After TRT - Where to go next for Size and strength gains

[kewe]

Once I get to a good place where I am settled in and cruising and have a consistent diet and workout routine - what would be a good entry level item to assist in making some good gains?

[The_Crawfish]

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

[kelkel]

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

That about sums it up. But you should be able to make some substantial gains with Test levels optimized by TRT alone. Nail down your nutrition and training and watch it happen.

[Chicagotarsier]

Also depends on how you treat TrT. A lot of people on here use TrT as a reason to run with 200 mg a week in their system...which puts you at 120-170% max norm natural testosterone levels . This is not TrT. You can justify t by saying..I feel better at this level. Well 300 a week makes you feel better than 200. 400 a week even better....where does it end? On cycle shooting 750 a week I felt REALLY good all the time...much better than 140 a week TrT dose.

SO my 2-cents...what are your goals? If you have no concrete goals then take your two years to recover on TrT and focus on the diet and nutrition. If you have goals go get them. Just do your homework and understand what it means to put your system under stress with high levels of test. Blood work, Blood Pressure, and understanding how testosterone works with estrogen are key to having a good life on ths substance.

[BallSak]

Also depends on how you treat TrT. A lot of people on here use TrT as a reason to run with 200 mg a week in their system...which puts you at 120-170% max norm natural testosterone levels. This is not TrT.

Not true.

[BallSak]

OP, as kel said, your body can do amazing things with optimized hormone levels. I've been on HRT for 2 years and I've made a lot of progress, even with mid-range free T.

[J DIESEL3]

[QUOTE=Chicagotarsier;6972688]Also depends on how you treat TrT. A lot of people on here use TrT as a reason to run with 200 mg a week in their system...which puts you at 120-170% max norm natural testosterone levels .

Chicagotarsier how did you come up with the 120- 170%? Everyone metabolizes testosterone at a different rate.

I have a friend that takes 200Mg a week and I take 110 mg a week and our free and total test are almost the same. I have to agree with BallSak on this one.

[Chicagotarsier]

Not here to debate but to give my 2-cents.

Everyone has a friend of a friend that does this or that. Everyone metabolises testosterone differently. I challenge you to do a correct measuring of testosterone at 200mg a week cyp or E and after 5 halflife go do your TT. If properly dosed and administered you are not in range of any range of testosterone I have seen. If you want to discuss 99th percentile stuff..sure go for it. I am talking the norm.

I am sure the doctors on here can speak more to where 140-160 will put you vs 200 a week. I am sure by their experiences they will talk about the norm and not the one off 99th percentile case.

As far as how I came up with the 120-170% the group of TrT guys I lift with here in Beijing self medicate and do not BS on numbers. Why should they? They have access to the substance with no issues and don't have to worry about some faction in the Communist States of Amerika coming to knock on their door to take them to jail because they need their Nanny to care for them. We all pulled out lab records and graphed TT HCT MGdose RBC and BP vs doses. at 200mg doses everyone was 140+or_5% of max range normal TT. I think the variance of depth of glute and waste in syringe would make up for that +or-5%...so you have exactly 28 TrT patients with the exact same results backed by lab work. BF ranged from 15 to 28% so that was not an identifiable item to cause variance. So you tell me how 28 truly random people have the exact..and I mean EXACT same results on the same dose of test? This is what you call a fact in the real world.

You and your friend's results are super duper rare then if both your TT and FT reflect each other. Out of the 28 people mentioned above FT ranged so much it was not worth graphing. TT followed dose.....FT did not. IGF-1 did not follow dose but delta IGF-1 did follow (exactly follow) 150 to 200 per week change.

I am not going to debate what you are saying because I believe people do METABOLIZE testosterone differently. I believe this difference in metabolization is seen in your metabolic profile via IGF-1 and Free Testosterone.




[QUOTE=J DIESEL3;6972840]

Also depends on how you treat TrT. A lot of people on here use TrT as a reason to run with 200 mg a week in their system...which puts you at 120-170% max norm natural testosterone levels .

Chicagotarsier how did you come up with the 120- 170%? Everyone metabolizes testosterone at a different rate.

I have a friend that takes 200Mg a week and I take 110 mg a week and our free and total test are almost the same. I have to agree with BallSak on this one.

Also FYI all Endo Medical Clinical books I have access to (4 on my shelf at this moment) list the approved dosage for TrT with Testosterone at 25-50 mg a week. That in NO WAY translates to 200mg a week of Cyp or E....which is my original point. I do not know why you harp on the exact number when the point is it is out of range high to shoot 200mg a week.

[Low Testosterone]

There is no normal or 1% when it comes to the topic of dosing. A normal range? Sure, as in the majority fall in the normal range but plenty fall outside of it on both ends, and I do mean plenty. I see men regularly that take 200m/wk and barely peak at say 900 or fall rapidly below 400 ng/dl by day 6-7. But I see just as many, probably more, that this does not apply to. And there are plenty I see that take less than 100mg/wk and are over 1000 ng/dl. Getting these guys to lower their dose can be hard, people tend to feel they're getting ripped off if they're not getting 100mg.

The endo books you have, 25-50mg per week doesn't say much. First, what type of testosterone is it referring to? Secondly, old package inserts of Depto Testosterone say inject once every 2-3wks, so do Organon inserts. How about the old Delatestryl brand? That insert says to take 50-400mg once every 2-4wks. Where do these guidelines come from? Normally they come from insane endocrinologist who have some how established themselves as unquestionable in all things hormones. However, I would like to think or at least hope to think most here have learned how ridiculous that is.

[APIs]

Also depends on how you treat TrT. A lot of people on here use TrT as a reason to run with 200 mg a week in their system...which puts you at 120-170% max norm natural testosterone levels. This is not TrT. You can justify t by saying..I feel better at this level.

Rubbish...

[APIs]

Secondly, old package inserts of Depto Testosterone say inject once every 2-3wks, so do Organon inserts. How about the old Delatestryl brand? That insert says to take 50-400mg once every 2-4wks. Where do these guidelines come from? Normally they come from insane endocrinologist who have some how established themselves as unquestionable in all things hormones. However, I would like to think or at least hope to think most here have learned how ridiculous that is.

FYI - these inserts were likely written a long time ago when the product(s) were first launched. It could cost the manufacturer(s) literally millions of dollars to update these product inserts, as any changes must first be submitted to the FDA and backed up by actual clinical research data which does not come cheap. Sooner or later they will be up-dated now that TRT is becoming main stream & the dosing guidelines obsolete...

[APIs]

That about sums it up. But you should be able to make some substantial gains with Test levels optimized by TRT alone. Nail down your nutrition and training and watch it happen.

x2. Large gains in both strength & size can be realized with just TRT, correct training & diet. It can take years working on these three points alone. What are OP's current stats?

[Lifted1]

as far as dosing goes, i'm on the higher side as i seem to be a hyper excreter. at 100mg/wk i came in with exactly the same pre trt total testosterone level @ 3.5 days post injection, but my free was 2 points higher. shit at 150mg/wk my tt was only sightly higher (less than 100ng/dl) than my pre trt levels 3 days post injection, but free t doubled.

op, like others have stated just dial in your diet/protocol and reap the benefits of your hard work. i have seen a transformation in my body and progress in just under the 6 months ive been on...however, most of the visible differences have come from diet. remember you're in it for the long haul so be patient.

[Low Testosterone]

FYI - these inserts were likely written a long time ago when the product(s) were first launched. It could cost the manufacturer(s) literally millions of dollars to update these product inserts, as any changes must first be submitted to the FDA and backed up by actual clinical research data which does not come cheap. Sooner or later they will be up-dated now that TRT is becoming main stream & the dosing guidelines obsolete...

The package inserts on many of the name brand testosterone have not changed in 60+yrs because doctors don't want them to. I can promise you it has nothing to do with cost, clinical data or any of that. Remember, the physicians and experts that advise the FDA, they are largely anti-testosterone in every way. If you have a endocrinologist who cannot be argued with, and in medicine endocrinologist cannot be argued with, whatever they say goes. Is it fair, or is it right? No, of course not. It's insane.