5 weeks in on TRT, low BF%, sore nipple... how about AI?

[InternalFire]

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[IncreaseMyT]

My nipples always get more sensitive on testosterone . The truth is gyno is VERY rare at dosages under 200.

The people that may have problems with gyno at this dosage usually are the ones that got gyno long before taking testosterone.

Gyno hurts, from what I hear I have never had it, it would be painful. Like if the bar came down on your chest and it actually hurt, to the point you might let out a whimper, thats gyno.

Its possible you need to titrate, just not sure you have gyno.

Hope this helps.

[kelkel]

Bloodwork!

[InternalFire]

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[IncreaseMyT]

I personally, with the approval from your doc of course , wouldn't be opposed to seeing you try a small amount of anastrozole. Like 0.25-0.5mg day of shot and then see if that helps symptoms. Then get a blood test.

If you have symptoms nothing wrong with a short trial to learn how you react to anastrozole IMHO.

Truth is doesn't matter what we say, guys are gonna try AI's. They read, see something and they get their mind set on it.

Just my 2 cents.

PS I am not a fan of exemestane, there is no reason to take anything stronger than anastrozole.

[IncreaseMyT]

To be honest this is why I do not like twice per week schedules, they saturate and its hard to titrate ancillaries.

I like every 7 day or optimally 100mg every 5 days, the 5 day is just hard to keep track off.

Some guys I know set google reminders

[InternalFire]

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[kelkel]

To be honest this is why I do not like twice per week schedules, they saturate and its hard to titrate ancillaries.

I like every 7 day or optimally 100mg every 5 days, the 5 day is just hard to keep track off.

Some guys I know set google reminders

Not sure what you mean by "hard to titrate ancillaries?" Stable levels (2 x week) and less fluctuation would seem to make titrations easier as opposed to basing adjustments possible only at a trough level, assuming most are drawing then. What's your thought process here IMT?

No problem with 5 day protocols. Not a fan of 7 though.

[IncreaseMyT]

Well if someone has estrogen symptoms I personally think its better to implement a small amount of anastrozole before testing. Having E symptoms and getting a lab test with high E2 doesn't help much. We already knew that.

So if you take a small dose and symptoms get better, or gone altogether, now you can get labs and use them to fine tune. Now we are getting info we didn't already know. Good labs are better than bad labs they give you something to shoot for.

Exemestane is somewhat stronger the anastrozole, not by much but it can penetrate dense lipid cells better than anastrozole, stopping conversion in new places. Fermara is the strongest.

I am not sure whether suicidal AI is better or worse for you. The point is if you don't need something that strong it doesn't matter. No such thing as rebound and if there is its positive.

I know it sounds great on paper, 2 times per week will keep them from swinging as much. But I think we may need some swing. Just not something crazy like a 10 week injection schedule of course.

A lot of guys do better this way. It is also easier to dose your AI just one time when it is needed, near the peak. Thats when E2 is made, not on the way down. Hope that makes sense.

I guess its possible some type of receptor affinity is related to what we see clinically, that increasing T levels then letting them fall a bit lets the receptors up reg a little. To be honest I have no idea when it gets that deep. I just know what I see.

Also labs are going to come in higher in the trough on 100mg 2 times per than they will on 200 mg per week. Or 150 75 however you slice it.

Then there are some guys that swear by that injection schedule, 2 times a week. Let me be clear I am never opposed to a way of timing your schedule within reason, I have been doing this long enough to know it boils down to what works best for you. Getting there is a process of elimination and having someone help you through that can be invaluable.

I have had many guys do twice a week for a year and are now back on once every 5 day or 7 day and feel better. I wish I had the answer. Some stick with twice a week for good.

The most successful program I have seen though is the 5 day, with once per 5 day HCG dosing and once per 5 day anastrozole dosing. If need just 0.25mg should do it with 100mg of T.

Hope this makes sense its been a long day

[kelkel]

It does. Wanted to hear your logic. Some good points there IMT. I knew where you were heading when I asked the question but felt it was important for the guys to hear you express it.

kel

[IncreaseMyT]

For sure kel. I even set up our kits now so that they come with a drawing syringe and then a separate 27 gauge 1.25 inch needle so you can go sub c or IM, and we put enough so clients can break it up if they would like and do 2x per week

We are open to any protocol ideas, you have to start somewhere.

[macmathews]

Well if someone has estrogen symptoms I personally think its better to implement a small amount of anastrozole before testing. Having E symptoms and getting a lab test with high E2 doesn't help much. We already knew that.

So if you take a small dose and symptoms get better, or gone altogether, now you can get labs and use them to fine tune. Now we are getting info we didn't already know. Good labs are better than bad labs they give you something to shoot for.

Exemestane is somewhat stronger the anastrozole, not by much but it can penetrate dense lipid cells better than anastrozole, stopping conversion in new places. Fermara is the strongest.

I am not sure whether suicidal AI is better or worse for you. The point is if you don't need something that strong it doesn't matter. No such thing as rebound and if there is its positive.

I know it sounds great on paper, 2 times per week will keep them from swinging as much. But I think we may need some swing. Just not something crazy like a 10 week injection schedule of course.

A lot of guys do better this way. It is also easier to dose your AI just one time when it is needed, near the peak. Thats when E2 is made, not on the way down. Hope that makes sense.

I guess its possible some type of receptor affinity is related to what we see clinically, that increasing T levels then letting them fall a bit lets the receptors up reg a little. To be honest I have no idea when it gets that deep. I just know what I see.

Also labs are going to come in higher in the trough on 100mg 2 times per than they will on 200 mg per week. Or 150 75 however you slice it.

Then there are some guys that swear by that injection schedule, 2 times a week. Let me be clear I am never opposed to a way of timing your schedule within reason, I have been doing this long enough to know it boils down to what works best for you. Getting there is a process of elimination and having someone help you through that can be invaluable.

I have had many guys do twice a week for a year and are now back on once every 5 day or 7 day and feel better. I wish I had the answer. Some stick with twice a week for good.

The most successful program I have seen though is the 5 day, with once per 5 day HCG dosing and once per 5 day anastrozole dosing. If need just 0.25mg should do it with 100mg of T.

Hope this makes sense its been a long day

that cetainly helped with my lizard brain. !

[InternalFire]

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[NACH3]

Also, considering if I should add Tamoxifen (Nolvadex ) as per thread described here because Im very self aware and I can definatelly see changes taking place in my chest tissue and Im one leg in on this idea here:U



Source: Stop Using Aromatase Inhibitors to Reverse gynecomastia! SERM's Only!

Your first line of defense against high E2 etc is your AI dosing - not SERMs... However, you could run 10mgs of tamoxifen(on top of your AI) from keeping estrogen binding to your breast tissue...

I agree w/IMT that anastrozole should be used... Stane I've always thought was weaker but is a 'suicidal AI' rendering the aromatase enzyme useless once binded(sounds great on paper and is great on cycle for some.. I've used Dex for the get go...

I'd still say try your AI dosing either shot day or day after shot...

[InternalFire]

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[hammerheart]

Your first line of defense against high E2 etc is your AI dosing - not SERMs... However, you could run 10mgs of tamoxifen (on top of your AI) from keeping estrogen binding to your breast tissue...

I agree w/IMT that anastrozole should be used... Stane I've always thought was weaker but is a 'suicidal AI' rendering the aromatase enzyme useless once binded(sounds great on paper and is great on cycle for some.. I've used Dex for the get go...

I'd still say try your AI dosing either shot day or day after shot...

Exemestane is also lipophylic, that means absorption is increased with fat meals (according to a study up to 50-60%), however the molecule will also display greater permeability at the blood-brain-barrier, that might exasperate/trigger the "psychological" sides of low E2.

[InternalFire]

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[NACH3]

Exemestane is also lipophylic, that means absorption is increased with fat meals (according to a study up to 50-60%), however the molecule will also display greater permeability at the blood-brain-barrier, that might exasperate/trigger the "psychological" sides of low E2.

Interesting Bizz... I like how you 'speculate' usually on point lol

[NACH3]

Aromasin - Exemestane, is a suicidal AI, and Anastrozole - Arimidex , is not, which works in a similar ways as SERM does only by a different pathways inhibiting estrogen conversion at its source( to my understanding).

So, if I get that right, I should run 0.25mg Arimidex once a week or twice a week each pinning day? My pin days are Sunday (evening) and Thursdays (morning) 84h apart between pins
I know its advised to dose AI in the mornings and preferably with food to avoid night sleeping problems

and 10mg nolvadex a week or also each pining day, every day, every other day or how else?

I want to be on a safer side but also be preventative enough in case sides are creeping in slowly on me.

Also, I am now considering switching to only subQ pining to benefit somehow from more steady delivery of the compounds trough fatty tissue, thoughts on this?

Tbh I don't think you'll need Nolva but it may be a good idea while awaiting your labs and to ease your mind a bit... 10mgs ed if you were to take it - you could also frontload the nolva @ 20mgs ed for the first wk then cut it back...

[InternalFire]

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[NACH3]

alright, what about AI? I had my mind almost glued on Aromasin 12.5mg E4D since Im low BF%, lightweight, thus should not aromatise much but I still do... half life is short, dosing would be low, and body should slowly rebuild aromatise enzymes before 4th day comes, and so I would go like that... that was my conclusion

Otherwise Arimidex would prevent conversion from T to E, Nolva prevent binding to receptors in the breast tissue, but how about water retention? which would help dry out better because as I read and think I seem bloated for these past weeks, where it be all these carbs, or higher E sides, I find hard to remove my ring, clenching fist makes it feel swollen, and when smiling I do feel fuller in my face.

This is why IMT is saying to use anastrozole as well(it can dry you out great but that sounds more like on cycle not TRT)... Stane being a much shorter active life should actually be taken on an ed schedule(split 12hrs apart and taken with fat) - I'm low BF(10-12%) and still aromatize much more than most at my BF levels...

[InternalFire]

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[IncreaseMyT]

Well the problem we run into is these meds we are using are intended for females who have breast cancer. So when they made the formulations the strength was based on what they would prescribe to them.

This is why anastrozole comes in 1mg tablets, because the dosing for a female with breast cancer is 1-10mg per day.

Since we have MUCH smaller amounts of estradiol we need much smaller amounts, and there are not a lot of applications out there that match our dosing schedules. (not counting liquid formulations)

This is why we are such big fans of the 0.25mg anastrozole rapid dissolve tablets that melt under your tongue our pharmacy offers. One to two of these per week should be plenty for TRT doses.

There is no need to worry about the half-life of AI's. There is no need to have a consistent amount in your bloodstream, or to consistently suppress aroma. Remember when we do a T injection levels climb almost immediately. Regardless of ester, even long acting Nebido, levels will be within 10% of peak within 48 hours.

So we are only trying to suppress over aroma, we need some aroma, we need estradiol. As a matter of fact, like body builders have suspected for a very long time, clinical research is starting to reveal that E2 is just as important if not more important to things like building muscle and strengthening your bones.

So we only need to suppress aroma when TT levels are at or near peak. When they are falling there is no need.

I don't think it matters much if you use anastrozole or exem. I am just noting that anastrozole is stronger than we will ever need so there is no reason to get anything stronger. Using something stronger just means we have a higher chance of burying our E2.

I would say the number of men who get on TRT and crush their E2 levels is above 70%. I have to beg them not to take anastrozole. Then they read some thread, think they have gyno and now they are taking 2mg a week. Which is insane.

When on T your going to get some water retention, it is unavoidable. Its actually what makes us stronger, and cushions our joints so its not all bad.

The difference between suicidal and non suicidal is simple. Suicidal AI's like Exem attach themselves to the aromatase enzyme permanently binding so that enzyme cannot do anything and it dies.

With non suicidal AI's they attach to aroma temporarily, so that aroma can break away and go convert some T to E before it dies.

Hope this ramble makes sense we have been swamped all week working morning to night

[InternalFire]

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[hammerheart]

Now I am really wondering what to do, I dont mind which I take, as long as it is easier to manage and I find alot users report E4D 12.5mg of aromasin to be doing well on TRT ...

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...jc.2003-031279

Maximal suppression of estradiol (62 ± 14%) was observed 12 h after a single 25-mg dose of exemestane. Estradiol remained suppressed by 58 ± 21% at 24 h and returned to baseline 3–6 d after treatment

[InternalFire]

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[InternalFire]

Pill cutters probably only good for cutting horse-pills like those found in ANIMAL-PAK and such... gonna shop for exacto-knife tomorrow, all my pill cutter did was rolled out my Aromasin tab out of place during 3 failed attempts and scraped off sugar coating...



Rammed this "tic-tac" pill to the wooden chopping board and went trough it pretty damn straight with greens knife, now exacto would have done surgery like slice from the get go

[InternalFire]

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[kelkel]

Regardless of ester, even long acting Nebido, levels will be within 10% of peak within 48 hours.

Usually even closer to 24 hrs.

Nice rant, btw.

[InternalFire]

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[macmathews]

Well the problem we run into is these meds we are using are intended for females who have breast cancer. So when they made the formulations the strength was based on what they would prescribe to them.

This is why anastrozole comes in 1mg tablets, because the dosing for a female with breast cancer is 1-10mg per day.

Since we have MUCH smaller amounts of estradiol we need much smaller amounts, and there are not a lot of applications out there that match our dosing schedules. (not counting liquid formulations)

This is why we are such big fans of the 0.25mg anastrozole rapid dissolve tablets that melt under your tongue our pharmacy offers. One to two of these per week should be plenty for TRT doses.

There is no need to worry about the half-life of AI's. There is no need to have a consistent amount in your bloodstream, or to consistently suppress aroma. Remember when we do a T injection levels climb almost immediately. Regardless of ester, even long acting Nebido, levels will be within 10% of peak within 48 hours.

So we are only trying to suppress over aroma, we need some aroma, we need estradiol. As a matter of fact, like body builders have suspected for a very long time, clinical research is starting to reveal that E2 is just as important if not more important to things like building muscle and strengthening your bones.

So we only need to suppress aroma when TT levels are at or near peak. When they are falling there is no need.

I don't think it matters much if you use anastrozole or exem. I am just noting that anastrozole is stronger than we will ever need so there is no reason to get anything stronger. Using something stronger just means we have a higher chance of burying our E2.

I would say the number of men who get on TRT and crush their E2 levels is above 70%. I have to beg them not to take anastrozole. Then they read some thread, think they have gyno and now they are taking 2mg a week. Which is insane.

When on T your going to get some water retention, it is unavoidable. Its actually what makes us stronger, and cushions our joints so its not all bad.

The difference between suicidal and non suicidal is simple. Suicidal AI's like Exem attach themselves to the aromatase enzyme permanently binding so that enzyme cannot do anything and it dies.

With non suicidal AI's they attach to aroma temporarily, so that aroma can break away and go convert some T to E before it dies.

Hope this ramble makes sense we have been swamped all week working morning to night

I'm glad you stated this..
I didn't understand this and when on Testosterone (120mg wk) I was taking 3/4MG of liquid adex weekly.. But dosed evenly everyday.. My nonsensitive estradiol came back at 18.. My joints hurt so much I didn't dare do bicep curls.. Obviously I didn't understand half life and/or how estrogen rises

Mac

[hammerheart]

I'm glad you stated this..
I didn't understand this and when on Testosterone (120mg wk) I was taking 3/4MG of liquid adex weekly.. But dosed evenly everyday.. My nonsensitive estradiol came back at 18.. My joints hurt so much I didn't dare do bicep curls.. Obviously I didn't understand half life and/or how estrogen rises

Mac

It's curious how joint pain is associated with AI use rather than spontaneous low E2.

I have been that low but never experienced joint pain, though other obvious low E2 symptoms were all there.

[macmathews]

It's curious how joint pain is associated with AI use rather than spontaneous low E2.

I have been that low but never experienced joint pain, though other obvious low E2 symptoms were all there.

Never thought of that..
I made the decision of doing this on my own because my erection quality was short lived and nobody other than me seemed to give a shit.
I had no idea why I felt SO tired depressed and foggy headed.. It only came to light when my elbows and hands hurt when I even looked at a bar.

If/ when I decide to do TRT again.. an AI will be followed way more closely if needed
Currently looking at my wife more like a gorgeous car rather than a piece of Ass..

Mac

[kelkel]

it will come out weird but, I gotta say it, the further I read kelkel's posts I see the pattern of shrinking expression of words, if this continues to follow, soon we shall see kelkel answer in one word sentences and later it will go to a half word, a few letters, a single sound symbol, punctuation, and then his mentality will collapse on itself creating supernova and opening a massive black hole sucking in the entirety of the forum in to itself... gonna hang around to observe

I agree, they have been rather short. Couple reasons: We've developed a membership base with some very bright guys here who are very active and on-point with their posts thus allowing me to post less. My input is simply not needed as much. It's also summer and it's hard to post from my Harley....

[Mr.BB]

It's also summer and it's hard to post from my Harley....

[InternalFire]

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