Qs RE: switching from topicals to pinning

[Beetlegeuse]

I've asked questions in this same vein before but I haven't switched my TRT from gel to injectable yet because my shoulder was still gimpy from supraspinatus and labrum surgery. But now the time is come to make the switch and I feel I need to pick youz guyz brains on exactly how I'm going to go about this.

The first issue is dosage. I'm applying ~80 mg of topical Test each day (from 6 grams of 1.62% gel). I need to figure the equivalent dose from pinning Test Cyp. Sources I'm finding say figure 10% of topicals gets used and 70% of injectables [yes/no/maybe?]. By that measure only ~8 mg of the 80 I'm applying now is effective. And to get 8 mg (effective) from Test Cyp, pinned, would take (8÷0.7=) 11.5 mg injected.

So if I pin (11.5x3.5=) 40.25 mg every 3.5 days, that should put my average Test level in the same neighborhood as four pumps (6 grams) of 1.62% Androgel taken daily. [yes/no/maybe?]

Except how my body responds to injectable probably will be different, and I'm guessing my average Test levels will be some improved over topicals at the same dosage.

Zat check out with you guys?

Because Deca is reputed to be of benefit to the joints, and because I'm fighting to hold off on knee replacements, I thought it might be of some benefit to add an occasional jolt of Deca to my TRT. Which leads me to a number of questions, which I'm asking now so I might get the Deca at the same time as the Test Cyp. First off, what's the lowest dose of Deca I could do and still reasonably expect joint benefits? And how frequently would I need to repeat that to sustain those benefits? And how should I adjust the Test Cyp dose so I don't give myself boobies? Is it a straight-up 1:1 swap, drop 1 mg of Test Cyp to add 1 mg of Deca? Or is this something I just shouldn't screw with?

About the pinning. One of the reasons I balked at injectable when the VA first put me on TRT was I tend to have problems with scarring, and I thought spending the rest of my natural life jobbing a hypodermic needle into my thighs would be tempting fate. However, I've been self-administering hCG for some time now, so I've warmed to the idea of pinning, at least with small-gauge needles and sub-q injections. So the plan is to start with pinning the Test sub-q as well.

I'm already stockpiled with 31-gauge slin pins for the hCG, and naturally I'd prefer that pinning the Test was as painless as the hCG usually is, so I'm curious what the smallest needle is that anyone has successfully used for Test Cyp. I seem to recall reading some of the more experienced members here saying they had used 31-gauge, but my google-fu is on the fritz and I can't seem to find those threads. I understand the smaller the needle is, the longer the injecting will take, and I've been practicing being r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w with the hCG.

On that same subject I understand that beyond the extra effort required, injecting oil-based Test can cause "pressure washer" damage and leave bruises. I routinely inject about 0.6 ml of hCG through a 31-gauge needle. Before I knew better I wasn't doing it particularly slowly but I've never had it cause any bruising (except when I could tell from the pain and the drop of blood that I'd hit a vein) so I'm guessing the oily stuff just reacts differently. So how would you know you're being slow enough?

[Couchlockd]

if your not opposed to pinning daily, test no ester.

11 mg am and 11 mg pm

[Youthful55guy]

You can't equate topical dosages to injectable dosage. The absorption rate of topical is too variable. However, your proposed dosage of about 40 mg E3D is about right for a staring dose of injectable. Follow it up in about 6 weeks with a full set of labs and then adjust from there if you need to.

I have no experience with Deca , so no comment except that I personally wouldn't do it for purported joint therapy. Are there medical studies to support it for this use? I am hesitant to apply bodybuilding locker room hand-me-down knowledge to TRT.

Regarding needle size, the smallest needle I've ever used is 30G, but it is slow. I tend to stick with 28G. That's the beauty of frequent small doses like you are proposing, you can go down to these small needle sizes and it's virtually painless.

[ScotchGuard02]

If you're switching to injectables for TRT, pin a long ester, like Test Cyp or Test Decanoate. You only have to pin once a week instead of two or three times a week.

[kelkel]

Agree with Y55G regarding starting low and titrating up. Re pin size, my favorite for low volume injections is 27 ga .5". You can inject anywhere as it doesn't matter if it ends up SQ, IM or a combination of both. It all absorbs.

When it comes to Deca as part of a TRT protocol I'm a big proponent of it as it simply works, imho. I've run it for years in conjunction with my TRT at a dose of about 125 mgs per week. My doc used to write if for me and it was covered by insurance but eventually they balked at it. It's cheap enough to obtain on my own anyway.

Any remember YG BB'ers and Powerlifters have always been a step ahead when it comes to applying new techniques and advancing the science of AAS or otherwise. Basically trend setters to which the science community later follows. Maybe it can be called locker room talk but it's what tons of BB-ers know via personal experience that it can dramatically help joints.

Here's an interesting review:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837307/

[Youthful55guy]

If you're switching to injectables for TRT, pin a long ester, like Test Cyp or Test Decanoate. You only have to pin once a week instead of two or three times a week.

I disagree. Once per week protocols with T-cyp or T-ethis old school. In order to keep T within range all week with once per week T-cyp or T-eth, you have to ramp way up on the dose and that will drive the Day 2-4 levels out of range and cause E conversion problems. Also, it becomes a hormonal rollercoaster. It is much better to go with a 2C or E3D protocol.

[Youthful55guy]

Agree with Y55G regarding starting low and titrating up. Re pin size, my favorite for low volume injections is 27 ga .5". You can inject anywhere as it doesn't matter if it ends up SQ, IM or a combination of both. It all absorbs.

When it comes to Deca as part of a TRT protocol I'm a big proponent of it as it simply works, imho. I've run it for years in conjunction with my TRT at a dose of about 125 mgs per week. My doc used to write if for me and it was covered by insurance but eventually they balked at it. It's cheap enough to obtain on my own anyway.

Any remember YG BB'ers and Powerlifters have always been a step ahead when it comes to applying new techniques and advancing the science of AAS or otherwise. Basically trend setters to which the science community later follows. Maybe it can be called locker room talk but it's what tons of BB-ers know via personal experience that it can dramatically help joints.

Here's an interesting review:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837307/

Thanks for the reference. I'll need to read and digest it when I have a minute. Always open to continuing education!

[Beetlegeuse]

Thanks for that information, kelkel. Looks like slin pins ain't gonna cut it any more.

I like the idea of the Deca in theory but information I've come across in the last couple of days convinced me it's best I start with just Test Cyp. For one thing I'm only planning on barely 80 mg/week and I've found information that you need 100 mg/week of Deca for joint benefits. So I'm thinking I can't even get close unless I'm all Deca, all the time.

But I've archived a copy of that NIH webpage for future reference.

The same source also said that Deca is really good for boosting RBCs, but my Hct already is high enough that my urologist has expressed concern over it. The pressing question is whether for convenience's sake I should go ahead and get Deca at the same time as the Test Cyp, and I'm thinking I should just run Test Cyp until I see where that's going. In fact that alone could put my Hct over the threshold.

When I asked my urologist about switching to injectible, his first reservation was that my Hct in my last labs was 48.4. According to him, injectible tends to increase Hct more than topicals. I thought he was blowing smoke up my ass but I've found there are studies that back him up. In these tests, Androderm was found to cause polycythemia in 5-15% of cases, Androgel in 10-20% and injectible in up to 40% of cases.

But I have my doubts it's all down to the method of administration. From what I can find, these tests made no effort to isolate the frequency of administration as a causative effect (because that might impugn their administration protocols, which are standard medical dogma???). But why else should the gel be 33% more likely to cause polycythemia than the patch? They're both administering Test Cyp topically. Except one administers it continuously and the other is delivered for a couple of hours out of every 24. So Test levels from the gel naturally are going to be a little spikier.

Now expand that theory to injectibles. In the standard (medical community) protocol, how far apart are injections? Once a week? Or more? And the gel's sawtoothed test levels become injectible's picket fences.

So maybe the actual cause is the scale of the fluctuations, not the method of administration itself. Because the tests apparently made no effort to rule out that possibility.

Anyway, that's my bullshit theory, which is why I'm looking at Test Cyp sub-q e3.5d. Plus I'm already doing Hct e3d, so I can just up the Hct dose a bit and take the both of them mixed from one injection, e3.5d. Then wait to see how that impacts my Hct.