not your typical trt thread.

[bartman314]

this thread is a bit venting and a bit information seeking. i suspect i'm not the only one here who was had this problem.

i've been on TRT for about two years now, and frankly it's been great for me... mood, energy, bmi, libido, all have improved (some didn't need it as much as others, but hey, you get the package. problem is my wife has never been supportive. ultimately she thinks aging gracefully is the way to go and anything artificial must be bad eventually. i've reviewed the risks with her and the ways to mitigate, but her underlying philosophy is really difficult for her to get around.

so... my libidos great and hers is starting to wane. thus there has been an ongoing disconnect in the bedroom. for a long time i tried to get her to play more than once a week, but with no real success beyond a couple of times over the past year. now, i've accepted the once a week thing, not happily but fighting about it all the time didn't help anyone and i felt i'd have to find a way to deal with it. so, we've been on the once a week thing for a few months and now 3 hours before our usual once a week playtime she says she's not in the mood. i ask if there's anything wrong (like maybe she's mad at me or might feel sick). she said no, she's just not in the mood.

oh... one other point before i get to the questions. i stopped mastrubating about half a year ago so that our sex (when we had it) would be that much better for both of us. this 'sacrifice' on my part has really paid off. when we do have sex, it's the best we've ever had.

one other piece of info, she is going to pick up our daughter from college tomorrow and the prospect of sex over the next few days is essentially nil. ARGHHHH.

i'm curious what the forum (especially those dealing with similar issues) thinks. with a seven day build up, i may not be thinking entirely rationally, and the anger i feel is real. am i over reacting (or am i under reacting?!?)? should i start mastrubating again? any hot female members wanna come help me out (only partially kidding!)?

are there any strategies i can use to get to a better (more frequent) sex life (my current strategy is to make her life as pleasant as possible and show her lots of love whenever i can).

thanks for letting me vent! bed time with blue balls for me...........

[kelkel]

I'll only touch on a couple parts...

Ageing gracefully is bullshit. Especially when you don't have to.
TRT is not artificial. It's the exact same thing your body used to make naturally.
Sounds like she needs a female hormone panel. Women can need additional T as well. It's not just a "man thing."

[bartman314]

right. i agree with all that. i'm trying to get her to see an endo. it's all complicated as well be pre-menopause.

[Simon1972]

Man. That sucks.all you can do is keep the conversation open. My Mrs is considering her when her time comes. But it was a challenge to convince her. Keep at her, boast at how well you feel. Don't make it about sex, women take sex talk as an attack and instantly dismiss anything thereafter.
There isn't a right answer. But maybe, just focus on the health aspects, show her scientific papers, she can't deny science. Anything else is hearsay.

[bartman314]

good advice simon... tough to follow sometimes, but wise nonetheless.

[2Sox]

Bartman,
First I want to say that I feel your post is to be respected. I do very much. It's sincere and tries to be honest. And represents what many people are going through. You're not alone.

I'll wager that there are countless men who have - or who are - going through exactly what you and your wife are going through right now. I wouldn't consider this thread to be "not typical" at all. I went through something similar with my wife a few years ago - and she is a PA. She started HRT about a year after I did and she's very happy she did.

I agree that sex should not be the main topic of conversation. (And I honestly feel that if the welfare of your wife is your main concern, sex is really a very small part of it.) We all know very well that the benefits of a hormonally balanced body go far beyond sex. THIS, in my view, ought to be the main subjects discussed. From my experience, when a woman feels that a man loves her, the main reason is because she feels that he wants to have good will for her - he wants her to be stronger, more beautiful in the truest sense, and that she matters to him. When your wife truly feels this from you, I think you'll see that she'll start listening to you better.

[sparverius]

Many things other than hormones can affect sex drive. If she's stressed at work she's not going to be in the mood. If there's stress in your relationship she'll be in the mood less. If she's exercising a lot she may be tired and not in the mood. (these things affect men too).

But menopause and perimenopause can screw up libido. My wife hit menopause early. It hasn't reduced her libido much but she doesn't get wet like she used to and that's uncomfortable. Lube helps a lot. She recently went on estrogen patches to reduce hot flashes and got the side effect of longer lasting orgasms. She's not complaining!

I spent most of my adult life wanting sex daily but few women have libido that high. Only one college girlfriend was even close.

[bartman314]

again, thanks for the inputs. all good food for thought.

[KBall32]

Bartman,

I can totally relate as I went through the same with my wife, let's just say once a week would have been quite welcomed. I think you are handling things well. I told my wife that sex was a big part of any relationship and it allowed me to be closer to her and enforced my feelings of unity. You know what I'm trying to say, don't let it be about sex but about developing feelings and love....... Was it partially BS, yes and no.

[Equipeeler]

Bartman,
First I want to say that I feel your post is to be respected. I do very much. It's sincere and tries to be honest. And represents what many people are going through. You're not alone.

I'll wager that there are countless men who have - or who are - going through exactly what you and your wife are going through right now. I wouldn't consider this thread to be "not typical" at all. I went through something similar with my wife a few years ago - and she is a PA. She started HRT about a year after I did and she's very happy she did.

I agree that sex should not be the main topic of conversation. (And I honestly feel that if the welfare of your wife is your main concern, sex is really a very small part of it.) We all know very well that the benefits of a hormonally balanced body go far beyond sex. THIS, in my view, ought to be the main subjects discussed. From my experience, when a woman feels that a man loves her, the main reason is because she feels that he wants to have good will for her - he wants her to be stronger, more beautiful in the truest sense, and that she matters to him. When your wife truly feels this from you, I think you'll see that she'll start listening to you better.

2Sox, you hit the nail on the head! The most important thing to remember is that sex for an adult male is 90% physical/10% mental, whereas for a female, sex is primarily mental thing. Scheduling sex may work for a few times but believe me that will never last and is the wrong approach. She will view sex as a chore and believe me you don't want her equating sex with taking out the garbage, vacuuming, or doing the laundry. Whether a woman is 25 or 65, they want to be listened to without having someone fix their problems. They just want to talk. It is our job to listen to them, be confident, and understand where they are coming from. If you get caught in the trap of complaining, it will be a downward spiral. Take her out for dinner(a place she would choose) and do something out of the ordinary after. Go dancing or anything that makes her happy, smile, and laugh. A happy wife makes a happy life. We all get caught in routine traps, don't let it happen to you.

[Billegitimate]

No more nice guy. Seriously, study how attraction is built and maintained. Sexual attraction is created by her perception of your sexual value. Most guys, having been emasculated by society don't know how to be a strong leading male presence. Assholes do a decent job, but you can be firm and lead while still being compassionate.

Pm me for some books if you're really interested, but start with this experiment: leave no decisions to her and ask no questions.

So, if she asks where you want to go for dinner, say "I want to go to XYZ restaurant. We'll go at 7." If you say "whatever you want" or "what do you want?" You're not leading.

Don't ask. Tell. "How was your day?" Is well intentioned. Nope, change that "Tell me about your day." It's still because you're interested in her, but it all adds up to a different outcome.

Try to count how many times you ask a question, and then change it to a statement. A directive if you will. If you just can't help yourself at first, try simply changing "When do you want to go?" To "Tell me when you want to go."

If you think I'm crazy, ignore me. But as someone who gets twice the sex I used to in my nearly 20 year marriage, these are hard earned lessons. PM me and I'll suggest some reading.

[RipperAl]

I recently got on TRT and its been going well since August but when I started I kept telling the wife how much better I felt after all these years of my primary GP saying "You're fine, just getting a little older" and I decided being mid 40's I could feel much better. After I started TRT I think the wife understood why I did it and I told her maybe, just maybe it might help with her not feeling like sex as much anymore except when she has a few drinks.

It took about 6 weeks of leaving the iPad open on HRT books in iBooks and eventually she started her OWN research, she warned me she had heard it could cause side effects but I told her I already read all that and she needed to keep researching, weeks later she mentioned in passing she would like to make an appointment with my clinic and just about 2 weeks ago she went and seen the doctor after waiting about 4 weeks for her blood work. She was prescribed a low dose of test and progesterone cream as well as progesterone pills which I think she mentioned she only takes during her period, it's way too early to tell but I am hoping within the coming months she will feel better, this past weekend was the first time in years she woke up on a Saturday and wanted to ride :-)

Good luck Bartman and possibly one day you can convince your wife of all the good things that might come from this, I suggest some reading material on HRT that is more geared towards women than men that you could say "You should really read this sometime, its amazing how these women's lives were changed with HRT"

[GenXAAS]

No more nice guy. Seriously, study how attraction is built and maintained. Sexual attraction is created by her perception of your sexual value. Most guys, having been emasculated by society don't know how to be a strong leading male presence. Assholes do a decent job, but you can be firm and lead while still being compassionate.

Pm me for some books if you're really interested, but start with this experiment: leave no decisions to her and ask no questions.

So, if she asks where you want to go for dinner, say "I want to go to XYZ restaurant. We'll go at 7." If you say "whatever you want" or "what do you want?" You're not leading.

Don't ask. Tell. "How was your day?" Is well intentioned. Nope, change that "Tell me about your day." It's still because you're interested in her, but it all adds up to a different outcome.

Try to count how many times you ask a question, and then change it to a statement. A directive if you will. If you just can't help yourself at first, try simply changing "When do you want to go?" To "Tell me when you want to go."

If you think I'm crazy, ignore me. But as someone who gets twice the sex I used to in my nearly 20 year marriage, these are hard earned lessons. PM me and I'll suggest some reading.

Seconded.

Bartman314's case is one of the reasons I will never be married again. Nope. Nope. Nope. Monogamous, yes. I will be there for my partner in any way I can, but if she is not there for me, I'm moving on. I lived 16+ years with a low sex desire spouse. Never again. I've had more fulfilling, incredible experiences with my current girlfriend in less than a year than I had my entire 16 year marriage. And I would do just about anything I could for her.

[2Sox]

No more nice guy. Seriously, study how attraction is built and maintained. Sexual attraction is created by her perception of your sexual value. Most guys, having been emasculated by society don't know how to be a strong leading male presence. Assholes do a decent job, but you can be firm and lead while still being compassionate.

Pm me for some books if you're really interested, but start with this experiment: leave no decisions to her and ask no questions.

So, if she asks where you want to go for dinner, say "I want to go to XYZ restaurant. We'll go at 7." If you say "whatever you want" or "what do you want?" You're not leading.

Don't ask. Tell. "How was your day?" Is well intentioned. Nope, change that "Tell me about your day." It's still because you're interested in her, but it all adds up to a different outcome.

Try to count how many times you ask a question, and then change it to a statement. A directive if you will. If you just can't help yourself at first, try simply changing "When do you want to go?" To "Tell me when you want to go."

If you think I'm crazy, ignore me. But as someone who gets twice the sex I used to in my nearly 20 year marriage, these are hard earned lessons. PM me and I'll suggest some reading.

I don't think that you're crazy at all - just terribly misguided. I'm sure that I don't have to tell you there is nothing personal in what I say. And remember that I can only go on what you write, so take it as such. What you speak about here are "strategies", and strategies have to be learned, tested and put into practice. For certain things, strategies are absolutely essential. But IMO, strategies in the relations between men and women eventually have poor outcomes - sometimes in the short term but particularly in the long term. And the strategies you talk about here are all artificial and their purpose is only to take care of oneself - without concern for another..

What I was talking about in my previous post is a purpose. It's a purpose; in fact it's a dogmatic Aesthetic Realism principle - I studied and tested for over thirty years and used as the guiding principle of my teaching for that long. And it has become the purpose of my marriage for longer than that. I've quoted it on this forum before but it feel it bears repeating here; "Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful."

I've seen with my blood that good will is literally part of our DNA. It is not a strategy - but we MUST be made aware that it is part of how we are made. And those who are reading this now ARE aware. It's that simple. Anyone can test it.

And by the way, good will is not a soft, weak thing. It can take many forms. I learned that it is always a oneness of encouragement and criticism. In other words, good will is a always a combination of both. And criticism is always for the purpose of leaving a person better off - which goes along with the definition.

The payback for having good will is always self-respect in knowing that you had a good effect on another human being - even though it may not seem so right away. The payback for having an agenda to have one's way, and to manipulate, is always a sense of shame. You may get what you think you want, but if you're honest with yourself, you'll know that you can't respect yourself - because you are using another human being to get your way. These are things I've seen over and over again over a very long time. I challenge you to test it for yourself.

[xcraider37]

Not exactly as I would have said it, but very glad someone responded to that very misguided reply. Well done 2sox.

[Billegitimate]

I don't think that you're crazy at all - just terribly misguided. I'm sure that I don't have to tell you there is nothing personal in what I say. And remember that I can only go on what you write, so take it as such. What you speak about here are "strategies", and strategies have to be learned, tested and put into practice. For certain things, strategies are absolutely essential. But IMO, strategies in the relations between men and women eventually have poor outcomes - sometimes in the short term but particularly in the long term. And the strategies you talk about here are all artificial and their purpose is only to take care of oneself - without concern for another..

What I was talking about in my previous post is a purpose. It's a purpose; in fact it's a dogmatic Aesthetic Realism principle - I studied and tested for over thirty years and used as the guiding principle of my teaching for that long. And it has become the purpose of my marriage for longer than that. I've quoted it on this forum before but it feel it bears repeating here; "Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful."

I've seen with my blood that good will is literally part of our DNA. It is not a strategy - but we MUST be made aware that it is part of how we are made. And those who are reading this now ARE aware. It's that simple. Anyone can test it.

And by the way, good will is not a soft, weak thing. It can take many forms. I learned that it is always a oneness of encouragement and criticism. In other words, good will is a always a combination of both. And criticism is always for the purpose of leaving a person better off - which goes along with the definition.

The payback for having good will is always self-respect in knowing that you had a good effect on another human being - even though it may not seem so right away. The payback for having an agenda to have one's way, and to manipulate, is always a sense of shame. You may get what you think you want, but if you're honest with yourself, you'll know that you can't respect yourself - because you are using another human being to get your way. These are things I've seen over and over again over a very long time. I challenge you to test it for yourself.

I believe you totally missed my point, and are perhaps judging just by titles like no more mr nice guy. I can assure you my wife is MUCH happier now than when I was not clearly leading.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my brief post (and a brief post is way too narrow a stage to convey all there is in this area) or your preconceived notions filled in the gap. Regardless, I'm quite confident that we disagree on less than we agree on.

I love my wife fiercely. I would kill or die for her without hesitation. And because of that I easily did things that I though were nice when in reality I think now that they simply made life harder on her.

Not all women will fit my stereotype, but I believe most are happier when the man makes the decisions, but then only if they also trust him. They want to be protected, but how would they trust a man to protect them if the man is a pushover and let's the woman call the shots or walk all over him?

I'm not sure what exactly you disagreed with, but my main thrust is to study attraction, how it is generated, and then give your wife the gift of being strongly attracted to you. She and you will both be happier if she feels strong attraction for you, and if you are being the typical American male chances are she doesn't perceive you as strong enough to be attracted to.

Lot to type on an iPad. Would be easier over a cup of coffee.

[2Sox]

Lot to type on an iPad. Would be easier over a cup of coffee.

Probably. But judging from how you responded, I think you didn't really carefully read my post and put it to your most critical mind. Absorb it. Think about it and how it applies to the experiences of your life. It's really not that complex and I think you ought to go back and read it again - think about it, and see how it's true. I know it is because I've been very scientific about testing what I write about in it.

When people in a relationship want to have good will for each other, the roles of leading and following are always changing. They are NEVER static. And you can only see this if you put this to the test - as I have. To say that males have to be the leaders already dooms a relationship. It's so artificial. And makes men and women too different - which is not the case at all. But it's so natural to want to have good will for another human being and it doesn't have to be kept a secret! My wife and I are always - often several times daily - having conversations about what would be good will in this situation or that situation. And I just doesn't involve US - which would be so narrow. It is a world view. You may want to look into the works of the late Eli Siegel on Aesthetic Realism. Very straightforward, and eminently logical.

[kelkel]

Lot to type on an iPad. Would be easier over a cup of coffee.

I'd be very interested. I'll buy the coffee.

[Billegitimate]

Probably. But judging from how you responded, I think you didn't really carefully read my post and put it to your most critical mind. Absorb it. Think about it and how it applies to the experiences of your life. It's really not that complex and I think you ought to go back and read it again - think about it, and see how it's true. I know it is because I've been very scientific about testing what I write about in it.

When people in a relationship want to have good will for each other, the roles of leading and following are always changing. They are NEVER static. And you can only see this if you put this to the test - as I have. To say that males have to be the leaders already dooms a relationship. It's so artificial. And makes men and women too different - which is not the case at all. But it's so natural to want to have good will for another human being and it doesn't have to be kept a secret! My wife and I are always - often several times daily - having conversations about what would be good will in this situation or that situation. And I just doesn't involve US - which would be so narrow. It is a world view. You may want to look into the works of the late Eli Siegel on Aesthetic Realism. Very straightforward, and eminently logical.

I have a suggestion: I enjoy reading, and will happily read any book you suggest by Eli Siegel, or any other you'd prefer to recommend. I'll ask you to read No More Mr. Nice Guy, but I won't make this a tit for tat exchange. I'll just ask you read that book, whether you do or not, and if you would be so kind as to suggest a book you think is representative of your major points, I will read it. I'm open to new ideas.

I'm also open to the idea that you and I both have truths to speak that might be true yet incomplete.

[Simon1972]

allow me to interject-

i find what bill wrote to be an accurate representation of how i have turned my life around.

i used to be the downtroddin male doing all the sucking up and a weaak version of the male i would eventually become. I havent ready any of these books- but thru self evaluation came to the conclusion bill writes about.

it really works. at least from my life lessons. but changing in the same relationship can cause issues with the typical "what happened to you- youve changed" attitude women throw at you if you dont play the game properly.

And after all it is a game, sad to play it- but anything you do that isnt inherent in your personality at that point is a game- in time it becomes a habit- and therefter it becomes you.

play the gme as you wish it to end.

[2Sox]

And after all it is a game, sad to play it- but anything you do that isnt inherent in your personality at that point is a game- in time it becomes a habit- and therefter it becomes you.

play the gme as you wish it to end.

It doesn't have to be. (I know because I've been there and done that in my younger, stupider years.) And that's the point I was making in my posts. Why play games when you can bring out the best that is already there inside you - part of you - and bring out the same in another?

Something I've written of here before is another principle set forth by Aesthetic Realism. And I use the term "principle" very carefully because it has been tested and found true by countless people and social scientists for well over half a century. And if you look back into anthropological history, it is born out time and time again - and has been documented. (See Arnold Perey, PhD.). It is this; the nature of humanity is dual. That is, we have two desires driving us all the time - which are part of our make up just as our DNA is. We have the desire for respect; to give something (or someone) everything it deserves - nothing less, and nothing more. This goes along with the definition or good will I gave earlier. We also have the competing desire for contempt; the desire to lesson something else as a means of self importance or self elevation. Even though the deepest desire in us is for respect, contempt is right there alongside, trying to take control. Contempt can take the form of a terrible act or it could be as subtle as an unkind thought. Now you go ahead and take a good look how this works in you in an every-day way. (When was the last time you mocked someone in your mind, or even out loud?) The wonderful thing about all this is that once we are aware of these two opposing forces in us, we can study them and consciously make the choice we respect ourselves for - to have respect. We have a choice to be better!

So you need not strategize or try to be someone you think would meet your needs - someone who is really not who you are. Because your need is to have good will - to have a good effect on others so you can respect yourself.

Taking examples you and others gave here; if you change what you say or do, so that you can have a desired response, or effect, it is merely cosmetic and artificial. It's not really who a person is inside and very often will not have a person feel proud or true to himself. But changing one's purpose to respect - will make for an outcome that will benefit both parties and will make for large feelings of pride and self respect - because you were true to the best thing in yourself and tried to have another person better off. One more thing. I've seen that when a man has good will for a woman, he is absolutely irresistible to her. Now there is something to really test for yourself!

[bartman314]

i think it's really cool that this thread has gotten interest on the dynamics of relationships. i think bill has said it right, that reality is more complex than a single simple theory. that being said, i have consciously experimented with different approaches to make my wife's life easier and our relationship better. this is a never ending project in my view as both of us also change over time. call it a very complex system!

my conclusion this far is that there is A LOT of merit to 2sox;s good will insight. the simple fact of the matter for me is that if both parties are making moves to improve good will there is a synergy that is develops that is better than just the individual parts (or moves). it's like a 1+1=3 effect. unfortunately, at least for me, there still remains residual disconnects at a deep personal level that are not spanned via any approach i've tried thus far.

in my wife's and my case, the fundamental disconnect is around risk and it's management. simply i am much more comfortable (and i actually seek out) risk in various activities in my life - for example, i race motorcycles as a hobby and it's my second favorite activity (read my first note for my faovrite...). my wife simply can't understand why i do something that is inherently so risky. the disconnect here is so deep it occasionally threatens the marriage (i have crashed a few times - none of them life threatening, but nonetheless severe). the trt is another manifestation of the disconnect. she uses the analogy of post menopausal estrogen treatment for women that was used years ago to improve quality of life, but (as i understand it) ultimately increased the chances of certain types of cancer. she (unfairly in my view) extrapolates that all hormone therapy to address aging/qol will lead to adverse health consequences in the long term.

anyways, the good will part helps, and being a confident man helps (although there are times she wants to wear the pants as it were), but i haven't found anything that will allow us to span the deeper personal disconnects. any other ideas?

[Simon1972]

Taking examples you and others gave here; if you change what you say or do, so that you can have a desired response, or effect, it is merely cosmetic and artificial. It's not really who a person is inside and very often will not have a person feel proud or true to himself. But changing one's purpose to respect - will make for an outcome that will benefit both parties and will make for large feelings of pride and self respect - because you were true to the best thing in yourself and tried to have another person better off. One more thing. I've seen that when a man has good will for a woman, he is absolutely irresistible to her. Now there is something to really test for yourself!

not really- depends on the woman, what you were saying is to not change who you are , but to remain true to who you are and the woamn will appreciate it.
in my life- im a weak wiledl- unmotivated individual that will slime his way out of doing whats right if its the easiest option- i progressivly changed my tact against my defaul setting - in order to better myself and to gain respect from people around me- because the way i was living my life wasnt working for me- i was wrong- my son was born- i became ashamed and i set out to do what was right- not what felt right.

im proud to say - its nurture not nature that has turned my life around and i like where i am- but i had to do it against my true self- let my brain rule my heart.

now my true self has caught up with my actions- i faked it until i made it. now its no longer fake- this is me. And i like me - my wife likes me- my son and family like me- it was very different a few years ago, and sometimes you do need to change tact, being mindful definely helped me. you can always search for someone that will accept you for who you are- but if you a prick, you better learn to lower your standards for a bushpig of a woman with low self esteem.

my changes were worth it- but they defintely didnt start off being who i once was- and for that im greatful- if i met my old self today i would punch him in the face.

[2Sox]

not really- depends on the woman,
I say this respectfully so please take it as such; I don't think you really believe this, or have consciously tried to have good will - CONSCIOUSLY - particularly in light of what you write below. If you had, the results would have been clear. You have to be aware of your "two selves". I know because I've lived it and experienced it. It is as scientific and as simple as basic math. As I said, it is not a soft, weak thing. It's a tough, kind, critical procedure. If you don't really test it for yourself, you'll never see the truth of this or know the benefit .

what you were saying is to not change who you are , but to remain true to who you are and the woamn will appreciate it.

That was not AT ALL what I was saying. Please, please read carefully what I wrote. I put a great deal of effort into making this very clear.

in my life- im a weak wiledl- unmotivated individual that will slime his way out of doing whats right if its the easiest option- i progressivly changed my tact against my defaul setting - in order to better myself and to gain respect from people around me- because the way i was living my life wasnt working for me- i was wrong- my son was born- i became ashamed and i set out to do what was right- not what felt right.

im proud to say - its nurture not nature that has turned my life around and i like where i am- but i had to do it against my true self- let my brain rule my heart.

now my true self has caught up with my actions- i faked it until i made it. now its no longer fake- this is me. And i like me - my wife likes me- my son and family like me- it was very different a few years ago, and sometimes you do need to change tact, being mindful definely helped me. you can always search for someone that will accept you for who you are- but if you a prick, you better learn to lower your standards for a bushpig of a woman with low self esteem.

my changes were worth it- but they defintely didnt start off being who i once was- and for that im greatful- if i met my old self today i would punch him in the face.

Please see above in bold print.


It's good to know you're a better man. And if you are, and you now are earning the respect of others and your own self-respect, it is because somehow you put the principle of good will to work in your life. Why? Because it's a part of who we are.

[Simon1972]

There is more to life than black and white.you don't agree with me, cool. Whatever works for you.

Not everyone is the same, and I stick by my post.if you choose to read mine closely I scatter the entire post with the proviso that it works in my situation.

Not yours.

Practice some of that goodwill you speakoff, not everyone will dance to your drum and nor should they. And they won't dance to mineeither .

My post was a summary of my life. Peace out

[2Sox]

There is more to life than black and white.you don't agree with me, cool. Whatever works for you.

Not everyone is the same, and I stick by my post.if you choose to read mine closely I scatter the entire post with the proviso that it works in my situation.

Not yours.

Practice some of that goodwill you speakoff, not everyone will dance to your drum and nor should they. And they won't dance to mineeither .

My post was a summary of my life. Peace out

Yep. Peace out.

[Simon1972]

Yep. Peace out.

All due respect 2Sox. I certainly don't want a disagreement in life philosophy to impinge upon our internet relationship. I respect your knowledge In many areas and certainly hope to continue to converse with you in the same game as past.

[bartman314]

and now for something really important... it's been more than 2 weeks for me. Arghhhhh. ;-)

[Simon1972]

and now for something really important... it's been more than 2 weeks for me. Arghhhhh. ;-)

Shlt !! I forgot all about you.

[2Sox]

All due respect 2Sox. I certainly don't want a disagreement in life philosophy to impinge upon our internet relationship. I respect your knowledge In many areas and certainly hope to continue to converse with you in the same game as past.

It's very clear to me that we agree on much more than what we disagree on. Thanks for your comment.

[Score]

and now for something really important... it's been more than 2 weeks for me. Arghhhhh. ;-)

I think it's safe to say, regardless of how strong your relationship is, there will often be times you aren't in the mood to do the same things.

So, how do you get others to do things they don't feel like doing?

Do you always feel - like going to work? Working out? Paying bills? Etc. I don't!

I do it for the outcome.

What can you offer your wife?

My wife wanted Christmas lights hung on the roof of our 2 story house. For years I have refused, this year I agreed, but I made it clear what I wanted in return..

November was a good month, and December has started off well.

The barter system has gotten me averaging twice a week. Not bad..

It's temporary I'm sure, but give it a shot?

[2Sox]

I think it's safe to say, regardless of how strong your relationship is, there will often be times you aren't in the mood to do the same things.

So, how do you get others to do things they don't feel like doing?

Do you always feel - like going to work? Working out? Paying bills? Etc. I don't!

I do it for the outcome.

What can you offer your wife?

My wife wanted Christmas lights hung on the roof of our 2 story house. For years I have refused, this year I agreed, but I made it clear what I wanted in return..

November was a good month, and December has started off well.

The barter system has gotten me averaging twice a week. Not bad..

It's temporary I'm sure, but give it a shot?

Some people may call this "barter". Others would call it bribery. A completely new concept that has very predictable outcomes and is a total winner in building a solid, long lasting, loving relationship. God awful. (IMO)

[Billegitimate]

I think it's safe to say, regardless of how strong your relationship is, there will often be times you aren't in the mood to do the same things.

So, how do you get others to do things they don't feel like doing?

Do you always feel - like going to work? Working out? Paying bills? Etc. I don't!

I do it for the outcome.

What can you offer your wife?

My wife wanted Christmas lights hung on the roof of our 2 story house. For years I have refused, this year I agreed, but I made it clear what I wanted in return..

November was a good month, and December has started off well.

The barter system has gotten me averaging twice a week. Not bad..

It's temporary I'm sure, but give it a shot?

This is just a step or two away from paying for it. Once you trade, barter, bribe, you move it out of a social norm into a market norm.

Trust me, you don't want to do this. Imagine how you would feel if you invited close friends over for dinner, you made them a great meal, and upon leaving your friends insisted they paid you because it was so good. They force a few 20s into your hands, and leave.

They destroyed the good feelings of entertaining and enjoying a social value.

The goal is a loving, intimate connection with your wife. The sexual part comes because you've caused her to feel attraction to you. The attraction as an aspect of your sexual value, something that each gender ascribes to the other, usually subconsciously.

Men easily ascribe a high sexual value to a physically attractive woman. Other factors are important, but that can be enough. Women ascribe high sexual value to a man based on a much more complex set of attributes, with varying weights for each according to the particular woman.

Your job is to figure out which traits your woman will incorporate in determining (subconsciously) your sexual value, then amplify those traits in yourself.

We've all seen the gorgeous girl with the asshole. Well, women don't find asshole/jerk attractive, but that asshole probably naturally exudes some other trait that does cause him to be high value. Perhaps it's his degree of autonomy. His confidence? Maybe his willingness to get in a fight means he'll physically protect her.

Examine who your wife dated before. Look at the ones she clearly had a hard time letting go. Find the common thread.

Also, I've seen women pay $1500 for a purse because of the name of the designer. Nothing special about it, but because all the other girls think it's valuable she does too. Now look at the women Mick Jagger has had. He's an ugly mug, but enough women wanted him that he has sexual value just because all those other women want him.

The woman you're with is probably not too motivated by your muscles, but if she sees the other women in the gym checking you out then she'll experience it as an increase in your sexual value due to the validation.

It's a puzzle. Not a mystery, just start putting the pieces together, read, research, experiment.

Give your wife the gift of feeling she's landed someone of higher value than she's ever had and the sex will not be a chore to be traded, but an expression of what she values.