. My outlook was I would rather have more testosterone and less hcg since I would benefit from the test more.

[Rjay]

So ive cut down to 400iu/week (if that, been slacking on the schedule) and my libido and erections have definately improved. Its crazy how much e2 can make a difference. I haven't taken adex in 4-5 days and I can feel slight fatigue setting back in, anxiety lower but still somewhat present. I really wish I didn't get the sides because adex has been so beneficial for me every other way. The contrast in my mood and sexual function between last week is quite astounding. I still plan on trying aromasin to gauge any changes in anxiety.

[Beethoven]

Good to hear. That's the difficult part of TRT for those of us who aromatise more. Once you get that under control it's off to the races.