All this talk about an AI

[macmathews]

When I was on TRT I remember using

120Mg / week Test E.. My doc was really leaving me on my own but would prescribe T without question..
I decided after about 3 weeks on I needed an AI. (without BW) I was uneducated and my doctor not much better..
So I started with chem labs Drops, I was taking them every 2nd day which worked out to .75mg Week.

So at the 6 week mark after injections and about 3-4 weeks after Anastrozole my Total T came back at about 600.. I never got Free T.
And my Estradiol 17-Beta at 18.. Not sure of the range.. but I noted it was well within it..

I was DOG tired and my joints hurt Awful bad. Especially elbows and wrists.. I was too sore to even train.
But I remember thinking blood work says im Ok..

QUESTION IS :
Could this be a labwork timing thing or what would explain the fact that my bloodwork was OK.. But I was not..
Maybe my E2 just needs to be a little higher ?? AS another example during a clomid restart of 25mg EOD my E2 was 70 on a scale of less than 40.. I felt like watching the notebook..

This lack of my own knowledge and no professional help is what caused me to drop TRT.

Mac

[IncreaseMyT]

You were taking too much. Joint pain from the low E.

[Youthful55guy]

Gut response is that you should drop the anastrozole or at least cut it in half and see how you feel. Half life is around 3 days if i recall, so E2 should rebound in a week or 2.

Secondly, you really do need to have labs guide you when mucking with hormones, particularly E2. Most guys are paranoid of it, but even guys need some E2 for normal function. Drive it too far down and ED is a typical response. One of those ironies of biology is that guys need some E2 for normal erections.

I'd also keep a log of all your labs and your protocol at the time of the labs. I keep mine in an Excel spreadsheet. After a few years they all blend together in your head and it gets difficult to sort things out. What works and what doesn't.

Finally, I'm a huge proponent of more frequent injections. I think 1X per week is old school and you should break up your dose. A lot of guys here will disagree with me, but that's been my experience. I also found that when going from weekly to E3D, I could cut the dose way back. So you may be able to get that down to about 40-10 mg 2X per week (I prefer 40 mg E3D). You will get a much smoother ride.

[macmathews]

Gut response is that you should drop the anastrozole or at least cut it in half and see how you feel. Half life is around 3 days if i recall, so E2 should rebound in a week or 2.

Secondly, you really do need to have labs guide you when mucking with hormones, particularly E2. Most guys are paranoid of it, but even guys need some E2 for normal function. Drive it too far down and ED is a typical response. One of those ironies of biology is that guys need some E2 for normal erections.

I'd also keep a log of all your labs and your protocol at the time of the labs. I keep mine in an Excel spreadsheet. After a few years they all blend together in your head and it gets difficult to sort things out. What works and what doesn't.

Finally, I'm a huge proponent of more frequent injections. I think 1X per week is old school and you should break up your dose. A lot of guys here will disagree with me, but that's been my experience. I also found that when going from weekly to E3D, I could cut the dose way back. So you may be able to get that down to about 40-10 mg 2X per week (I prefer 40 mg E3D). You will get a much smoother ride.

how would you stay on a schedule of E3D ? What did you follow to tell you what day to inject, since its not the same 2 days of the week ? Life seems so hectic, I sometimes forget what day it really is

Mac

[Youthful55guy]

I programmed it into my computer calendar and it had an alarm message for me every morning when it was time to inject. I used the method for many years and it worked well.

About a year ago, I went even further and broke the E3D dose into a daily dose, so now I inject very small doses daily. I actually don't feel any difference going from E3D to daily and on occasion (like on vacations or travel) I go back to E3D. In theory though, the smaller the dose, the less your peak value, so the less likely there will be E2 conversion issues. Bottom line is I feel no different.

My method for daily is to draw up a 3 day supply in a 28G 1/2 inch needle insulin syringe. Inject 0.06 to 0.1 mL (I use a compounded T) and then swab down the needle and hub. Recap and repeat for two more days before disposing of the syringe and starting with a fresh one.

[Proximal]

how would you stay on a schedule of E3D ? What did you follow to tell you what day to inject, since its not the same 2 days of the week ? Life seems so hectic, I sometimes forget what day it really is

Mac

I literally update a sheet and tape it to my medicine cabinet. Between TRT, AI, HCG , liver support, cabergoline for adenoma, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc. At 57, about the only thing I NEVER forget is to go to the bathroom - so I can't miss the sheet LOL.

[IncreaseMyT]

hahahaha

[hammerheart]

QUESTION IS :
Could this be a labwork timing thing or what would explain the fact that my bloodwork was OK.. But I was not..
Maybe my E2 just needs to be a little higher ?? AS another example during a clomid restart of 25mg EOD my E2 was 70 on a scale of less than 40.. I felt like watching the notebook..

Was it standard or sensitive? A 18 pg/ml for standard assay might equal very low for sensitive.

Timing is obv important.

With weekly injections, rate of aromatization will differ throughout the week.

If you keep ANA at a fixed EOD dosage, E2 might be just right on days 1-3 but perhaps crash on days 5-7. That's why some take their weekly AI in a single dose after pin day, just before both test and E2 start ramping up.


Personally, I had a constellation of symptoms consistent with high estradiol:

Water retention,
severe bloating
increased BP
oilness
dizziness
insomnia
lack of morning wood
brain fog
emotional lability (crying on movies)
irritability
dysphoria (moodiness)
carb cravings
high SHBG
decreased FT4/FT3 (supposedly via TBG upregulation).


All of these while on nebido. I never checked for E2 at the time, as it would have been of no use. But since going on Test E, I knew it could have been even more of a problem due to faster release, so when I started having issues suggestive of high E2 I jump started on adex, even if no BW was made. Fortunately, that got rid of the sides classically associated with high E2, making TRT more bearable.

[macmathews]

Was it standard or sensitive? A 18 pg/ml for standard assay might equal very low for sensitive.

Timing is obv important.

With weekly injections, rate of aromatization will differ throughout the week.

If you keep ANA at a fixed EOD dosage, E2 might be just right on days 1-3 but perhaps crash on days 5-7. That's why some take their weekly AI in a single dose after pin day, just before both test and E2 start ramping up.


Personally, I had a constellation of symptoms consistent with high estradiol:

Water retention, YES - BAD
severe bloating NO
increased BP NOT SURE
oilness NOT SURE
dizziness YES
insomnia NO
lack of morning wood NOT SURE
brain fog WORST
emotional lability (crying on movies) YES
irritability YES
dysphoria (moodiness) BAD
carb cravings YES
high SHBG ELEVATED TO TWICE MY NORMAL
decreased FT4/FT3 (supposedly via TBG upregulation).


All of these while on nebido. I never checked for E2 at the time, as it would have been of no use. But since going on Test E, I knew it could have been even more of a problem due to faster release, so when I started having issues suggestive of high E2 I jump started on adex, even if no BW was made. Fortunately, that got rid of the sides classically associated with high E2, making TRT more bearable.

I added above
I never understood the timing of the AI dose before.. I didn't realize it would act to fast.
the E2 test is noted (Estradiol - 17 BETA) scale is less than 150 pmol/L - I have no idea what test that really is.. Canadian.. I converted it to 18 for the sake of the american scale

[hammerheart]

I added above
I never understood the timing of the AI dose before.. I didn't realize it would act to fast.
the E2 test is noted (Estradiol - 17 BETA) scale is less than 150 pmol/L - I have no idea what test that really is.. Canadian.. I converted it to 18 for the sake of the american scale

Test C or E peaks between 24-48 hours.

17-beta-estradiol is another name for E2. What we wanted to know is the assay method. If it wasn't specified, then it's standard E2 test.

Problem with standard assay is poor sensitivity, ie unreliable readings for low concentrations of the hormone in the blood. For women this isn't an issue (unless their being treated with an AI for cancer) but for us men we need a more specific test, and that would be the sensitive estradiol test.

As a rule of thumb, the standard assay will overestimate E2. If your reading was 18 pg/ml, which is already low anyway, then likely your E2 was very low at the time.