Testosterone Supplementation instead of Replacement - Experiment

[dikow]

I think the key to T supplementation is to administer daily a micro dose that is smaller than what your body would produce naturally. I will do this experiment with a T Cream 50mg/mL , using only 0.1ml a day (5mg of T daily).

However, 5mg is still higher than my natural production, but with the cream the absorption rate is around 10%, so only 0.5mg of T would be going to my system daily. I will start the experiment with this very low dose and up the dose every 3 months, to assess any progress in terms of T supplementation instead of the traditional replacement.

Any thoughts/comments/warnings on this approach bros? Please let me know before I start the experiment.

I hope that with T micro dosing I can get more benefits than those T Boosters!

[dikow]

You rally need to start a new thread. You can't supplement test. Whatever you out in your body will know and just reduce your endogenous production to match what it was before. There no point unless your going to do enough to make your levels higher then your natty level. It's just the way it works

New thread now.

I understand your point regarding the shut down, but I don't think that it's that black&white in terms of pituitary sensitivity. I think there are shades of gray in between. Are there any studies that did a similar experiment?

[EDCG19]

You're still going to decrease your natural production. Not total shutdown but adding in androgens will shut down or slow down your normal T production.. you also mentioned upping the dose overtime. This will lead to shut down and hormone changes since you're upping the dose after a few months..

Now I have to ask what's your reason for trying this? How old are you?

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

[kelkel]

Hmmm. I guess none of the doctors, scientists, researchers in product development ever thought of this. Not to mention how long gels and creams have been is use by the general population.

[dikow]

Hmmm. I guess none of the doctors, scientists, researchers in product development ever thought of this. Not to mention how long gels and creams have been is use by the general population.

I suppose you're being ironic but that's fine. Could you point one study that tried this approach? Really could not find it.

[dikow]

You're still going to decrease your natural production. Not total shutdown but adding in androgens will shut down or slow down your normal T production.. you also mentioned upping the dose overtime. This will lead to shut down and hormone changes since you're upping the dose after a few months..

Now I have to ask what's your reason for trying this? How old are you?

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

But how about the effect of exogenous estrogen that we get from the environment, such as xenoestrogens? This needs to be factored in the pituitary shut down as well, right?

I would up the dose but still lower than my natural production (after 3 months: from 0.1ml to 0.2ml of cream = from 5mg to 10mg of T daily). The absorption is 10%, so only 1mg would be going to my system, still lower than my natural production, which I hypothesize is around 2-3mg daily.

I have low T (350 ng/dL - range 300-1200 ng/dL), so the purpose is for longevity and well-being. I am 25 years old... I think I have good bodybuilding genetics besides having low T (18 inch arms - natural, never used gear or test), so I would hope this little supplementation would do some good to me. I used T Boosters such as tribulus that also helped too, but my estrogen skyrocketed.

[kelkel]

I suppose you're being ironic but that's fine. Could you point one study that tried this approach? Really could not find it.

Only for post menopausal women, to be honest. And that's not sarcasm. You're not reinventing the wheel here. I can't think of any doses, mg's, protocols etc that haven't been tried to the best of my knowledge. There are many men who swear by very small daily SQ testosterone dosing as well. If you legitimately need TRT you should see a doctor and investigate why.

You mentioned test boosters, of which most all are ridiculous. If this is only in effort to bump up your T levels and not a medical need, you're wasting your time. Eventually suppression will occur, even if only mild.

[dikow]

Only for post menopausal women, to be honest. And that's not sarcasm. You're not reinventing the wheel here. I can't think of any doses, mg's, protocols etc that haven't been tried to the best of my knowledge. There are many men who swear by very small daily SQ testosterone dosing as well. If you legitimately need TRT you should see a doctor and investigate why.

You mentioned test boosters, of which most all are ridiculous. If this is only in effort to bump up your T levels and not a medical need, you're wasting your time. Eventually suppression will occur, even if only mild.

If you can find the women study please post it here... But I am curious about these men you mention that micro dose with SQ T? All of them failed to get any benefits and got shut down?

I liked one of the T Boosters I tried (Horny goat weed and Tribulus were part of the mix). It raised my T to 420ng/dL but my estrogen, which used to be low, skyrocketed. So I stopped using temporarily.

I want the supplementation because I have symptoms of low T such as fatigue etc. But I don't want to rely on weekly TRT injections for rest of my life and risk having fertility problems as well.

I am thinking of trying Clomid later to naturally raise my T, but since it is not something bio-identical and has side effects, I am more sympathetic towards trying T supplementation, if that worked of course.

[Youthful55guy]

I think the key to T supplementation is to administer daily a micro dose that is smaller than what your body would produce naturally. I will do this experiment with a T Cream 50mg/mL , using only 0.1ml a day (5mg of T daily).

However, 5mg is still higher than my natural production, but with the cream the absorption rate is around 10%, so only 0.5mg of T would be going to my system daily. I will start the experiment with this very low dose and up the dose every 3 months, to assess any progress in terms of T supplementation instead of the traditional replacement.

Any thoughts/comments/warnings on this approach bros? Please let me know before I start the experiment.

I hope that with T micro dosing I can get more benefits than those T Boosters!

Good luck, but I don't see the logic in this at all. If your body is already at it's natural set point for you in terms of T production and you add more to the system, it will react by suppressing natural production to bring it back into it's perceived set point.

Keep in mind too that in both men and women, E2 is the predominant negative feedback hormone. You would be much better off if you controlled conversion to E2 to help reset the natural set point. Then again, there is only so far you can suppress E2 before other issues become problematic.

Sorry to be yet another nay sayer!

[dikow]

Good luck, but I don't see the logic in this at all. If your body is already at it's natural set point for you in terms of T production and you add more to the system, it will react by suppressing natural production to bring it back into it's perceived set point.

Thanks for the feedback mate. But my T set point is based on endogenous+exogenous E intake, correct?

I think it all comes to if the T microdosing doesn't convert to E. If it does I will be suppressing my natural T production, otherwise not. Correct?

Keep in mind too that in both men and women, E2 is the predominant negative feedback hormone. You would be much better off if you controlled conversion to E2 to help reset the natural set point. Then again, there is only so far you can suppress E2 before other issues become problematic.

I will be controlling T conversion to E with diet and natural supplements only. Using an AI would be too much though, as I am aware of successful cases of AI mono-therapy with Aromasin , that managed to increase T and free T substantially. Therefore, I would not know if the increase was from the extra T or the AI.

[Obs]

If you can find the women study please post it here... But I am curious about these men you mention that micro dose with SQ T? All of them failed to get any benefits and got shut down?

I liked one of the T Boosters I tried (Horny goat weed and Tribulus were part of the mix). It raised my T to 420ng/dL but my estrogen, which used to be low, skyrocketed. So I stopped using temporarily.

I want the supplementation because I have symptoms of low T such as fatigue etc. But I don't want to rely on weekly TRT injections for rest of my life and risk having fertility problems as well.

I am thinking of trying Clomid later to naturally raise my T, but since it is not something bio-identical and has side effects, I am more sympathetic towards trying T supplementation, if that worked of course.

You are ignoring the steroid community here entirely. I know people that give their wive 6 mg of test prop a week for hormone therapy. I believe you have looked at every approach but for learning from the accumulative wealth of knowledge of steroids since they began. The purest forms of this accumulation can be found here.

I notice you are arguing with kel which is admirable but he has forgot more than you know.
If you introduce exogenous testosterone in any amount, it will cause a reduction in Luteinizing hormone. LH is a hormone produced by gonadotropic cells in the anterior pituitary gland. In females, an acute rise of LH triggers ovulation and development of the corpus luteum. In males, where LH had also been called interstitial cell–stimulating hormone (ICSH), it stimulates Leydig cell production of testosterone.
^^It literally converts cholesterol into testosterone^^

There is no way around it. Exogenous test reduces LH which in turn reduces the natural production of testosterone.
You are looking at testosterone as a one sided "controller"when it is in fact a result of controls.

Argue with kel again and I will bitch slap you.

Silabolin'sgreatest downfall was he could not understand LH, or the mimicing of it, by hcg .

Oh fooock my head hurts that was deep...
Damn newbs.

[Obs]

Oh and if you want to see a study of it...
LOOK NO FURTHER THAN MY ATROPHIED BALLS

[Youthful55guy]

Thanks for the feedback mate. But my T set point is based on endogenous+exogenous E intake, correct?

I think it all comes to if the T microdosing doesn't convert to E. If it does I will be suppressing my natural T production, otherwise not. Correct?



I will be controlling T conversion to E with diet and natural supplements only. Using an AI would be too much though, as I am aware of successful cases of AI mono-therapy with Aromasin, that managed to increase T and free T substantially. Therefore, I would not know if the increase was from the extra T or the AI.

Not exactly. Androgens also feedback negatively on GnRH & LH secretion, but are not as potent as E2. I don't understand the logic that very small doses of supplemental T will convert at a slower rate (mg for mg) than larger doses. As far as I know, the conversion follows enzyme mediated mass-action kinetics. The more substrate you feed the enzyme, the more it will convert until the enzyme is saturated, at which point conversion rate (mg for mg) will drop off.

To the second point, I believe controlling E2 is a wise move if you have labs to show that your E2 is high or out of range. However, playing with a necessary hormone without understanding baseline values with labs is not something I recommend. Honestly though, I wish you the best of luck with your experiment.

[kelkel]

I. But I am curious about these men you mention that micro dose with SQ T? All of them failed to get any benefits and got shut down?

Not at all. They take their weekly dose and split it into 7 and inject the "micro" dose daily. Same total T just more injections of it. Hence SQ and not IM. I know several that swear by it. Personally, I see zero need to do this and do not think its effacacy is worth the o.d. treatment.

[Quester]

All of that mentioned above plus my $.02.
First, I commend your willingness to be an independent thinker and look outside the box.
Secondly, the reason I know that said above to be scientifically correct is due to what I learned in my nursing pre-reqs. The body has feedback loops, especially with regard to our hormonal function. Your pituitary will simply produce less Test in order to balance out the exogenous supply.
I hope this helps and encourage you to keep being a free-thinker. Also, think about how much more effective your solutions would be when you incorporate the wisdom of others.
Thanks for your additions.

[Quester]

Obs,
Nah, It was more funny than rude. And your basically right, Brother.

[Couchlock]

His name is dikow, which is the phonetic spelling of the worst concentration camp in Nazi Germany, "Dachau"

[Youthful55guy]

Better post pics cant brag and be part of the family till we see you.

To both you and the original poster (who I do agree was treated with disrespect in this thread) - Why do you need to see a photo of me, or anyone else for that matter, to get advice on TRT in a testosterone replacement/anti-aging forum? How do photos speak to my knowledge of the human endocrine system or my years of experience with hormone replacement?

If you guys want to trade insults on body composition, I suggest you migrate to one of the numerous steroid forums there's plenty of Bro-science there to help you get bigger.

Oh, and BTW, there actually is no English phonetic spelling of Dachau since the English language does not have the "ch" sound in the actual German pronunciation of Dachau. The closest we come in in English is "Dackow" but the "ck" is pronounced much softer than in English.

[Quester]

His name is dikow, which is the phonetic spelling of the worst concentration camp in Nazi Germany, "Dachau"

Interesting,
Thanks for pointing that out Couch.
I already ignore some posts from some other members based on a similar principle. As Youthful seems to indicate, pure knowledge can be found anywhere and is of value in and of itself. However, in my view, no one is required to share with those whom they find morally reprehensible.

Goal and OBS,
If you drink to sleep, get your doc to prescribe Trazadone. It is the healthiest sleep/anxiety drug I know. If your drinking to relax... me too.
OBS,
I'm backing you to win this comp. DON'T DRINK FOR 3 MONTHS!

[dikow]

Not exactly. Androgens also feedback negatively on GnRH & LH secretion, but are not as potent as E2. I don't understand the logic that very small doses of supplemental T will convert at a slower rate (mg for mg) than larger doses. As far as I know, the conversion follows enzyme mediated mass-action kinetics. The more substrate you feed the enzyme, the more it will convert until the enzyme is saturated, at which point conversion rate (mg for mg) will drop off.

To the second point, I believe controlling E2 is a wise move if you have labs to show that your E2 is high or out of range. However, playing with a necessary hormone without understanding baseline values with labs is not something I recommend. Honestly though, I wish you the best of luck with your experiment.

Youthful55guy and kelkel, what are your thoughts on the possible exogenous estrogen intake we acquire through contaminated water with hormones, meat, pesticides and so forth? Wouldn't this extra estrogen, such as xenoestrogens contribute to pituitary shutdown prematurely?

I've read some research papers saying this is one of the reasons of delayed puberty in men and also why adults with less testosterone than in previous generations. Men are getting more and more feminine every generation according to some studies.

The main reason I wanted to do this experiment was to counter act the effect of these types of issues. A little bit more test per day to balance the extra estrogen we get from eating/drinking etc.

Regarding controlling my E, would you recommend the use of an AI for such low doses of T?

Cheers.

[Youthful55guy]

Youthful55guy and kelkel, what are your thoughts on the possible exogenous estrogen intake we acquire through contaminated water with hormones, meat, pesticides and so forth? Wouldn't this extra estrogen, such as xenoestrogens contribute to pituitary shutdown prematurely?

I've read some research papers saying this is one of the reasons of delayed puberty in men and also why adults with less testosterone than in previous generations. Men are getting more and more feminine every generation according to some studies.

The main reason I wanted to do this experiment was to counter act the effect of these types of issues. A little bit more test per day to balance the extra estrogen we get from eating/drinking etc.

Regarding controlling my E, would you recommend the use of an AI for such low doses of T?

Cheers.

Yes, there are theories out there with regard to xenoestrogens, and perhaps they do effect us, but there is little we can do to avoid them. While I commend your thinking outside the box, my gut feel is that you will only further suppress your HPTA with this approach and you will be left worse off.

With regard to controlling E2, I've not seen you post any labs to indicate they are out of range. E2 treatment should only be used if you have the labs to show there is a problem. Also make absolutely sure they are the proper labs. Bad information with improper labs is worse than none at all. We've discussed this recently in another string.

[Quester]

Youthful,
You have given me and the rest of us some really great insights and you are a great benefit to our community.
Your initial intervention, without the knowledge of the individual with whom you now side, was in support of the community we have here. However, there is now more than enough information for you to re-assess and make the right choice.
Do you really want to side with an individual who named himself after a concentration camp? Who knows nothing about testosterone replacement and yet suggests he will do research, about things which pub med articles exist, in order to report back to us his groundbreaking findings? Against respected members of this community? And is to much of a coward to post his own pics after viciously slamming another?

[Youthful55guy]

Youthful,
You have given me and the rest of us some really great insights and you are a great benefit to our community.
Your initial intervention, without the knowledge of the individual with whom you now side, was in support of the community we have here. However, there is now more than enough information for you to re-assess and make the right choice.
Do you really want to side with an individual who named himself after a concentration camp? Who knows nothing about testosterone replacement and yet suggests he will do research, about things which pub med articles exist, in order to report back to us his groundbreaking findings? Against respected members of this community? And is to much of a coward to post his own pics after viciously slamming another?

This is not about siding with anyone. It's simply an issue of treating people with respect in this forum. Where have manners gone? I said what I've need to say. I'm done with this this thread.

[Quester]

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[Quester]

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[kelkel]

Youthful55guy and kelkel, what are your thoughts on the possible exogenous estrogen intake we acquire through contaminated water with hormones, meat, pesticides and so forth? Wouldn't this extra estrogen, such as xenoestrogens contribute to pituitary shutdown prematurely?

I've read some research papers saying this is one of the reasons of delayed puberty in men and also why adults with less testosterone than in previous generations. Men are getting more and more feminine every generation according to some studies.

The main reason I wanted to do this experiment was to counter act the effect of these types of issues. A little bit more test per day to balance the extra estrogen we get from eating/drinking etc.

Regarding controlling my E, would you recommend the use of an AI for such low doses of T?

Cheers.

I would only worry about an AI if blood work warranted it.

[dikow]

I overdosed on the cream by accident. Used 20 ml (1000mg of T) of cream at once - half life 15 hours. What can happen?

Had a great workout afterwards with a great feeling of calmness and focus that I never had before.

However now (8 hours after using the cream) I am feeling a pressure on top of my head. I think I will have some aspirin just in case... Any advice? Should I go to the hospital?

[dikow]

I overdosed on the cream by accident. Used 20 ml (1000mg of T) of cream at once - half life 15 hours. What can happen?

Had a great workout afterwards with a great feeling of calmness and focus that I never had before.

However now (8 hours after using the cream) I am feeling a pressure on top of my head. I think I will have some aspirin just in case... Any advice? Should I go to the hospital?

Can I have overdosed on the T Cream or the skin is a natural barrier of overdose? Someone please help with advice.

[balin]

Where the cut off for micro dosing would be could be difficult to find. On 1 packet of androgel a day my T levels went from around 390 to 510. And my LH and FSH went to almost zero.

[Couchlock]

Can I have overdosed on the T Cream or the skin is a natural barrier of overdose? Someone please help with advice.

Well I'm sorry to tell you, you died the other day on the 23rd. That much cream definitely killed you.

Just quit resisting, walk towards the light bro!

Lol

What did you feel like after the headache?

How long till you felt normal again?

[TRA]

I think the key to T supplementation is to administer daily a micro dose that is smaller than what your body would produce naturally. I will do this experiment with a T Cream 50mg/mL , using only 0.1ml a day (5mg of T daily).

However, 5mg is still higher than my natural production, but with the cream the absorption rate is around 10%, so only 0.5mg of T would be going to my system daily. I will start the experiment with this very low dose and up the dose every 3 months, to assess any progress in terms of T supplementation instead of the traditional replacement.

Any thoughts/comments/warnings on this approach bros? Please let me know before I start the experiment.

I hope that with T micro dosing I can get more benefits than those T Boosters!

I think you were given a very significant amount of information by knowledgeable individuals, most of which you ignored and then went ahead with your "experiment." I have no opinion on the experiment, but in the future it might be better to simply post what you are GOING TO DO and then post up the results, good or bad, desired or undesired, so the forum can gain from it. By posting in the form of a question and seeking advice, it wastes a lot of time of others if you know from the beginning you are going to do it anyway.
Not a slam, just a point that may help you be considerate of others' time.
There are people here that are knowledgeable and even some in medicine themselves, so maybe just be more straightforward in your threads.

I didn't even comment on the fact that you "overdosed" on the topical, which really showcased you had no business arguing in the post.

[dikow]

Well I'm sorry to tell you, you died the other day on the 23rd. That much cream definitely killed you.

Just quit resisting, walk towards the light bro!

Lol

What did you feel like after the headache?

How long till you felt normal again?

Lol, I really thought I could die man... I'm very sensitive to medication and never used T or steroids .

The cream tube I was going to use for the experiment bursted inside my backpack by accident. In order to not waste the precious cream, I desperately grabbed a bunch that came off and rubbed on my belly. I'm not really sure how much it was, but definitely more than the recommended dose. The recommended dose is only 2ml per day (100mg of T).

I started feeling an incredible sense of calmness and focus around 3 hours after using the cream. Felt like that guy in the Universal Soldier movie lol. Did some cycling and then my workout as usual. When arrived home, after 8 hours, I felt this pressure on top of my head. I think it was due to the focus sensation, I contracted my head and forced my eyes too much. My heart rate definitely went higher but nothing crazy. Checked blood pressure the next day, it was ok.

The peak of T in the blood was supposed to be after 14 hours, but my impression was that it happened earlier, around 5 hours after using the cream.

I still feel some headache, but it's got better.

According to the manufacturer, the skin is a natural barrier of overdose. They say that if you put too much it just won't be absorbed. Do you guys agree with this claim from the manufacturer? Hope this is correct and the headache is nothing serious. The blood clot thing really got me worried.

[dikow]

Where the cut off for micro dosing would be could be difficult to find. On 1 packet of androgel a day my T levels went from around 390 to 510. And my LH and FSH went to almost zero.

Agree. If such a cut off exists, it is less than 1 packet for sure.

If this cut off could be found, it would be the best case solution in my opinion. Better than TRT or Clomid/HCG monotherapy.

[dikow]

I didn't even comment on the fact that you "overdosed" on the topical, which really showcased you had no business arguing in the post.

You can overdose and have side effects

[dikow]

I tried a regular dose of the test cream (Androforte 5) and felt worse on it. Any reason why this happens? I think this Androforte 5 cream is a poor quality brand compared to other brands such as Androgel . I've never heard of anyone having success with Androforte 5.

I am thinking of stacking a low dose of T cream with the low dose Clomid I am taking. Is that going to help my Clomid monotherapy?