HRT - Cycle or not - confusion

[ozraelised]

Hi all,

I did my BW and was wondering do I do a cycle or do I just start HRT and dont stop?

25omg/ml test enanthat --> 0.5 ml Monday and Friday
Arimidex --> 0.5 mg every other day
HCG --> 1000ui every 4 days

Any suggestions ?

[kelkel]

Post your BW so we can review it.

[Youthful55guy]

Hi all,

I did my BW and was wondering do I do a cycle or do I just start HRT and dont stop?

25omg/ml test enanthat --> 0.5 ml Monday and Friday
Arimidex --> 0.5 mg every other day
HCG --> 1000ui every 4 days

Any suggestions ?

I'm confused about the question. With TRT, we do not cycle. It is a lifelong medication and we strive for stable and sustainable protocols. If I understand your protocol correctly, 250 X 0.5 = 125mg T-eth twice a week is not TRT, it's a bodybuilding dose. Maintaining that dose indefinitely will eventually kill you from side-effects.

[ozraelised]

I'm confused about the question. With TRT, we do not cycle. It is a lifelong medication and we strive for stable and sustainable protocols. If I understand your protocol correctly, 250 X 0.5 = 125mg T-eth twice a week is not TRT, it's a bodybuilding dose. Maintaining that dose indefinitely will eventually kill you from side-effects.

Hi Kelkel,

OK so now I am confused as well . and really banging my head at the wall.
Blood test showed low Test -very near the low rang about 5 point.
I have been looking at this site for a while and unable to find a direction. obviously my doctor is not up to scratch , I live in Australia in a small town and there is not much choice.
The doctor said that he will try and help me with anything he can. Is there an online doctor even in the state that I can load the blood result to get some good direction.
Is any one know a doctor in Australia, today with technology distance should not be a problem.

Thanks

[ozraelised]

Post your BW so we can review it.

Full Blood:
(x10^9 /L)
HB: 159 g/l (130-180) white cell count 4.9 (4.0-11.0)
PCV: 0.45 L/L (0.40-0.54) Neutrophis: 49% 2.4 (2.0-8.0)
RCC: 5.44 x10^12 /L(4.50-6.50) Lymphocytes: 38% 1.9 (1.0-4.0)
MCV: 84 fL (80-96) Monocytes: 10% 0.5 (0.0-1.0)
MCH 29 pg (27-32) Eosinphils: 2% 0.1 (0.0-0.5)
MCHC: 350 g/L (320-360) Basophils: 1% 0.0 (0.0-0.2)
RDW: 13.7% (11.0-16.0)
Platelets : 182 (150-450)
Commet: Red cell, white cell and platelets within normal limits.

TSH 1.76 mIU/L 0.50-4.00 ref range

Ref.Rang
Total Testosterone : 11.5 nmol/L (10.0-31.0)
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin : 32 nmol/L (13-71)
Calculated Free Testosterone: 233 pmol/L (225-725)

SERUN HORMONES :

Preference Intervals adult male
FSH IU/L 3 1-10
LH IU/L 2 1-10

PROG nmol/L 1.2-4.8 1.2-4.8

Please let me know if you need anything else.

[BuddyGlove1]

Is it possible that Ozraelised's body uses the drug differently than some? Personally I don't need much AI and use 200mg/week with test in normal range. Friend who is around 225 and uses 250mg/week of tcyp. Only time I have noticed sides is when I was traveling and didn't have my AI at all for a week. Became a little bi**hy.

[Youthful55guy]

Is it possible that Ozraelised's body uses the drug differently than some? Personally I don't need much AI and use 200mg/week with test in normal range. Friend who is around 225 and uses 250mg/week of tcyp. Only time I have noticed sides is when I was traveling and didn't have my AI at all for a week. Became a little bi**hy.

I'm at a loss to explain his lab tests. Typically guys with normal SHBG do not need nearly that much T. It's usually the guys with low SHBG that hyper-metabolize T.

He mentioned that the T was 250 mg/mL. This has me suspicious that it is black market T and not prescribed T. Ozraelised, can you confirm your source?

I've only seen 200 mg/mL and 100 mg/mL T from pharmaceutical sources. There's numerous black market sources selling 250 mg/mL T. If it is black market, it makes me wonder if it really has the stated concentration.

[kelkel]

Hi Kelkel,

OK so now I am confused as well . and really banging my head at the wall.
Blood test showed low Test -very near the low rang about 5 point.
I have been looking at this site for a while and unable to find a direction. obviously my doctor is not up to scratch , I live in Australia in a small town and there is not much choice.
The doctor said that he will try and help me with anything he can. Is there an online doctor even in the state that I can load the blood result to get some good direction.
Is any one know a doctor in Australia, today with technology distance should not be a problem.

Thanks

My point was Blood Work is how you find the causative factor and hopefully fix it, thus avoiding TRT.
Some causes of low T are hypothyroidism, cortisol / prolactin issues, trauma (head - testical) and so on...
I'm reading this as you have not initiated anything just yet, correct?
LH is basically bottomed out. It all starts here. Prolactin would be good in this instance to rule out an adenoma.
When you have low LH you're bound to have low T.

[ozraelised]

Hi All,

Yes the Test is a black market one. its hard in Aus even with a doc to get prescription. See the image .
I haven't started anything at this stage , at the moment I am just training on the days that I dont to karate and do abut 3-4 hours physical work on the weekend ( sit on my backside during the week).

I will not start anything until I know and understand all the ins and outs.

I am 50 almost 51 and need help to be a lot more active I want to be able to work all day and then come home and train HARD, run Hard, feel GOOD without getting sick or getting absolutely exhausted that I cant sleep.
My diet is sport on I can feel the changes just by eating right, that include size, timing, and type of foods. I just want more, maybe I do need to think of this as a cycle and do a cycle not sure.
I can see that from my blood result my test is low . from what I read about the symptoms I can make a change.

Do you have an online doc that can help I will be happy to skype send the BW etc.

Waiting for your help please

[Sh0tsf1red]

Hi All,

Yes the Test is a black market one. its hard in Aus even with a doc to get prescription. See the image .
I haven't started anything at this stage , at the moment I am just training on the days that I dont to karate and do abut 3-4 hours physical work on the weekend ( sit on my backside during the week).

I will not start anything until I know and understand all the ins and outs.

I am 50 almost 51 and need help to be a lot more active I want to be able to work all day and then come home and train HARD, run Hard, feel GOOD without getting sick or getting absolutely exhausted that I cant sleep.
My diet is sport on I can feel the changes just by eating right, that include size, timing, and type of foods. I just want more, maybe I do need to think of this as a cycle and do a cycle not sure.
I can see that from my blood result my test is low . from what I read about the symptoms I can make a change.

Do you have an online doc that can help I will be happy to skype send the BW etc.

Waiting for your help please

Is there not a TRT doc in your area?

[Youthful55guy]

Hi All,

Yes the Test is a black market one. its hard in Aus even with a doc to get prescription. See the image .
I haven't started anything at this stage , at the moment I am just training on the days that I dont to karate and do abut 3-4 hours physical work on the weekend ( sit on my backside during the week).

I will not start anything until I know and understand all the ins and outs.

I am 50 almost 51 and need help to be a lot more active I want to be able to work all day and then come home and train HARD, run Hard, feel GOOD without getting sick or getting absolutely exhausted that I cant sleep.
My diet is sport on I can feel the changes just by eating right, that include size, timing, and type of foods. I just want more, maybe I do need to think of this as a cycle and do a cycle not sure.
I can see that from my blood result my test is low . from what I read about the symptoms I can make a change.

Do you have an online doc that can help I will be happy to skype send the BW etc.

Waiting for your help please

OK, now it's becoming a little clearer. You are posting a PROPOSED TRT protocol and not one that you have already started.

Your blood labs before starting any TRT:

TSH 1.76 mIU/L 0.50-4.00 ref range
Total Testosterone : 11.5 nmol/L (10.0-31.0)
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin : 32 nmol/L (13-71)
Calculated Free Testosterone: 233 pmol/L (225-725)
FSH IU/L 3 1-10
LH IU/L 2 1-10
PROG nmol/L 1.2-4.8 1.2-4.8

Your tests before TRT show that your Total T, and Free T are in the low-normal range. These indicate that there is a T issue, but the exact cause needs to be ascertained.

Your SHBG is normal. Your gonadotropins (LH/FSH) are in the low-normal range and this could be the causative issue, but keep in mind that gonadotropins are highly episodic and require several tests to determine if indeed you are low or normal (you could be simply hitting a nadir value). I suggest repeating and making sure they are as early in the morning as possible when gonadotropins are at their highest. This is also where they draw the blood from volunteers to determine the "normal" ranges.


I'm assuming PROG = Progesterone. You are in the low range, but that would be expected given that your T levels are low. I would expect the same for Estradiol.

If you are going to start TRT, I suggest you start with a MUCH lower (weekly total) dose. Start with 100mg per week split into a 2X weekly or every-3-day protocol (e.g. 40 mg E3D or 50 mg 2X per week). Then retest in 6 weeks with a full TRT panel (see stickys for suggestions) and then adjust from there. I would not introduce anastrozole or any other E2 inhibitor or blocker unless your labs (with the correct test) indicate that you are high in E2. This is a very common mistake I see over and over in these forums.

[ozraelised]

Unfortunately not.

[Youthful55guy]

Unfortunately not.

So these are labs after you started that ridiculously high dose of T?

I think you got shafted with something that's not T. STOP TAKING IT! God knows what's in it.

At that dose (250 mg/wk), your T should be near off the charts, and LH/FSH should be undetectable, not low.

[ozraelised]

Hi Youthful55guy,

I am not taking anything at this stage.
And will not take anything untill I am 1000% sure.
This is why I am on this site to speak to those that can help.
Just feel like I am not moving forward. Lol I will just ignore that feeling .
Someone that I know uses that site , this guy is training for the strongest man competition.

The blood results are about two weeks old and I am not doing anything at this stage ,

[ozraelised]

unfortunately not

[ozraelised]

update,
hopefully found a DOC, have an appointment tomorrow. I had to have a referral from my GP.
Will keep you all posted

[ScotchGuard02]

Very interesting. Keep updating your status. Good luck.

[ozraelised]

OK, now it's becoming a little clearer. You are posting a PROPOSED TRT protocol and not one that you have already started.

Your blood labs before starting any TRT:

TSH 1.76 mIU/L 0.50-4.00 ref range
Total Testosterone : 11.5 nmol/L (10.0-31.0)
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin : 32 nmol/L (13-71)
Calculated Free Testosterone: 233 pmol/L (225-725)
FSH IU/L 3 1-10
LH IU/L 2 1-10
PROG nmol/L 1.2-4.8 1.2-4.8

Your tests before TRT show that your Total T, and Free T are in the low-normal range. These indicate that there is a T issue, but the exact cause needs to be ascertained.

Your SHBG is normal. Your gonadotropins (LH/FSH) are in the low-normal range and this could be the causative issue, but keep in mind that gonadotropins are highly episodic and require several tests to determine if indeed you are low or normal (you could be simply hitting a nadir value). I suggest repeating and making sure they are as early in the morning as possible when gonadotropins are at their highest. This is also where they draw the blood from volunteers to determine the "normal" ranges.


I'm assuming PROG = Progesterone. You are in the low range, but that would be expected given that your T levels are low. I would expect the same for Estradiol.

If you are going to start TRT, I suggest you start with a MUCH lower (weekly total) dose. Start with 100mg per week split into a 2X weekly or every-3-day protocol (e.g. 40 mg E3D or 50 mg 2X per week). Then retest in 6 weeks with a full TRT panel (see stickys for suggestions) and then adjust from there. I would not introduce anastrozole or any other E2 inhibitor or blocker unless your labs (with the correct test) indicate that you are high in E2. This is a very common mistake I see over and over in these forums.

hi Youthfull55guy,

It has been awhile but I took your advice very seriously. jsut for the record I am not doing any TRT at this stage.
I fixed my diet lost about 6kg most around the waist feeling a little better. I can see improvement in my Karate and a little energy levels.

new blood work from January shows numbers a little better but still on the low side .
I found a doctor that can help with blood work and per your suggestions I am starting with the following

test E 250mg/ml - will be taking 100mg per week split into 2 Mondays and Thursdays.
my doc suggested to make sure I have estrogen control and at the moment I am considering between the :

Nolvadex -D, Aromasin and Arimidex .

another blood test tomorrow and should have the results next week. once I have them I will start the TRT .

if you have any suggestions or any other input that will be great, would love to hear anything about the the three estrogen control that I am thinking of using.

Thank you,

[Youthful55guy]

test E 250mg/ml - will be taking 100mg per week split into 2 Mondays and Thursdays.
my doc suggested to make sure I have estrogen control and at the moment I am considering between the :

Nolvadex -D, Aromasin and Arimidex .

another blood test tomorrow and should have the results next week. once I have them I will start the TRT .

if you have any suggestions or any other input that will be great, would love to hear anything about the the three estrogen control that I am thinking of using.

Thank you,

I disagree with your doctor. Estrogen control should never be introduced without specific labs to indicate that it is necessary. I see way to many guys in these forums paranoid of getting gynecomastia and drive their E down to near nothing. This is usually followed by complaints of ED, low libido, and delayed ejaculation.

Think about it, if T is maintained within physiological levels during the entire week, which it should with 100 mg 2X split dosing, why would E go out of range? E is made from T and you are simply bringing T back up to a more youthful level. Why then don't we treat every 18 year old with E inhibitors or blockers? The answer is simple, because T never goes out of range, so E will always be maintained within range and there is no need for it.

My recommendation is that you do not start any E control unless you have specific labs (with the correct test) that indicates that it is necessary. Given that your doc is recommending it without any labs, I'd also make darn sure that if/when he does order E labs that your are getting a lab designed for men and not the standard E lab designed for women. Ordering the wrong lab is worse than not having any lab at all because you will always test high in a lab designed for women. Another very common mistake.

[ozraelised]

Hi Youthful55guy,

Thank you for the quick reply.
I agree as well. Did blood test this morning and yes made sure with my doctor that it's the right one.

In the past 4 months I done a lots of research, one think I found is the trt info from excelmen dot com

Watching the science behind and understanding the hormone follow downward, brain to testical and the upwards follow of hormones back from the testical.

I'll start TRT without any estrogens control, but as I might need some , depending on the blood test 4-6 weeks into the TRT which one of the three products you think are the best one ?

I am also considering HCG in small quantities 300iu 2 a week with my test injections.

Again thank you for your time much appreciated.

[Youthful55guy]

Hi Youthful55guy,

Thank you for the quick reply.
I agree as well. Did blood test this morning and yes made sure with my doctor that it's the right one.

In the past 4 months I done a lots of research, one think I found is the trt info from excelmen dot com

Watching the science behind and understanding the hormone follow downward, brain to testical and the upwards follow of hormones back from the testical.

I'll start TRT without any estrogens control, but as I might need some , depending on the blood test 4-6 weeks into the TRT which one of the three products you think are the best one ?

I am also considering HCG in small quantities 300iu 2 a week with my test injections.

Again thank you for your time much appreciated.

I only have experience with anastrozole. I find it difficult to dose correctly because I only need a small amount to keep my E within range. I dose at 0.5 mg per week divided into daily doses of about 0.07 mg. I do this by dissolving 1 mg tablets into 1.5 mL of vodka and dispensing 5 drops per day into my morning glass of water. This keeps my E in the 25 to 30 pg/mL range (normal = 8-35 with the LC/MS/MS method).

I strongly recommend HCG. 300 IU 2X per week is a good dose, although I dose a little higher at 450 IU E3D.

[Ephemeral]

I only have experience with anastrozole. I find it difficult to dose correctly because I only need a small amount to keep my E within range. I dose at 0.5 mg per week divided into daily doses of about 0.07 mg. I do this by dissolving 1 mg tablets into 1.5 mL of vodka and dispensing 5 drops per day into my morning glass of water. This keeps my E in the 25 to 30 pg/mL range (normal = 8-35 with the LC/MS/MS method).

I strongly recommend HCG. 300 IU 2X per week is a good dose, although I dose a little higher at 450 IU E3D.

Can I ask the reason behind your higher HCG dose? Is there a significant difference between 500 and 1000 a week?

[Youthful55guy]

Mostly because 1000 IU per week was shown in a clinical study on healthy volunteers receiving TRT (200 mg T-eth/week) to be the magic amount to restore pre-treatment Intratesticular testosterone (ITT) levels. That is, normal testicular function relating to fertility. That's not to say you can't get by with lesser amounts, I did 500 IU per week for many years. I upped it to 1000 simply because I have a script that allows me to dose at that level. I have not noticed any change in testicular volume at the higher dose. About the only change I've noticed is that I tend to produce more pre-ejaculate (clear fluid from the Cowper's gland). Overall volume does not seem to have change at the higher dose.