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Thread: Last thyroid bw is back.

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    hammerheart's Avatar
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    Last thyroid bw is back (updated 9/12/2016)

    No sex hormones this time, I planned them for later this summer.

    Got checked CBC, thyroid, lipids, Iron, and cortisol.

    Bumped LT4 dosage from 125 to 137 since last reading (April).

    TSH 0.8 -> 2.02

    FT4 1.04 -> 0.98 ng/dl

    FT3 3.00 -> 3.14 pg/ml.


    These values are still far away from the optimal ones I got last year (1.42 FT4, 3.5 FT4). I'm not sure what's happening, I might check for total T4 next time to have an idea, thyroid output should be suppressed at current dosage.


    Cortisol is adequate at 15 mcg/dl (4-22).


    Cholesterol is borderline at 220, HDL is 50. Lab missed tryglicerides (which I ordered). Too much test/AI?


    Iron status is lowish.

    Serum Iron - 60 mcg/dl

    Ferritin - 33 ng/ml


    Ferritin was over 100 last year. No matter supplemental Iron and diet high in Fe too it got lower.


    Note that I got a benign, genetic inherited disorder know as the thalassemia trait - red blood cells are smaller, but higher in number.

    Last thyroid bw is back.-img_20160706_0001.jpgLast thyroid bw is back.-img_20160706_0002.jpgLast thyroid bw is back.-img_20160706_0003.jpg
    Last edited by hammerheart; 09-12-2016 at 02:19 AM.

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    IncreaseMyT is offline Associate Member
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    Whats your current protocol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IncreaseMyT View Post
    Whats your current protocol?
    100mg Test E every four days; ana .25 EOD; HCG 250IU EOD.

    I will taper down test to 75mg bi-weekly, and try to use less AI as possible. Anyway, now that I remember I had that very same cholesterol before any treatment. I must figure what's wrong with thyroid, my concern is I could not be absorbing levothyroxine optimally.

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    You ever tested low for B12? I know it sounds simple but can be connected to thyroid issues and iron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IncreaseMyT View Post
    You ever tested low for B12? I know it sounds simple but can be connected to thyroid issues and iron.
    Cobalamin status was at the high end of range (700) last year. Never tested for folates. I'll give homocysteine a check later this year.

    One simple explaination would be low stomach acid, I eat a lot of red meat but have an hard time digesting it. It's needed for LT4 absorption too.
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    Conditions that interfere with food absorption, such celiac or Crohn’s disease, can cause B12 trouble. So can the use of commonly prescribed heartburn drugs, which reduce acid production in the stomach (acid is needed to absorb vitamin B12). The condition is more likely to occur in older people due to the cutback in stomach acid production that often occurs with aging.
    Vitamin B12 deficiency can be sneaky, harmful - Harvard Health Blog - Harvard Health Publications

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    By chance do you take Vit C with your Elemental Iron?
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    I'm young, I know. Doctors would often tell me that.

    Low t also is typically associated with aging. I got it at 24. Thyroid issues too are unusual for young adult male. If you look at my thyroid ultrasound, it's so badly damaged from thyroidits that very little healthy tissue is left. That means it was going on already from at least a decade.

    So yes, I feel low stomach acid could be a possibility, even at my young age.


    I was taking a lot of methylB12 btw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    By chance do you take Vit C with your Elemental Iron?
    I take moderate doses throughout the day, yes. Also a lot from diet.

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    IncreaseMyT is offline Associate Member
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    I am not a fan of oral b12 supplementation. The problem is we don't absorb it.

    Not sure thats your issue just throwing it out there. Also have to be careful with b supplements because it will increase HCT as well.

    Since your low Iron, I am curious to know if b12 injections would help you.

    Just a thought and hope it works out for you.

    40% of hypothyroid patients are low in b12.

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    MethylB12 is better absorbed than standard cobalamin... anyway, if b12 levels came out at the high end of range I guess that isn't the problem.

    I also got chronic paraesthesias in hands/feet, which is suggestive, but...
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    Yes I know the difference for sure. Still from our experience, oral sups just don't raise levels, according to follow up labs. Let me know how it works out please I am curious.

    Hope it helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    MethylB12 is better absorbed than standard cobalamin...
    Methyl form works very well for me and yes, is backed up by BW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Methyl form works very well for me and yes, is backed up by BW.
    What do you think it might be affecting HDL cholesterol? Low thyroid might lead to high LDL and total cholesterol but shouldn't lower HDL.

    I already take krill and fish oil along the day.
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    I got some liquid T3 from the pharmacy today, it's provided by the national healthcare system so I get it for free.

    It's going to be harsh... I've tried it in the past and gave me ugly attention deficit throughout the day, I guess it will take a couple weeks to feel better on it (due to brain rewiring) and much more to get stabilized, but it needs to get done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    What do you think it might be affecting HDL cholesterol? Low thyroid might lead to high LDL and total cholesterol but shouldn't lower HDL.

    I already take krill and fish oil along the day.
    Well high HDL is what keeps LDL down, so I imagine there is some correlation the other way as well.

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    Yep that would make sense. I will re-test in a couple of months, let's see if T3 can do the magic. I've refrain from it in the past also because it can upregulate SHBG which used to be high (nebido never managed to kick it down) but with TE got substantially lower.

    Besides... since switching to 75mg bi-weekly I'm experiencing weird downsides. Morning wood is gone, and beard growth has slowed down.

    Not really sure what's is happening. Perhaps less DHT conversion?
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    I am not a fan of bi-weekly. What your describing is typical when people switch.

    Not sure exactly why haven't been able to pinpoint it yet. It doesn't always happen either sometimes there are exceptions form what I have seen.
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    Well I think I'm going back, if protocol is ineffective introducing T3 will make matters worse.
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    I'm currently at 20mcg/die divided 6am/pm, the stimulating effect is kinda mild but I can notice I'm finally sweating like a normal person (it's very HOT outside).

    Decreased sweating was one of the long-standing hypothyroid symptoms I had, along many others. Lack of hunger is another one, but still no increase in appetite at this point.
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    Upped T3 dose to 50mcg of turkish Tiromel. The magic lasted a few days then it's gone, although normal sweating was retained. Still, no hunger.

    Haven't checked T/E2/SHBG for quite a while. Will run bloods this week, currently on 75mcg TE biweekly, no AI. No noticeable estro sides.

    They will comprise: CBC, tT, E2, SHBG, PRL, Thyroid panel, Lipids, Liver function, Iron, Folate, B12, homocysteine.

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    Mr.BB's Avatar
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    Tried some T3 a few weeks ago, only lasted 6 days, had to stop, thought I was dying lol.
    Funny that im pretty tolerant to sex hormones, but guess not to thyroid ones.

    Have you ever tested DHT?

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    No, never. It's a pricey test and I'm not sure if it's worth checking, but I'm curious to see where it lands at, will check if the lab provides it.

    Thyroid hormones are pretty funny sh*t. I couldn't even stand low dose T4 without test, but now that I'm on TE its like candy, never too much.

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    Well it wasn't that pricey, 20 euros only. Had to drop homocysteine due to unavailability, will have together with B9/B12 from another lab later.

    Venous blood was unusually dark in colour this time, almost blackish. Flowed easily though.

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    Thats not bad.

    The first lab I tested it here was 49€... of course then I shopped around, think its about 20 or 25€ on my normal lab now. Still more expensive than rest of tests.
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    Was checking bw invoice. SHBG and PSA is also expensive in this lab:




    Last thyroid bw is back.-bw.jpg
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    That's as cheap as my lab. Only PSA is 15 and SHBG 18. The owner also is a cool guy and always applies a discount, since I'm a good customer.

    Results should be due to monday..

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    Ok guise got the results back... interesting stuff this time.


    -------------------------------------------------------

    CBC is the same as july - just great, HCT at 45%

    total T >1350 ng/dl, above assay - BAD

    17-beta-oestradiol (non sensitive) - 56.21 pg/ml - Should be great.

    SHBG 45.7 - too high, culprit is T3 I think

    Dihydrotestosterone - 78 ng/dl - in range, ok

    PRL - 54 ng/ml !!!! - Seriously? Where do that come from?? No wonder my nipples are weeping! Sex drive is kill.

    Serum Iron still low at 57 mcg/dl - took 25mg Iron from bysglicinate for two months :/

    Colesterol HDL 60, LDL-C 80, total 148, Try 30 - Great, the AI raised total to 230 back in July

    TSH - 0.00 - suppressed; too much T3

    FT4 - 0.93 - normal

    FT3 - 4.33 - high, need to lower dosages



    Last thyroid bw is back.-img_20160912_0004.jpgLast thyroid bw is back.-img_20160912_0005.jpgLast thyroid bw is back.-img_20160912_0006.jpgLast thyroid bw is back.-img_20160912_0007.jpg



    -----------------------------------------------------


    Not sure what is going on - how come E2 is normal with Test that high and no AI? How do I resolve this? If I lower test within range, the oestradiol could also sink. Sure free t could be poor from high SHBG, but still makes me perplexed. Any advice on this?

    What could have raised the PRL? That's the level you get on antipsychotics. Maybe I'm right on the speculations about low DA? That's also excludes any trial of 19-nors for the moment.
    Last edited by hammerheart; 09-12-2016 at 03:03 AM.
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    Im having small breakfast after drawing blood heheh

    Are you on any supplement or drug that could raise prolactin?? Its not such a small raise

    What ranges you have on dht and e2?

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    Supplements... none that I could think of. Yes it's indeed a significant elevation. One year ago was at 15.

    What I'm taking is..

    B-complex

    Zinc Citrate 7.5mg

    Selenium 200mcg

    Krill plus fish oil

    Iron bysglicinate 25mg

    Vitamin c

    NAC 750mg

    Choline 500mg


    Nothing special.



    Lab provided ranges are 7-43 pg/ml for E2 and 40-100 ng/dl for DHT.
    Last edited by hammerheart; 09-12-2016 at 02:46 AM.

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    OK, DHT is ng/dl, didnt see that. On the upper side, it would be interesting to see if it lowers when you get T in range.

    E2 is elevated, but is normal as T is also elevated. As you know, enanthate is dependent on injection protocol. What are you aiming for?

    As for supplements, I take most of them too, dont see any explanation... Is your Testosterone pharma or UGL?

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    TE is from Balkan. I don't see E2 that elevated since it's immunoassay. Was aiming to dose test according to E2, really.

    Whatever I do, I need to lower SHGB and thyroid first or it could become a problem, do you agree?

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    Agree on the thyroid, zero TSH lol.

    SHBG is not that high IMO, will it not lower once you lower thyroid?

    I think testosterone its something you can control a lot better, as its what you are injecting. Controlling it through e2 values might not be so easy, a lot of variables can influence e2. From my experience (ok there was AI in the mix as well) e2 values are not very consistent, what I mean is, if I do the same protocol I can get different 2 values for e2.

    So in my opinion, I would lower testosterone (and the thyroid) and try to find out what's raising the prolactin.

    EDIT: UGL is not helpfull either
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    It's just a supposition.... do you guys on cycle get SHBG that high while on T3? I'm only at 50 mcg/die. High test should dial it down, must be something physiological. On exemestane was less than 30 ( E2 33 pg/ml).

    What's funny about PRL is that being hyperthyroid should lower it. Bizzaro inversion?

    Adding back SELEGILINE to daily regimen.
    Last edited by hammerheart; 09-12-2016 at 04:09 AM.
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    I may not be on point with what I have to say, but consider this anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Methyl form works very well for me and yes, is backed up by BW.
    agreed, multiple times, I only took 1000mcg ED/EOD methylb12 sublingual and my B12 were over the limit by ~10% , so it works providing its good quality brand and taken properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    Agree on the thyroid, zero TSH lol.

    SHBG is not that high IMO, will it not lower once you lower thyroid?

    I think testosterone its something you can control a lot better, as its what you are injecting. Controlling it through e2 values might not be so easy, a lot of variables can influence e2. From my experience (ok there was AI in the mix as well) e2 values are not very consistent, what I mean is, if I do the same protocol I can get different 2 values for e2.

    So in my opinion, I would lower testosterone (and the thyroid) and try to find out what's raising the prolactin.

    EDIT: UGL is not helpfull either
    I had my T3 elevated once started TRT alone, and my prolactin rose higher also because it usually goes hand in hand with excess E2. E2 doesnt have to be too much outside the higher limit but it will still drive prolactin up. If E2 were mid-range or low for a while and prolactin came in still high/higher than upper norm range, there could be other things going on. Possibly T3 to blame or some prolactinomias issue etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    It's just a supposition.... do you guys on cycle get SHBG that high while on T3? I'm only at 50 mcg/die. High test should dial it down, must be something physiological. On exemestane was less than 30 ( E2 33 pg/ml).

    What's funny about PRL is that being hyperthyroid should lower it. Bizzaro inversion?

    Adding back SELEGILINE to daily regimen.

    I think youre having good (normal-high) E2 reading while on high T reading because that was only your total-T, and high SHBG is the one to thank you dont have E2 sides yet. I think if at this range your SHGB would be cut in half or even to lower reading than half of what you have, you may have rapid E2 conversion issues because you would automatically have more free-T curculating your system.

    Have you got Free-T reading on this also (or albumin reading?)

    Like I said, I may be well off with my estimations and speculations, take it from me for what it cost you, I am just doing some Enstein-science here
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneMuscle View Post
    I think youre having good (normal-high) E2 reading while on high T reading because that was only your total-T, and high SHBG is the one to thank you dont have E2 sides yet. I think if at this range your SHGB would be cut in half or even to lower reading than half of what you have, you may have rapid E2 conversion issues because you would automatically have more free-T curculating your system.

    Have you got Free-T reading on this also (or albumin reading?)

    Like I said, I may be well off with my estimations and speculations, take it from me for what it cost you, I am just doing some Enstein-science here
    Nope. Albumin was about 4.5 in May, but without knowing where total T lands at, it's impossible to calculate free T.

    Your thinking is correct. If SHBG was down to 20 free test (and DHT too) would be more elevated and the rate of aromatization higher.

    It's also possible that elevated E2 since coming off AI stimulated SHBG first, then lower free T returned estradiol to normal values.

    Not really sure of the impact of T3 on SHBG... having test that high should prevent it from rising, I hope vets can shed some light on this.


    I doubt my microadenoma started secreting prolactin at some random point, however if it grows enough it can compress the pituitary stalk (a micro-vessel that connect to the hypothalamus) and impair DA infusion from there, thus disinhibiting PRL release.

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    besides, the only major problem with UGL test I see is a potential inconsistency in dosing which ALWAYS will mess you up when dialling in or having yourself dialled in, every other amp/vial may be over/under dosed meaning you will continuously need to re-adjust your AI to have stable levels of hormones over and over again. Its fine if its just few % deviation between batches of UGL here and there, there fore you gotta have good supplier of UGL brand that for the most part stays consistent with threir dosing. its dirty business but sometimes its the only way around, UGL way.

    I would say if UGL is the only way - buy few more UGL vials of the exact same batch if planned long term so there is least deviation to possibly none at all, if all were from the same batch and dosed very close to one another mg/ml so the dialing in part is done only once or so and you keep going stable. of course I am not mentioning catching some mercury/lead poisoning or contracting other anomaly or even HIV/AIDS/Cancer(if thats of course possible) , god knows what can happen in UGL factory.

    However, I do believe some UGL's will strive to do their best to come as close as pharmaceutical grade and sterility as possible , but there always be some others who will never care about what they sell, so long they just sell it, that's where concern of using UGL's comes in. its a Russian-roulette not only with the under/over dosing, but many other factors doing UGL. (I got checked myself for all these recently, I am ok so far, but will switch to pharma in short future)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    Nope. Albumin was about 4.5 in May, but without knowing where total T lands at, it's impossible to calculate free T.

    Your thinking is correct. If SHBG was down to 20 free test (and DHT too) would be more elevated and the rate of aromatization higher.

    It's also possible that elevated E2 since coming off AI stimulated SHBG first, then lower free T returned estradiol to normal values.

    Not really sure of the impact of T3 on SHBG... having test that high should prevent it from rising, I hope vets can shed some light on this.


    I doubt my microadenoma started secreting prolactin at some random point, however if it grows enough it can compress the pituitary stalk (a micro-vessel that connect to the hypothalamus) and impair DA infusion from there, thus disinhibiting PRL release.
    also, coming off of T3/T4 I know it takes few weeks to bounce back for your body, unless that is you taper off thyroid will still be supressed for a while and it will slowly restart again if all is ok

    was that the reading of 4.9 of your FT3 while on this mentioned dose of T3?

    I take no T3 and my came in at FT3 6.9 reading. pre-cycle was ~6.3 (but that was Total T3 so it may not count here at all) if recall right

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneMuscle View Post
    also, coming off of T3/T4 I know it takes few weeks to bounce back for your body, unless that is you taper off thyroid will still be supressed for a while and it will slowly restart again if all is ok

    was that the reading of 4.9 of your FT3 while on this mentioned dose of T3?

    I take no T3 and my came in at FT3 6.9 reading. pre-cycle was ~6.3 (but that was Total T3 so it may not count here at all) if recall right
    Your is expressed in molar concentration, mine in pg/ml. I also take an hefty dose of T4 (150mcg) and that's what I want to taper instead of T3.

    My levels were 3.00 pg/ml before Tiromel. Now they are at 4.4, only 10% higher than yours.
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    Thyroid hormones are known to increase SHBG by increasing expression of the transcription factor, NF4alpha. On the other hand, sugars and high-glycemic foods are known to decrease hepatic SHBG. They do this because sugar consumption promotes hepatic lipogenesis (fat production) which reduces the availability of NF4alpha. Hence, two important steps we can take to maintain healthful systemic SHBG levels are reduce intake of high-glycemic foods, and monitor thyroid function to ensure optimal thyroid hormone levels.
    So, maybe this^^^ answers SHBG. Your level of SHBG is fine, high SHBG (or elevated) is only a problem when is "eating" too much sex hormones, which is clearly not the case.

    For the prolactin I only see the microadenoma you just mentioned.
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