Holy Shat! 220 T level!

[Rydney]

Nurse called me today. Only thing she said was T level was 220, actually 226. Never thought I'd be that low. I go back in two weeks to test again and if lower than 300 again insurance picks up my TRT.

First off, doc knew nothing about cycling T with clomid, only said I could do T or clomid. T was shots or cream.

How do the shots work if you go that route, and if the creams how long is that stuff good for, meaning could I cycle off on my own, use the clomid I get from India to PCT, and then go back to TRT and still have the cream be good, or shots if I can save those up too.

Anyone ever do anything like this because doc told me that if I go TRT the balls are gone and that's a little spooky at 41.

[Rydney]

Oh, and he said self pay was around $1700/month for TRT.

Dafuk is he talking about that would cost that much?

[almostgone]

Oh, and he said self pay was around $1700/month for TRT.

Dafuk is he talking about that would cost that much?

Nurse called me today. Only thing she said was T level was 220, actually 226. Never thought I'd be that low. I go back in two weeks to test again and if lower than 300 again insurance picks up my TRT.

First off, doc knew nothing about cycling T with clomid, only said I could do T or clomid. T was shots or cream.

How do the shots work if you go that route, and if the creams how long is that stuff good for, meaning could I cycle off on my own, use the clomid I get from India to PCT, and then go back to TRT and still have the cream be good, or shots if I can save those up too.

Anyone ever do anything like this because doc told me that if I go TRT the balls are gone and that's a little spooky at 41.

That is a ridiculous price. Also, your balls won't be gone with a properly managed progressive TRT. HCG will help in that department.
I would suggest Dr. shopping or contact IncreaseMyT.
I don't know of too many mixing Clomid with replacement T. I have heard of younger guys attempting a Clomid restart of HPTA/HPGA with varying degrees of success. I'm not a Dr.or healthcare professional, but I would suggest continuing to research on your own and not rely solely on your Drs. input.
Good luck!

[Mr.BB]

Nurse called me today. Only thing she said was T level was 220, actually 226. Never thought I'd be that low. I go back in two weeks to test again and if lower than 300 again insurance picks up my TRT.

First off, doc knew nothing about cycling T with clomid, only said I could do T or clomid. T was shots or cream.

How do the shots work if you go that route, and if the creams how long is that stuff good for, meaning could I cycle off on my own, use the clomid I get from India to PCT, and then go back to TRT and still have the cream be good, or shots if I can save those up too.

Anyone ever do anything like this because doc told me that if I go TRT the balls are gone and that's a little spooky at 41.

First, I wouldnt be confortable with a nurse calling me discussing specifics of my exams, it is very different in my little corner of the world, exams and results are only discussed with doctor. Do nurses have the same confidentiality code as doctors? (legit question as im ignorant in this matter)
Second, did you ask the doctor the reason for low T? Maybe you already know the reason, still maybe its better to confirm it, no?
Clomid by it self it is a form of TRT, as it can elevate LH making testes produce more T, it doesnt work in all kinds of low T, you need a proper diagnostic to evaluate this.
Nothing wrong with testosterone injections, if thats your decision, if you suffer from low T symptoms it can definitely help you, but its not a walk in a park, there are side effects that need to be dealt, etc. Make sure you know what you are getting yourself into (research) before taking the plunge. And yes, your testes will be shutdown while on testosterone, HCG will help by mimicking LH.
Testosterone with clomid doesnt make much sense, because testosterone will block any positive effect clomid would have leaving you with only the bad effects it can have. Cycling testosterone and clomid/PCT, is for bodybuilders, it has nothing to do with Testosterone Replacement Therapy. If you star TRT it is for life.

As you know testosterone levels decline as we age, still my advice would be make sure there is no underlying condition promoting the Low T. A number of conditions, including lifestyle, can lower T levels directly or indirectly, and alleviating this condition can help with the low T.

At 1700$ a month I would also be trying to sell low T treatment to my clients without much regard for whats causing it lol. The money is not in fixing health problems, it is in life long treatments...

[almostgone]

First, I wouldnt be confortable with a nurse calling me discussing specifics of my exams, it is very different in my little corner of the world, exams and results are only discussed with doctor. Do nurses have the same confidentiality code as doctors? (legit question as im ignorant in this matter).
Second, did you ask the doctor the reason for low T? Maybe you already know the reason, still maybe its better to confirm it, no?
Clomid by it self it is a form of TRT, as it can elevate LH making testes produce more T, it doesnt work in all kinds of low T, you need a proper diagnostic to evaluate this.
Nothing wrong with testosterone injections, if thats your decision, if you suffer from low T symptoms it can definitely help you, but its not a walk in a park, there are side effects that need to be dealt, etc. Make sure you know what you are getting yourself into (research) before taking the plunge. And yes, your testes will be shutdown while on testosterone, HCG will help by mimicking LH.
Testosterone with clomid doesnt make much sense, because testosterone will block any positive effect clomid would have leaving you with only the bad effects it can have. Cycling testosterone and clomid/PCT, is for bodybuilders, it has nothing to do with Testosterone Replacement Therapy. If you star TRT it is for life.

As you know testosterone levels decline as we age, still my advice would be make sure there is no underlying condition promoting the Low T. A number of conditions, including lifestyle, can lower T levels directly or indirectly, and alleviating this condition can help with the low T.

At 1700$ a month I would also be trying to sell low T treatment to my clients without much regard for whats causing it lol. The money is not in fixing health problems, it is in life long treatments...

The way it was explained to me, anyone that handles sensitive patient data is subject to HIPAA. Also, it is common (at least at my Dr.) for the nurse to contact you with lab values. However, at many Drs.you can use an app like Chartspan to access your records and labs.

[IncreaseMyT]

The way it was explained to me, anyone that handles sensitive patient data is subject to HIPAA.

That is correct. This goes all the way down the line even to the software programmers that work on the EHR's

This is why a lot of men and women use us, since we are a cash pay network we are not allowed to disclose your records to anyone for any reason without your express written consent per document per federal law.

OP really glad you went and got your lab work done as we suggested, just give us a call we can help you and have you on TRT under the care of a licensed physician within 5 days.

Look forward to speaking with you.

[Youthful55guy]

I've not heard of guys cycling TRT with Clomid. I have heard (and occasionally do myself) use low dose clomid (12 mg/day) with TRT to help prevent testicular atrophy. It's a lot less expensive than HCG and easier to get. I can't go over 12 mg/day because of estrogenic side-effects, but if I stay under that I'm fine.

HCG is very effective at preventing testicular atrophy, but is pricey and you need a Dr. script if you want to get it through legal channels. From what I hear, getting insurance to pay for it is going to be difficult. I'm self-pay for everything. My injectable T is dirt cheap compared to most drugs, so I don't even bother with fighting the insurance battle. Insurance covers all the doc fees and labs, which is the expensive part of TRT.

Given the choice of topicals or injectable, I'd go injectable because then you know exactly how much T is actually getting into your body. however, I know of many guys happy with the results of the topical products, so it's really comes down to personal preference.

[Mr.BB]

I've not heard of guys cycling TRT with Clomid. I have heard (and occasionally do myself) use low dose clomid (12 mg/day) with TRT to help prevent testicular atrophy.

It doesnt work while on TRT, the negative feedback of testosterone is much stronger than the clomid effect on hypotalamus, no LH is released from the pituitary.

I buy 5000ui HCG here at pharmacy for 5 euros lol

[IncreaseMyT]

I buy 5000ui HCG here at pharmacy for 5 euros lol

Why kind of HCG do you guys get for that price? Is it Pregnyl?

[Mr.BB]

Why kind of HCG do you guys get for that price? Is it Pregnyl?

Thats right, pregnyl.

[IncreaseMyT]

Thats strange thats really close to what it costs to make the generic version of pregynl, good for you though.

[Mr.BB]

Thats strange thats really close to what it costs to make the generic version of pregynl, good for you though.

Yeah, yeah, I have a special price directly from the factory.

If you want I'll pm you my connection

[hammerheart]

It doesnt work while on TRT, the negative feedback of testosterone is much stronger than the clomid effect on hypotalamus, no LH is released from the pituitary.

I buy 5000ui HCG here at pharmacy for 5 euros lol

Same in Italy.

[IncreaseMyT]

Yea I am surprised its that cheap if its generic version pregnyl. Even if you already have a prescription for HCG , on good RX the cheapest you can get brand pregnyl for is $30 bucks (thats only at Walmart and Sams everywhere else is $80) and generic is $100 here in the states.

So not sure why it would so much cheaper there but my initial thought was that it was hucog. Not sure of the rules over there. Here only Ovidrel, Novarel and Pregnyl versions are available.

I dont imagine the price going down anytime soon here in the states either, it is now a control in NY and California.

Good for you guys though seriously, thats dirt cheap for good HCG.

[Mr.BB]

Same in Italy.

Man, you ruined my joke

---

And, its not generic, its from MSD (Merck outside US).

The correct price here is 4.73€, so 5.23$us at todays xrate. Im sure in India is even cheaper.

[Youthful55guy]

It doesnt work while on TRT, the negative feedback of testosterone is much stronger than the clomid effect on hypotalamus, no LH is released from the pituitary.

That's simply not true. Personal experience, and my very well known TRT doc, and a host of endocrinology textbooks says otherwise. From a physiological perspective the main feedback inhibition hormone in both the male and female is E2.

[Mr.BB]

That's simply not true. Personal experience, and my very well known TRT doc, and a host of endocrinology textbooks says otherwise. From a physiological perspective the main feedback inhibition hormone in both the male and female is E2.

Did you ever checked your LH in bloodwork to prove this?

[PersuAsian]

That's simply not true. Personal experience, and my very well known TRT doc, and a host of endocrinology textbooks says otherwise. From a physiological perspective the main feedback inhibition hormone in both the male and female is E2.

Very interested in this too. I always thought as Mr. BB does. This would be cheaper than HCG and two less pins a week for me.

Could you please link the studies or references you are talking about?

[Rydney]

I've not heard of guys cycling TRT with Clomid. I have heard (and occasionally do myself) use low dose clomid (12 mg/day) with TRT to help prevent testicular atrophy. It's a lot less expensive than HCG and easier to get. I can't go over 12 mg/day because of estrogenic side-effects, but if I stay under that I'm fine.

HCG is very effective at preventing testicular atrophy, but is pricey and you need a Dr. script if you want to get it through legal channels. From what I hear, getting insurance to pay for it is going to be difficult. I'm self-pay for everything. My injectable T is dirt cheap compared to most drugs, so I don't even bother with fighting the insurance battle. Insurance covers all the doc fees and labs, which is the expensive part of TRT.

Given the choice of topicals or injectable, I'd go injectable because then you know exactly how much T is actually getting into your body. however, I know of many guys happy with the results of the topical products, so it's really comes down to personal preference.

So Clomid during TRT with help with the atrophy? I was thinking cycling just like a bodybuilder and while yes, it's different, why wouldn't it work to raise T levels for a couple months, then Clomid for a month to keep things alive (even if it's just 229 total and 16.5 free levels like I have) and then back to the TRT and on and on? That was my thought to avoid losing all the plumbing because my understanding is HCG is only prescribed while on TRT so a man can get his wife pregnant, insurance won't even cover it while you're on TRT and you have to go off of it while you're on HCG.

IncreaseMyT: If my T levels are below 300 on two tests two weeks apart insurance picks up the tab, so going this route for now. Thanks for your help.

[kelkel]

That's simply not true. Personal experience, and my very well known TRT doc, and a host of endocrinology textbooks says otherwise. From a physiological perspective the main feedback inhibition hormone in both the male and female is E2.

Y55G I'd need to see the studies as well as I've personally done BW while on TRT and running nolva which shows zero movement in LH levels. Further, if clomid worked as per normal when on exogenous testosterone and it elevated a persons LH level then there would never be a need for pct, ever.

[Rydney]

Very interested in this too. I always thought as Mr. BB does. This would be cheaper than HCG and two less pins a week for me.

Could you please link the studies or references you are talking about?

Ditto, please provide blood numbers and/or references, thank you.

[Rydney]

So Clomid during TRT with help with the atrophy? I was thinking cycling just like a bodybuilder and while yes, it's different, why wouldn't it work to raise T levels for a couple months, then Clomid for a month to keep things alive (even if it's just 229 total and 16.5 free levels like I have) and then back to the TRT and on and on? That was my thought to avoid losing all the plumbing because my understanding is HCG is only prescribed while on TRT so a man can get his wife pregnant, insurance won't even cover it while you're on TRT and you have to go off of it while you're on HCG.

IncreaseMyT: If my T levels are below 300 on two tests two weeks apart insurance picks up the tab, so going this route for now. Thanks for your help.

I worded that wrong. Using exogenous T for a couple months and then Clomid for a month to keep some plumbing working, even if low as hell like mine, but at least it helps with atrophy. Going off exogenous T during the Clomid month. Why would this not work? Serious question

[kelkel]

I worded that wrong. Using exogenous T for a couple months and then Clomid for a month to keep some plumbing working, even if low as hell like mine, but at least it helps with atrophy. Going off exogenous T during the Clomid month. Why would this not work? Serious question

Well, once the T is mostly out of your system (depending on the ester) it will help stimulate production. Same concept BB'ers use in PCT. Although I really think the effort is futile and you're simply throwing wrenches at your HPTA. If you need TRT, stay on TRT and if concerned about fertility, etc then use HCG . It's pointless to basically try to restart your system in essentially two weeks, assuming test C or E is used for TRT.

[Rydney]

Well, once the T is mostly out of your system (depending on the ester) it will help stimulate production. Same concept BB'ers use in PCT. Although I really think the effort is futile and you're simply throwing wrenches at your HPTA. If you need TRT, stay on TRT and if concerned about fertility, etc then use HCG. It's pointless to basically try to restart your system in essentially two weeks, assuming test C or E is used for TRT.

What would be a proper way to do that then, if I was willing to go off T and go on Clomid long enough to avoid atrophy. Or am I just being a panzy and not having a nut sack isn't as big a deal as I'm making it.

And this is changing the topic but what happens when the T levels are up from exogenous T and I get tested again and I'm "normal range"? Are those two tests below 300 good for life when it comes to insurance? That question is in case anyone knows, I'll find out eventually, more interested in how I properly TRT and keep my balls.

[kelkel]

What would be a proper way to do that then, if I was willing to go off T and go on Clomid long enough to avoid atrophy. Or am I just being a panzy and not having a nut sack isn't as big a deal as I'm making it.

And this is changing the topic but what happens when the T levels are up from exogenous T and I get tested again and I'm "normal range"? Are those two tests below 300 good for life when it comes to insurance? That question is in case anyone knows, I'll find out eventually, more interested in how I properly TRT and keep my balls.

To paraphrase your words, "yes, you're being a panzy." It simply makes no sense to put your body through this hpta roller coaster when introducing HCG will do exactly what you desire. Size of your "boys" doesn't really matter. Function does and that is what HCG will do. Keep them functioning and thus, maintain size as well.

Once legitimately put on TRT you do not then have to periodically show low ranges to continue. That would not make any sense. You just have to show normal, healthy ranges that you and your doctor are comfortable with.

[Rydney]

To paraphrase your words, "yes, you're being a panzy." It simply makes no sense to put your body through this hpta roller coaster when introducing HCG will do exactly what you desire. Size of your "boys" doesn't really matter. Function does and that is what HCG will do. Keep them functioning and thus, maintain size as well.

Once legitimately put on TRT you do not then have to periodically show low ranges to continue. That would not make any sense. You just have to show normal, healthy ranges that you and your doctor are comfortable with.

I did not think HCG was an option unless you tell the doc you want to have kids, and then they take you off TRT. My doc didn't even mention HCG. If insurance is picking up the bill how likely is it I can ask him to give me both at the same time? Has anyone else had a doc do this for them?

[Rydney]

And if on TRT is there any need for an anti-estrogen agent? Does Clomid work for that, and so would there be any benefit to using Clomid and TRT at the same time?

Lost of questions I could ask my doc but I'd rather get answers here first. He's an awesome doc, just not sure how into TRT he is if he never mentioned HCG .

[kelkel]

I did not think HCG was an option unless you tell the doc you want to have kids, and then they take you off TRT. My doc didn't even mention HCG. If insurance is picking up the bill how likely is it I can ask him to give me both at the same time? Has anyone else had a doc do this for them?

If you googled the package insert for Pregnyl and read it you'll find one of its uses is for Hypogonadic Hypogonadism. Print it and give it to your doc. Re insurance your doc may need to write a brief letter of medical necessity to your insurer. Yes, my doc writes me for HCG and always has.

And if on TRT is there any need for an anti-estrogen agent? Does Clomid work for that, and so would there be any benefit to using Clomid and TRT at the same time?

Lost of questions I could ask my doc but I'd rather get answers here first. He's an awesome doc, just not sure how into TRT he is if he never mentioned HCG.

The goal is to not have to use an AI but blood work will dictate whether you need it or not. Clomid is not an AI and there's no need for it on TRT.

[Mr.BB]

Y55G I'd need to see the studies as well as I've personally done BW while on TRT and running nolva which shows zero movement in LH levels. Further, if clomid worked as per normal when on exogenous testosterone and it elevated a persons LH level then there would never be a need for pct, ever.

We had this discussion before.

The basic principle is depicted in this pic:





Still it is a lot more complicated than this. Let me introduce a good (not perfect) paper for those really interested in the males gonadal disorders: https://www.uthsc.edu/endocrinology/...-Childress.pdf

Quoting from this paper:

Negative-feedback of GnRH release is exerted by testosterone through androgen receptors present in the hypothalamic neurons and in the pituitary.

Testosterone acts primarily to feedback at the level of the hypothalamus whereas estrogens provide feedback to the pituitary to modulate the gonadotropin secretion response to each GnRH surge.

Although the mechanism of action of clomiphene is not absolutely clear, most evidence indicates that it interferes at a hypothalamic level with steroid feedback inhibition of gonadotropin secretion.

[Youthful55guy]

And if on TRT is there any need for an anti-estrogen agent? Does Clomid work for that, and so would there be any benefit to using Clomid and TRT at the same time?

Lost of questions I could ask my doc but I'd rather get answers here first. He's an awesome doc, just not sure how into TRT he is if he never mentioned HCG.

HCG is probably the best route to go for preventing testicular atrophy, but it is pricey and difficult to get. Many docs refuse to prescribe it. I am fortunate that my doc is a bit more progressive and I can get it legally. However, it costs a lot.

You need to monitor and keep E2 conversion under control. It's not difficult, but a lot of guys (and docs) either ignore it or go overboard. The most important thing is to have the correct labs done and adjust your anti-E med (most often anastrozole) to keep E2 within normal ranges for men.

Clomid works differently than the classic anti-E med such as anastrozole. Anastrozole works by blocking the conversion of T to E2. On the other hand, Clomid is a selective E2 receptor blocker that mostly targets the hypothalamus of the brain where GnRH is produced. E2 is the predominate negative feedback hormone in both men and women, so by "blocking" it's effect, increased GnRH (hence LH and FSH) is the result. It has it's limits due to some low level estorgenic activity itself. Personally, I can only tolerate up to about 12 mg per day.

Regarding clomid + TRT, regardless of the previous counter posts, my experience is that it does and can work as a substitute for HCG (although I prefer HCG). It was prescribed to me for this purpose by a well respected TRT specialist. I'm just not going to hijack this thread by engaging in a point-counterpoint n argument here.

[Mr.BB]

Clomid works differently than the classic anti-E med such as anastrozole. Anastrozole works by blocking the conversion of T to E2. On the other hand, Clomid is a selective E2 receptor blocker MODULATOR that mostly targets the hypothalamus of the brain where GnRH is produced. E2 is the predominate negative feedback hormone in both men and women, so by "blocking" it's effect, increased GnRH (hence LH and FSH) is the result. It has it's limits due to some low level estorgenic activity itself. Personally, I can only tolerate up to about 12 mg per day.

Regarding clomid + TRT, regardless of the previous counter posts, my experience is that it does and can work as a substitute for HCG (although I prefer HCG). It was prescribed to me for this purpose by a well respected TRT specialist. I'm just not going to hijack this thread by engaging in a point-counterpoint n argument here.

This is a interesting discussion, dont worry about the thread Corrected your post a little bit.

Did you read my post? In men the negative feedback is done by testosterone (still other hormones will influence, but mostly androgens).

Still, if you can prove this with bloodwork showing LH higher than 0.1 it would be very interesting for the whole community.

[kelkel]

HCG is probably the best route to go for preventing testicular atrophy, but it is pricey and difficult to get. Many docs refuse to prescribe it. I am fortunate that my doc is a bit more progressive and I can get it legally. However, it costs a lot.

Mine's prescribed but many guys here order it on-line. 5K IU's in in the $40 range and less if you order more. Not to bad.


I'm just not going to hijack this thread by engaging in a point-counterpoint n argument here.

Not an argument, an interesting discussion. All points of view are welcome as it's how we learn from each other.

[macmathews]

This is a interesting discussion, dont worry about the thread Corrected your post a little bit.

Did you read my post? In men the negative feedback is done by testosterone (still other hormones will influence, but mostly androgens).

Still, if you can prove this with bloodwork showing LH higher than 0.1 it would be very interesting for the whole community.

So I understand you..
Are we talking about LH higher than .1 while on Test injections and Clomid ?

Mac

[Mr.BB]

So I understand you..
Are we talking about LH higher than .1 while on Test injections and Clomid ?

Yes, have you tested this?

[IncreaseMyT]

Ive seen it, if they are on T they are gonna be .02 no matter how much clomid they add.

On HCG ....well maybe I guess. Haven't done it over here yet but I know there is a study where they do HCG, AI and SERM together, I looked real quick can't find it will look later.

[Rydney]

Impressive posts from everyone, can't thank you enough. Especially kelkel for helping me plan my next doc visit.

It also looks as if my source for other stuff carries HCG as well. Is it against the rules to ask where one can get this stuff tested to see if it's real? Are there any medical labs that will do that for you?

[Youthful55guy]

Hey guys,

Sorry for not responding earlier to the posts requesting data on clomid. It's been a crazy work week in prep for an extended vacation. Probably won't get much of a chance to respond again for another week too.

I do not have any LH labs to show that Clomid works while on TRT. I only have my personal experience with testicular atrophy and my expert doc's opinion that it works.

Based on past experience, if I discontinue HCG injections (I usually range from 500 to 700 IU/week in split doses), there will be significant testicular atrophy (as judged subjectively through palpation) in less than 4 weeks. I've never gone more than 4 weeks without HCG in my entire 4 1/2 years on TRT. It's an self-image thing, I just don't like having pre-puberal sized testicles.

HCG works, no doubt about it, but it is expensive. After discussing this with my hormone doc, he wrote me a script for Clomid and said that it would work in place of HCG. His script was for 50 mg 3X per week, but I had difficulty with that dose due to estorgenic side-effects (mostly low T type brain fog issues). I shelved it for many months and then after reading about other guys doing the same in other forums, decided to try it again but at a lower daily dose. I was able to quarter the pills with a cutter and took an average of 12.5 mg per day with no noticeable side-effects. I continued this experiment for 5 weeks until I ran out of the script. My observations were no noticeable reduction in testicular size, even after 5 weeks without HCG. In the end I decided to go back to HCG, but after some recent price increases from my pharmacy, I'm considering other options again.

Some other things to keep in mid:

1) LH is secreted in a highly pulsatile fashion and about half of the daily amount is secreted during sleep. So random blood samples are hit or miss with regard to finding an LH pulse. Believe it or not, I actually did my master's thesis on this topic and have measured thousands of blood samples for LH, so I am very familiar with LH secretion patterns.

2) The seminiferous tubules comprise most (~70%) of the testicular mass, so it's more than likely that FSH has a much greater affect on testicular size than LH. HCG has both LH and FSH cross-reactivity, but prdominately LH activity. More than likely the testicular volume enhancement that guys on TRT notice is due to it's latent FSH activity.

3) Clomid works by selectively blocking E2 negative feedback on the hypothalamus. Thus increasing GnRH secretion. Since GnRH stimulates both LH and FSH sectretion from the pituitary, it is most likely that it's testicular size affects are due to FSH and not LH.

It just makes more sense to feed the testicles FSH than LH if maintenance of testicular size is the goal. Unfortunately, in human medicine, our choices are rather limited for supplementing FSH. You can purchase HMG, which is pretty much simply purified FSH from post-meanapausal women. But it has a much shorted half life than HCG and makes HCG look like a fire sale when you compare cost. In the veterinary world, there is PMSG (Pregnant Mare Serum Gonadotropin), which has predominately FSH activity and only slight LH activity, but it is not FDA approved for humans and I don't even know if it's commercially available in the USA.

Hope this helps sort through the posted questions.

[IncreaseMyT]

Not to be argumentative, just for educational purposes.

Clomiphene citrate, 100–200 mg/day for 6–9 days, stimulated the pituitary-Leydig cell axis in 14 normal men as evidenced by an increase in plasma LH and testosterone levels after 2 and 6 days, respectively. After 6 days of clomiphene, LH levels increased by 160% and testosterone levels 80 %. The elevation of plasma testosterone concentration was due to increased testosterone secretion rather than decreased clearance of this steroid from blood. Clomiphene had no effect upon the LH and testosterone levels of men in whom these hormones were suppressed with the synthetic androgen, fluoxymesterone. In men with hypopituitarism clomiphene did not increase plasma LH or stimulate testosterone secretion. Clomiphene stimulates the pituitary-Leydig cell axis in men by inducing LH release. Clomiphene may be useful clinically in the evaluation of the capacity of the anterior pituitary to secrete LH.

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/1...cem-27-11-1558

Also think it may be inhibitory to growth hormone secretion though inactivation of E2 receptors.

Just our 2 cents.

[Youthful55guy]

Not to be argumentative, just for educational purposes.



http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/1...cem-27-11-1558

Also think it may be inhibitory to growth hormone secretion though inactivation of E2 receptors.

Just our 2 cents.

Understood, not being argumentative either. Per my previous post, I believe that the primary mechanism of action HCG for maintenance of testicular size is it's latent FSH activity, which has nothing to do with Leydig cell activation. So measurement of LH is not an appropriate surrogate endpoint for testicular atrophy.

Also, negative feedback is much more complicated than simply estrogens or androgens feeding back on the hypothalamus/pituitary. There are at least 2 testicular produced peptides that modulate the system and tweaks whether LH or FSH is released in response to GnRH. Activin sensitizes the pituitary to release FSH preferentially to LH and Inhibin has the opposite effect. I seen to remember reading somewhere that there was a third modulating peptide, but I can't recall it's name.

The GH inhibition thing is interesting. Can you expand on that hypothesis? I certainly would not want to dampen my already pathetic IGF-1 levels.

[IncreaseMyT]

Just posted this in another thread so thought it was interesting. PS I can't stand Clomid and think its next to worthless so I might be somewhat bias lol

To determine whether testosterone modulates the somatotropic axis in adult males, we compared 24-h GH secretion (from 20-min sampling, using Cluster analysis) and insulin -like growth factor-I (IGF-I) levels of five hypogonadal men (aged 20-32 yr) with those of six normal men (aged 21-27 yr), and examined the effects of testosterone replacement (testosterone enanthate 250 mg im monthly). To elucidate whether the action of testosterone on the somatotropic axis is direct, or requires the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, we also examined the effects of the non********* antiestrogen, tamoxifen (20 mg/day for 3 weeks), on 24-h GH secretion and IGF-I levels in the normal men and in four of the hypogonadal men during concurrent testosterone treatment. Compared to the normal men, the hypogonadal men had significantly reduced mean GH pulse amplitude (3.1 +/- 0.6 vs. 8.4 +/- 1.7 micrograms/L, P < 0.05), but not pulse frequency. Testosterone treatment resulted in a significant increase in 24-h mean serum GH (0.7 +/- 0.2 to 1.4 +/- 0.2 micrograms/L, P < 0.05), mean GH pulse amplitude (3.1 +/- 0.6 to 5.2 +/- 0.8 micrograms/L, P < 0.01) and serum IGF-I (0.9 +/- 0.1 to 1.1 +/- 0.1 U/mL, P < 0.05). In the normal men, tamoxifen significantly reduced 24-h mean serum GH (1.1 +/- 0.3 to 0.5 +/- 0.1 micrograms/L, P < 0.05), mean GH pulse amplitude (8.4 +/- 1.7 to 4.7 +/- 0.4 micrograms/L, P < 0.05), and serum IGF-I (1.0 +/- 0.1 to 0.7 +/- 0.1 U/mL, P < 0.001). In the hypogonadal men on testosterone replacement, tamoxifen lowered 24-h mean serum GH (1.3 +/- 0.2 to 0.6 +/- 0.2 micrograms/L, P < 0.01), mean GH pulse amplitude (5.5 +/- 1.0 to 2.4 +/- 0.8 micrograms/L, P < 0.01), and serum IGF-I (1.2 +/- 0.1 to 0.8 +/- 0.1 U/mL, P < 0.05). We conclude that testosterone plays an important role in the modulation of the male somatotropic axis in adulthood, as appears to be the case in puberty, and that this effect is partly dependent on the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/1...m.76.6.8501143

So i guess my question is, since aroma affected GH pulse size, I wonder if this is from inactivation of E2 receptors.

Kind of makes sense now that we are finding out how important estradiol is.

Studies have demonstrated that estrogens may be at least as important as, if not more important, than androgens for maintenance of skeletal health in men.(8–10)

Objective

Strenuous training commonly results in amenorrhea, which contributes to bone loss in some female collegiate athletes. However, the impact of athletic training on endocrine function and bone mineral density (BMD) in male collegiate athletes is less well understood. The objective of the study was to investigate the specific endocrine determinants of BMD in male collegiate runners and wrestlers, including the potential impact of gonadal steroid levels.

Results

Free and total estradiol levels were important positive determinants of BMD. In contrast, total and free testosterone levels were not significant predictors of BMD at any skeletal site (except for free testosterone at the radius). In addition, fat-free mass, % ideal body weight, total body weight, body mass index (BMI), and hours per week of resistance training were positive predictors of BMD. VO2 max was a negative predictor of BMD. Mean BMD was higher at all skeletal sites in the wrestlers compared to the runners and a comparison group (golfers).

Estradiol Levels Predict Bone Mineral Density in Male Collegiate Athletes: A Pilot Study