How to stop hrt

[mrdth]

Can anyone refer me to some good posts from members that have successfully come off hrt or some other resources. Not looking to debate the issue just want a good exit strategy if needed.

[kelkel]

Well, assuming your system is capable of re-starting you should consider using serms. Basically the same thing guys who cycle do when their cycle is over. PCT or Post Cycle Therapy .

Clomid: 100/50/50/50
Nolvadex : 40/20/20/20

Above doses are per day & per week. Meaning week one would be Clomid @ 100mgs and Nolvadex at 40 mgs and so on. Clomid should be taken at bedtime.
Both of these selective estrogen receptor modulators work synergistically to stimulate production of LH & FSH by basically tricking the (ER) estrogen receptor in your hypothalamus to think there's no estrogen, thus signalling your pituitary to produce LH & FSH. This then initiates testosterone production downstream.

The issue will be whether your system can maintain adequate levels of test production once off serms and the hyper-stimulation is over. Only blood work will show this. Also, keep in mind if there was an issue that caused the low T diagnosis and it was not corrected, odds are you'll only return to your old levels. So many things can cause low T that are simply not diagnosed properly. Thyroid, cortisol, prolactin, pathologies, etc.

Best of luck.

[Low Testosterone]

If you truly have low testosterone , meaning your body doesn't have the ability to produce enough testosterone on its own, there is no good exit strategy. You didn't have the ability, you started TRT and now you're stopping - what do you hope to accomplish that was different before you started TRT?

Some men assume that if they run a "PCT" after TRT that while they still may have low levels that they at least won't be as bad as they could be. For example, their levels would be 185 ng/dl but now are 270 ng/dl and somehow that's better. It's not, when you're below a certain point it's just bad.

Long story short...THERE IS NO TRT PCT!!!
And this doesn't change regardless of what some internet hero crackpot physician might say

[max738]

just curious why would you want to stop your trt

[mrdth]

Thank you Kelkel that's what I was looking for. As for the other responses I appreciate the feed back but I'm really not interested in debating the issue. But let me ask you this what would you say to someone who had no choice to stop hrt for example a medical reason like prostate issues or something else would your response be the same?

[kelkel]

Well, testosterone gets a bad rap when it comes to the prostrate. Instead of me spouting off read these:


The benefits and risks of testosterone replacement therapy: a review

Estrogen action and prostate cancer

An added thought:

FDA approves Cialis to treat benign prostatic hyperplasia

[mrdth]

Kelkel prostate issues may not have been a good example but there are other legitimate reasons to discontinue hrt.

In my case I just barely qualified for hrt. But after a year now the sides have out weighed the benefits. I have had multiple blood work done and my doctor has made changes to my protocol as needed. But I'm still having a hard time dialing it in and at $300 a wack for blood work it's becoming an endless money pit. I'm really hoping to hear from someone who has successfully discontinued hrt in case I decide to go that route.

[kelkel]

Well, maybe your doc's not quite on top of things as much as he should be. LT's comments above are on point and he is a physician. I'd seriously consider another doctor or take a look at LowTestosterone.com - $199 All-Included Testosterone Treatment

There are also locations where you can pull your own BW without a script and it's much cheaper, using the same labs as normal. Take a look at:

discounted labs .com
private md labs . com

Best of luck.

ps: I'd be very curious what your current protocol is?

[Low Testosterone]

Thank you Kelkel that's what I was looking for. As for the other responses I appreciate the feed back but I'm really not interested in debating the issue. But let me ask you this what would you say to someone who had no choice to stop hrt for example a medical reason like prostate issues or something else would your response be the same?

I understand you don't want to debate the issue and if TRT isn't for you then it's not for you. The PCT plan kelkel posted is a standard PCT plan many steroid users (performance use, not medical) would use, and such plans can help such individuals recover their normal natural production. But one important thing to remember is those people did not have a prior low level condition. Equally important is that even with those individuals recovery is not guaranteed. For someone like you the best case scenario is you end up where you were before you started TRT. That's generally the best you can hope for. However, because you've been using testosterone for a year it is highly unlikely. And that's not said in an attempt to debate the issue in order to encourage you to continue TRT, that's something you have to decide yourself. But it's still useful to have relevant and realistic expectations of what's possible and what's not.

One side note, you mentioned you hardly qualified for TRT in the first place. Curious as to what your pre-TRT numbers were?

[2Sox]

Thank you Kelkel that's what I was looking for. As for the other responses I appreciate the feed back but I'm really not interested in debating the issue. But let me ask you this what would you say to someone who had no choice to stop hrt for example a medical reason like prostate issues or something else would your response be the same?

In my opinion, if you don't want to debate the issue and continue to be secretive about your condition and do not provide enough information for the members here to be truly useful to you - you should not be posting here. How do you expect people to help you without all the facts present? I hope you understand that we all benefit from everyone's questions. It's a give and take here. You already got excellent answers from two of the best. It's not fair to put them and others in the position of guessing what's going on with you. It's selfish, ungrateful.

My feeling: Tell it straight or go away.

[mrdth]

In my opinion, if you don't want to debate the issue and continue to be secretive about your condition and do not provide enough information for the members here to be truly useful to you - you should not be posting here. How do you expect people to help you without all the facts present? I hope you understand that we all benefit from everyone's questions. It's a give and take here. You already got excellent answers from two of the best. It's not fair to put them and others in the position of guessing what's going on with you. It's selfish, ungrateful.

My feeling: Tell it straight or go away.

If you want to debate the issue there are plenty of posts on here for that if you would like I can refer you to them. My question is straight forward and anyone with the same question answers to it would be beneficial to them. If you are not interested in the topic then move on. Maybe you should check your e level you seem a little sensitive to me.

[rplante7]

All you can do is the PCT that Kel laid out. There are supplements that MAY help (Vit D, zinc, DIM, Resveratol, boron). My guess is that you have a good chance of returning to pre TRT test levels. One thing you have to realize is that most of the regulars on this forum are very pro TRT. Let us know how you make out!

[2Sox]

If you want to debate the issue there are plenty of posts on here for that if you would like I can refer you to them. My question is straight forward and anyone with the same question answers to it would be beneficial to them. If you are not interested in the topic then move on. Maybe you should check your e level you seem a little sensitive to me.

Mrdth,

Everyone is anonymous here. There is no reason for you not to give the whole story so that you and we can all benefit - and so you can get the help you need. Your case may not be atypical at all but we and YOU will never know unless you are forthcoming about your condition. In not providing all the background information you can, you're only hurting yourself and wasting the time of people who truly want to help a new member like you.

In my experience, when a person says they don't want to debate something, their purpose is to either hide something or they are doing something they don't want to change. If this is the case with you, why even be a member of a forum where people come to learn and share?

[Low Testosterone]

OP, maybe this will help, there is no such thing as successfully or unsuccessfully coming off TRT. There's not a severe medical condition you're trying to avoid when you end TRT. The medical condition already existed before you began TRT. A PCT plan or not, in the end you're going to end up where you were before you started TRT. That's not debating the issue or some possible opinion, that is simply what will happen. You won't die or become sick, and on the flip side you won't recover to the point of optimal yet natural testosterone levels .

[mrdth]

Mrdth,

Everyone is anonymous here. There is no reason for you not to give the whole story so that you and we can all benefit - and so you can get the help you need. Your case may not be atypical at all but we and YOU will never know unless you are forthcoming about your condition. In not providing all the background information you can, you're only hurting yourself and wasting the time of people who truly want to help a new member like you.

In my experience, when a person says they don't want to debate something, their purpose is to either hide something or they are doing something they don't want to change. If this is the case with you, why even be a member of a forum where people come to learn and share?

The only one wasting people's time 2sox including yourself is you. If you didn't like my post when you read it than you could have easily ignored it and wasted only a few seconds of your life which I Iwould apologise for. Just because I was asking for help with a SPECIFIC topic does not mean I'm obligated to get into a full blown conversation of question and answer with you which I think I made clear. By you getting all offended and paranoid that I'm wasting your time and hiding something is only going to make other people reluctant to ask questions in fear of being attacked by people like you. Don't be so narcissistic and assume there's no one else on here that might be interested in my original question.

LT are you saying there are absolutely no reasons someone may need to end hrt? Because my question is for someone who might. I completely understand hrt is not a temporary fix and for those that have success with it that's great. But I see nothing wrong with being educated ahead of time should it need to be permanently or temporarily suspended am I wrong?

[2Sox]

The only one wasting people's time 2sox including yourself is you. If you didn't like my post when you read it than you could have easily ignored it and wasted only a few seconds of your life which I Iwould apologise for. Just because I was asking for help with a SPECIFIC topic does not mean I'm obligated to get into a full blown conversation of question and answer with you which I think I made clear. By you getting all offended and paranoid that I'm wasting your time and hiding something is only going to make other people reluctant to ask questions in fear of being attacked by people like you. Don't be so narcissistic and assume there's no one else on here that might be interested in my original question.

I think you missed my point. Just forget about it.

[Simon1972]

The only one wasting people's time 2sox including yourself is you. If you didn't like my post when you read it than you could have easily ignored it and wasted only a few seconds of your life which I Iwould apologise for. Just because I was asking for help with a SPECIFIC topic does not mean I'm obligated to get into a full blown conversation of question and answer with you which I think I made clear. By you getting all offended and paranoid that I'm wasting your time and hiding something is only going to make other people reluctant to ask questions in fear of being attacked by people like you. Don't be so narcissistic and assume there's no one else on here that might be interested in my original question.

LT are you saying there are absolutely no reasons someone may need to end hrt? Because my question is for someone who might. I completely understand hrt is not a temporary fix and for those that have success with it that's great. But I see nothing wrong with being educated ahead of time should it need to be permanently or temporarily suspended am I wrong?

take arimidex , that should fix your issues.

[Low Testosterone]

The only one wasting people's time 2sox including yourself is you. If you didn't like my post when you read it than you could have easily ignored it and wasted only a few seconds of your life which I Iwould apologise for. Just because I was asking for help with a SPECIFIC topic does not mean I'm obligated to get into a full blown conversation of question and answer with you which I think I made clear. By you getting all offended and paranoid that I'm wasting your time and hiding something is only going to make other people reluctant to ask questions in fear of being attacked by people like you. Don't be so narcissistic and assume there's no one else on here that might be interested in my original question.

LT are you saying there are absolutely no reasons someone may need to end hrt? Because my question is for someone who might. I completely understand hrt is not a temporary fix and for those that have success with it that's great. But I see nothing wrong with being educated ahead of time should it need to be permanently or temporarily suspended am I wrong?

Sure, there are reasons someone might have to stop TRT but there's nothing you can do about the crash of levels that's going to occur.

[bullshark99]

LT,

Although this cat and mouse game is starting to become unproductive, can you seriously enlighten us on what those "possible/potential conditions would be for someone to have a medical need to discontinue TRT?

Think the obvious would be the the onset of prostate cancer (not caused by TRT of course) but what else?

[Far from massive]

Jesus if he wants to come off and not debate about the reason that's his business and if you guys wish to not answer because he is not willing to share that's your business.

I know what follow's is not great information but its what I have and its true so take it for what its worth.

I have 2 close friend who started using test on a regular basis and quickly stopped using large amounts and moved to a TRT sort of level. Both were on about 18 months. One after being on about 18 months said he was just tired of the hassle and one of the main motivators for him was that he had very bad adolescent acne and it was returning while taking test as a 60 yr old adult which he was not willing to deal with.

He simply stopped and did not run a PCT despite me trying to get him to...well long story short I have no idea what his Test levels were before or after he started taking test. However I can tell you that he said after a couple of months he started feeling better and he is not wearing womens clothes or anything these day LOL so I guess he is more or less OK.

The other one pretty much the same deal (but no acne) he just got tired of taking it and quit on his own, he also did not have blood work before or after.

I guess the point to my post is that many people can stop taking test and be happy, I wish I could quantify what their before and after Test scores were but I can't but suffice to say you can be on TRT and come off and continue life.

[Far from massive]

Quick PS.

Just to make sure my post is not misunderstood. I in no way think that if you have low T are on TRT for a year and do (or don't do) a PCT that you will wind up with normal test. As others have said best case scenario is that you will not be in far worse condition than you were before starting, most likely you will see some loss of whatever test you had before starting TRT.

My point is that this aside you may be able to live a pretty normal and happy life despite of this.

[2Sox]

I guess the point to my post is that many people can stop taking test and be happy, I wish I could quantify what their before and after Test scores were but I can't but suffice to say you can be on TRT and come off and continue life.

This is a good point. I can only guess that was the entire reason for the OP's post. There may be a lot of people still be guessing. Max738 even asked this way back in post #4. Anyway, from where I sit he got pretty good answers to make an informed decision - whatever his reason was.

I agree with Bullshark above. This was a cat and mouse game - and IMO, it wasted a lot of time. And I say this, OP, because the members of this forum could have learned from you. By the way, your question was not a new one. It has been asked many, many times here. But the knowledge of your situation - if you would have been forthcoming about it - could have been of benefit to us because we could have learned something new from it. And this might have helped others in the future. Feels pretty good when it happens.

Massive, I can't completely agree with you although I understand where you are coming from regarding this "being his business". In my view, once you post on a forum and ask others for help, that part of your life becomes everyone's business. And with that post comes responsibilities, not the least of which is to be honest and forthright.


OP,
Overreaction? Maybe. But I hope you don't miss the point this time.

[kelkel]

he is not wearing womens clothes or anything

That's the side effect that worries me the most.

[fxrjuiceman]

That's the side effect that worries me the most.

Hahahaaaa

[Simon1972]

Massive, I can't completely agree with you although I understand where you are coming from regarding this "being his business". In my view, once you post on a forum and ask others for help, that part of your life becomes everyone's business. And with that post comes responsibilities, not the least of which is to be honest and forthright.


OP,
Overreaction? Maybe. But I hope you don't miss the point this time.

If the OP wants privacy, go to a Dr and pay out the $$$$$$. Otherwise a little openness considering nobody knows who you are sends the signal of shared experiences.

This is not a confidential private service. Opinions are offered freely. This is a public forum.

[Low Testosterone]

If the OP wants privacy, go to a Dr and pay out the $$$$$$. Otherwise a little openness considering nobody knows who you are sends the signal of shared experiences.

This is not a confidential private service. Opinions are offered freely. This is a public forum.

I don't think it's privacy he cares about. He's saying he's made his mind up and it doesn't matter what anyone says, he's going to do what he wants to do. So if you've made your mind up, any history or information you could provide about yourself is irrelevant.

[Low Testosterone]

LT,

Although this cat and mouse game is starting to become unproductive, can you seriously enlighten us on what those "possible/potential conditions would be for someone to have a medical need to discontinue TRT?

Think the obvious would be the the onset of prostate cancer (not caused by TRT of course) but what else?

Uncontrollable polycythemia - yes, I know, donate blood, but it's not always that easy.

Disease - when trying to find a cause/problem even though it's unlikely that testosterone is causing the problem, at times it is best to stop taking anything and everything, even vitamins.

Prostate cancer - this one I'm torn on. While we know testosterone doesn't cause cancer the negative affect it may have on existing prostate cancer is inconclusive. Some act like the debate is settled one way or another but it's not. Neither side has absolute proof.

You feel like crap because of TRT - this is a pretty good reason to stop, and it does happen. It's not what I'd call common. One reason this occurs is because the individual isn't able to stay on top of blood work and isn't able to spend a lot of time tinkering with it. I know this seems ridiculous to many of you but you guys aren't normal. I don't mean that in a negative way.

[kelkel]

but you guys aren't normal.

Aww, thanks.

[Low Testosterone]

Aww, thanks.

You're quite welcome.

[bullshark99]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to that LT. Basically I would conclude, although there are legit reasons, it seems to be a rare day someone needs to discontinue treatment for medical reasons.

[FakeLove]

Well, assuming your system is capable of re-starting you should consider using serms. Basically the same thing guys who cycle do when their cycle is over. PCT or Post Cycle Therapy .

Clomid: 100/50/50/50
Nolvadex: 40/20/20/20

For me it seems that low dosing PCT is becoming a trend and doses that high are less and less common among AAS users. LH stimulation based on lab results I've seen from others seem to provide same end result with less sides by taking clomid even as little as 12,5mg ed. My own experiences are limited to Nolva only, but with it I experienced the same. With 20mg ed estrogen sides were bad and taking 10mg ed provided the same T levels with less E2. I belive I even saw a thread about this same observation here on this forum too.

[DanMan250]

For me it seems that low dosing PCT is becoming a trend and doses that high are less and less common among AAS users. LH stimulation based on lab results I've seen from others seem to provide same end result with less sides by taking clomid even as little as 12,5mg ed. My own experiences are limited to Nolva only, but with it I experienced the same. With 20mg ed estrogen sides were bad and taking 10mg ed provided the same T levels with less E2. I belive I even saw a thread about this same observation here on this forum too.

You are absolutely spot on! So many people are unaware just how powerful serms are. The doses suggested above would make most guys an emotional wreck. I've seen doses as low as 12.5mg of clomid eod bring guys from the bottom of the normal range right to the top of the normal range. One should always start off on the lowest dose, then get bloods done and increase dose if need be. Starting too high on a powerful drug like Clomid could potentially drive a man to suicide!

[Weavz]

For me it seems that low dosing PCT is becoming a trend and doses that high are less and less common among AAS users. LH stimulation based on lab results I've seen from others seem to provide same end result with less sides by taking clomid even as little as 12,5mg ed. My own experiences are limited to Nolva only, but with it I experienced the same. With 20mg ed estrogen sides were bad and taking 10mg ed provided the same T levels with less E2. I belive I even saw a thread about this same observation here on this forum too.

I'm actually starting the process of coming off TRT. I'm 36, and was borderline Low T (430 I believe). I've been "Dialed in" for a year now, but the costs are high, and I'm curious if I actually had Low-T symptoms, or if I was looking for an excuse.

My protocol has been .2ml T/.25 adex/.25 HCG /.25 adex
This has given me numbers in the 900 range. Doctor always told me that I was young enough still and that the HCG (which was originally prescribed because we wanted to have another child) was keeping my boys going. I talked to him about coming off, and without hesitation or an argument he said, finish your bottle, run the HCG and then you should be fine. No clomid, no nolva. Whether he has a lot of experience with this or not, I'm not sure. Most of his patients (I'm guessing, from conversations with him) are older guys whose production isn't anywhere near mine.

I'll probably be back to TRT, but if I can save some money till I'm forty, that's 3+ years of savings. Obviously the "crash" effects will play a part if I go back on right away or not. But like the Doctor said, I'm young enough.

Hope this helps.

[kelkel]

You are absolutely spot on! So many people are unaware just how powerful serms are. The doses suggested above would make most guys an emotional wreck. I've seen doses as low as 12.5mg of clomid eod bring guys from the bottom of the normal range right to the top of the normal range. One should always start off on the lowest dose, then get bloods done and increase dose if need be. Starting too high on a powerful drug like Clomid could potentially drive a man to suicide!

If guys are unaware then they should not be using testosterone , yet alone serms. Always educate before you medicate. When it comes to Clomid it's always advised to take it at bedtime to sleep through most of the side effects. When it comes to that protocol it is a basic protocol for someone coming off of a cycle, not TRT, so of course alterations can be made. There is no golden rule as we all respond differently.

When it comes to starting low with clomid and "seeing guys go from the bottom of the normal range to the top" I'm sure you're referring to guys using clomid as a form of TRT which is stimulating an already functioning system. In PCT your HPTA is shut down, quite a difference here. Saying it could drive a man to suicide is a bit of a stretch.

[DanMan250]

Yes I was referring to guys who have low LH and low testosterone who have achieved high normal range testosterone levels on 12.5mg clomid eod.
Yes someone who is HPTA suppressed would likely recover faster on a higher dose, but from personal experience, I would not exceed 25mg per day and that would only be for 1 or 2 weeks. I'd then drop the dose down to 12.5mg/day and then 12.5mg eod over several weeks. A longer PCT on a lower dose of clomid works a lot better in my experience, with much fewer side effects.
Dr Crisler has also talked about just how powerful clomid is and how ridiculous the doses used by bodybuilders are. 50-100mg/day would make me an emotional wreck!
Clomid has a VERY long half life of up to 7 days, so you don't sleep through most of the side effects by taking it at night lol.
You will still get tons of side effects if you take too much of it, regardless of what time of day you take it!

[kelkel]

Well, you should always do what works for you based on personal experience. Remember, the higher initial dose of clomid is only for one week as a front-load and then it's dropped. Yes, it does have a long half life but in terms of personal experience along with countless thousands of others it does seem be the go-to dosing numbers that have success with most guys, including dosing at night. Yes, Crisler is a brilliant guy. He also talks about how ridiculous cycling has gotten when it comes to BB'ing.

But, the bottom line is knowing what works for you and sticking with it.

[Low Testosterone]

Yes I was referring to guys who have low LH and low testosterone who have achieved high normal range testosterone levels on 12.5mg clomid eod.
Yes someone who is HPTA suppressed would likely recover faster on a higher dose, but from personal experience, I would not exceed 25mg per day and that would only be for 1 or 2 weeks. I'd then drop the dose down to 12.5mg/day and then 12.5mg eod over several weeks. A longer PCT on a lower dose of clomid works a lot better in my experience, with much fewer side effects.
Dr Crisler has also talked about just how powerful clomid is and how ridiculous the doses used by bodybuilders are. 50-100mg/day would make me an emotional wreck!
Clomid has a VERY long half life of up to 7 days, so you don't sleep through most of the side effects by taking it at night lol.
You will still get tons of side effects if you take too much of it, regardless of what time of day you take it!

There are a lot of things that have a long half-life but where the brunt of the effects one feels, particularly negative are felt in the first 12-24hrs. Probably far more common than not.

Most doctors should keep their mouths shut when making comparisons like this. The two aren't comparable for nearly innumerable reasons. But bodybuilders are an easy target.

[mrdth]

This is a good point. I can only guess that was the entire reason for the OP's post. There may be a lot of people still be guessing. Max738 even asked this way back in post #4. Anyway, from where I sit he got pretty good answers to make an informed decision - whatever his reason was.

I agree with Bullshark above. This was a cat and mouse game - and IMO, it wasted a lot of time. And I say this, OP, because the members of this forum could have learned from you. By the way, your question was not a new one. It has been asked many, many times here. But the knowledge of your situation - if you would have been forthcoming about it - could have been of benefit to us because we could have learned something new from it. And this might have helped others in the future. Feels pretty good when it happens.

Massive, I can't completely agree with you although I understand where you are coming from regarding this "being his business". In my view, once you post on a forum and ask others for help, that part of your life becomes everyone's business. And with that post comes responsibilities, not the least of which is to be honest and forthright.


OP,
Overreaction? Maybe. But I hope you don't miss the point this time.

Things have been busy lately and I just got a chance to read all the helpful responses which are much appreciated!

2sox this will be my final response to YOUR "cat and mouse" game. First there's no reason why anyone should be " guessing " why I was asking the question I clearly stated it was just in case an exit strategy is needed. I also asked if there were already posts asking the same question. So if the same question had been asked "many, many times" as you say why not help out by referring me to them? As for forum post responsibilities those are up to the forum moderator not you. Accusing me of being dishonest and not forthright is completely baseless making you the one who is irresponsible.

The last thing I will say is I understood your point the first time I just disagree with it as it seems others do as well.

[ks1234]

You feel like crap because of TRT - this is a pretty good reason to stop, and it does happen. It's not what I'd call common. One reason this occurs is because the individual isn't able to stay on top of blood work and isn't able to spend a lot of time tinkering with it. I know this seems ridiculous to many of you but you guys aren't normal. I don't mean that in a negative way.

To me, I feel like if I wasn't so OCD about my health and the way I feel, trt wouldn't have been for me and I would have given up on it after week 6 when I started to have some really negative side effects. It took a LOT of blood work and a whole lot of "tinkering" with it and even more self-education for me to somewhat get things right (and even now I'm not 100%).
I kind of envy the guys that pop a shot of test once a week and go to the doc once every 6 months to get BW done and their shit is wired tight.

But yeah, you're probably right, most of us here aren't "normal"...

But I love you abnormal bastards