TRT Advice

[DJMikeT]

Hey guys, looks like I'm going to have to start TRT (Age 49 and levels are really low).

Just had my Test levels checked last week because I have been feeling like total crap, no energy, no desire to do anything, no sex drive, etc....

So my levels came back at 200 and my Primary Care Physician put me on Test Cyp 100mg every 2 weeks. (At least that's what it says on the Rx)

I have not had a chance to call his office back because of the weekend but at 2 week intervals my levels would be all over the place.
Everything I have read on TRT protocol recommends weekly or bi-weekly injections do to the half life of Test Cyp. Hopefully he will listen to me I get a chance to explain.
In the meantime I'm trying to get another appointment with a top notch Urologist that was recommended to me.

Another thing is my PCP didn't say anything about an AI or HCG for my TRT. I've done some research and found some people don't need an
AI at low does TRT so I was going to wait a few weeks until we get the next blood work panel done and see how my E2 levels are doing, hopefully
I won't need it but already have some on hand just in case.

I've read HCG is very helpful for keeping Testicles for shrinking up to nothing.

What levels are considered optimal for TRT? My best friend is using a clinic and he says they keep him around 1000 ng/dL and he feels great so that's what
I'm thinking for myself but insight for fellow members already doing TRT would be helpful.

Just seeking for insight so I have my facts straight when I get a chance to speak with my doctor.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Youthful55guy]

A couple of points to consider:

1) 100mg every 2 weeks is not enough or frequent enough to do anything other than screw your hormones up further. I'd suggest no TRT rather than that protocol. You've read it before in the other threads, so I'll just reiterate it here. You should start out with a dose of around 100mg per week split into at least 2 doses (e.g. 50 mg spaced 3 and 4 days apart). I much prefer the every 3 day method (E3D) because then the intervals are even and slightly more frequent than the 3/4 day split. This also allows you to draw labs at any of the scheduled doses, whereas with the 3/4 days split you have to target a specific day of the week all the time so that the labs are comparable. A helpful hint for the E3D protocol is to program it into you computer calendar and sync it with your cell phone calendar and set them with alarms. That way you'll never miss a dose, which is actually easy to do with these more frequent protocols because you hormone levels are very constant and you have not of the up and down mood swings from the archaic weekly, or worse biweekly protocols.

2) At you level of 100 mg E2W, you have no need to worry about excess conversion to E. Quite the opposite. Your natural hormones will be suppressed, so the last week of the 2 week cycle you will be way below normal (and feel like crap). E naturally follows T, so when T is in the dumpster, so will your E. Most guys as paranoid of E, which is a carryover from what they've read in the bodybuilding forums where they use ridiculously high levels of T and/or aromatizable synthetic steroids that convert to E and/or have progestin-like activity. The two in combination (as BB often stack) is a recipe for gynecomastia . However, if you keep your T within physiological levels at all times (as will happen with a 100mg E3D protocol), E should also remain within physiological ranges. Guys need E too for normal erections and libido. It's an irony of nature, but you go limp without it. A word to the wise is NEVER mess around with an AI unless you have labs (and I mean the correct labs) that show your E is out of range. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, insist on the male "sensitive" assay. Never use the standard female lab (most docs don't know the difference). You will always test high for E with the standard female lab and end up crushing your with unnecessary AI treatments and end up with a bad case of ED. The best lab is the LabCorp LC/MS/MS method. Get it yourself if the doc won't order it: https://www.discountedlabs.com/estra...itive-lc-ms-ms

3) I would focus on getting you T protocol dialed in and stable and then layer on HCG . Yes, you balls will shrivel up to the size of peanuts with T and you can preserve testicular size and function with HCG. I'd start out with a dose of around 500 IU per week split into 3 injections spaced roughly equally apart. I always stop HCG a week or so before my scheduled labs to get a reading on just the TRT part of the protocol and so my labs are comparable. At 500 IU per week, your T levels will be boosted about 300 ng/dL above the no HCG labs. Just keep that in mind when interpreting the results.

4) Regarding target T doses, you should focus on Free T and not Total T. SHBG levels can effect Free T and it's Free T that is biologically active. I always shoot for the upper 75th percentile of the 20 to 30 year old range, which is about 21 to 22 pg/mL Free T using LabCorp. However, ranges vary from lab to lab, so keep that in mind. If your SHBG is about mid-range, the Total T necessary to get that level of free T will be around 800 to 1000 ng/dL, but is HIGHLY dependent on the exact level of SHBG. Again, I never use Total T to interpret my labs, I ALWAYS look at Free T.

5) Finally, get a new doc. Any doc that prescribes 100mg every 2 weeks should have their license revoked.

[DJMikeT]

A couple of points to consider:

1) 100mg every 2 weeks is not enough or frequent enough to do anything other than screw your hormones up further. I'd suggest no TRT rather than that protocol. You've read it before in the other threads, so I'll just reiterate it here. You should start out with a dose of around 100mg per week split into at least 2 doses (e.g. 50 mg spaced 3 and 4 days apart). I much prefer the every 3 day method (E3D) because then the intervals are even and slightly more frequent than the 3/4 day split. This also allows you to draw labs at any of the scheduled doses, whereas with the 3/4 days split you have to target a specific day of the week all the time so that the labs are comparable. A helpful hint for the E3D protocol is to program it into you computer calendar and sync it with your cell phone calendar and set them with alarms. That way you'll never miss a dose, which is actually easy to do with these more frequent protocols because you hormone levels are very constant and you have not of the up and down mood swings from the archaic weekly, or worse biweekly protocols.

2) At you level of 100 mg E2W, you have no need to worry about excess conversion to E. Quite the opposite. Your natural hormones will be suppressed, so the last week of the 2 week cycle you will be way below normal (and feel like crap). E naturally follows T, so when T is in the dumpster, so will your E. Most guys as paranoid of E, which is a carryover from what they've read in the bodybuilding forums where they use ridiculously high levels of T and/or aromatizable synthetic steroids that convert to E and/or have progestin-like activity. The two in combination (as BB often stack) is a recipe for gynecomastia . However, if you keep your T within physiological levels at all times (as will happen with a 100mg E3D protocol), E should also remain within physiological ranges. Guys need E too for normal erections and libido. It's an irony of nature, but you go limp without it. A word to the wise is NEVER mess around with an AI unless you have labs (and I mean the correct labs) that show your E is out of range. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, insist on the male "sensitive" assay. Never use the standard female lab (most docs don't know the difference). You will always test high for E with the standard female lab and end up crushing your with unnecessary AI treatments and end up with a bad case of ED. The best lab is the LabCorp LC/MS/MS method. Get it yourself if the doc won't order it: https://www.discountedlabs.com/estra...itive-lc-ms-ms

3) I would focus on getting you T protocol dialed in and stable and then layer on HCG . Yes, you balls will shrivel up to the size of peanuts with T and you can preserve testicular size and function with HCG. I'd start out with a dose of around 500 IU per week split into 3 injections spaced roughly equally apart. I always stop HCG a week or so before my scheduled labs to get a reading on just the TRT part of the protocol and so my labs are comparable. At 500 IU per week, your T levels will be boosted about 300 ng/dL above the no HCG labs. Just keep that in mind when interpreting the results.

4) Regarding target T doses, you should focus on Free T and not Total T. SHBG levels can effect Free T and it's Free T that is biologically active. I always shoot for the upper 75th percentile of the 20 to 30 year old range, which is about 21 to 22 pg/mL Free T using LabCorp. However, ranges vary from lab to lab, so keep that in mind. If your SHBG is about mid-range, the Total T necessary to get that level of free T will be around 800 to 1000 ng/dL, but is HIGHLY dependent on the exact level of SHBG. Again, I never use Total T to interpret my labs, I ALWAYS look at Free T.

5) Finally, get a new doc. Any doc that prescribes 100mg every 2 weeks should have their license revoked.

Thanks for the reply with great information.

I'm not sure if my Doc wrote the Rx that way or if the Pharmacy labeled that way, I'll have to call and find out but ya I knew 2 week intervals would have my hormones all messed up.

In past cycles I've always done the 3 day pins even with the long esters for more stable levels.

I'm going to try to get scheduled with the other doctor if possible, I just hear it's hard to get in because he's so busy but we'll see.
I'll talk to my PCP also and see if he understands everything you mentioned above.

Thanks again for the input.

[kelkel]

5) Finally, get a new doc. Any doc that prescribes 100mg every 2 weeks should have their license revoked.

Always good advice from Y55. And the above sentence sums it up. There's no doubt in my mind it's how he prescribed it. Unfortunately it's common for docs to write it based on the terminal life of test as opposed to half life. Shows how little effort they actually put in to understanding hormones.....

[DJMikeT]

Hey guys just a little follow up. I was able to get in and see one of the best Urologists at Baylor and I told him my situation and he totally agreed that my Primary Care Physician didn't understand the whole TRT process. The doctor looked at my blood work and examined me. He told me that having surgery on the varicocele that I have on my left side would help with Test production once it was corrected. He said I could easy see about a 100 point increase on my level range so I'm considering getting it done. Just getting with insurance to find out of pocket cost.

So the doctor prescribed me 10ml vials of Test Cyp and told me 175mg a week, he also prescribed Arimidex and HCG . I was really impressed with this doctor, he was very knowledgeable and listened to me.

One thing I found out is my Prostate is a little bigger than normal, he said it wasn't bad but I was considering taking either Tamsulosin (Flomax) + Fina stride or Tamsulosin + Dutasteride and was wondering if one was better than the other. I know that Dutasteride is helpful for reducing Prostate size.

Any thoughts from experienced members about the drugs mentioned above??

Thanks for all the help so far, you guys are very great and it's very much appreciated!

[Youthful55guy]

Just a couple of thoughts.

1) I have no experience with the BHP drugs he suggested, but I'd be interested in your experience. I have it on my list of things to research more. I too have a "larger than average" prostate. I've been told this for over 15 years, long before starting TRT. however, it's not bothered me, so I've not sought treatment. Lately, I'm noticing some small urine flow issues. Not much, but enough to make me want to research it more. I know I need to get my out of range DHT down, and I'm slowly increasing my saw/pygem supplementation and having some response. I'd like to avoid finasteride if possible.

2) The 175 mg T dose is a little higher than I'd suggest for a starting dose, but not hugely outrageous. Consider taking a slower approach at 100 mg in split doses. Then in 6 weeks increase it if the labs dictate. My guess is that you will not need the Arimidex if you do this.

3) HCG is good. I usually recommend dialing in the T dose first and then layering it in, but that's not an absolute.

4) I am concerned though that you will not be satisfied with "normal" production after starting TRT and then getting the varicocele fixed. Coming off of TRT is difficult. You might want to consider getting that fixed first before starting TRT (if that's your decision).

[DJMikeT]

Just a couple of thoughts.

1) I have no experience with the BHP drugs he suggested, but I'd be interested in your experience. I have it on my list of things to research more. I too have a "larger than average" prostate. I've been told this for over 15 years, long before starting TRT. however, it's not bothered me, so I've not sought treatment. Lately, I'm noticing some small urine flow issues. Not much, but enough to make me want to research it more. I know I need to get my out of range DHT down, and I'm slowly increasing my saw/pygem supplementation and having some response. I'd like to avoid finasteride if possible.

2) The 175 mg T dose is a little higher than I'd suggest for a starting dose, but not hugely outrageous. Consider taking a slower approach at 100 mg in split doses. Then in 6 weeks increase it if the labs dictate. My guess is that you will not need the Arimidex if you do this.

So he told me that the surgery would not be a total fix but he said it would have some helpful benefits, also I have dull ache from time to time there and he said it because of the vericocile.

I told him about starting at the 100mg point but he said for my age that was under dosed and he wanted me to up to 175mg/week. Right now I'm 1 week into TRT and have been injectioning 100mg/week with bi-weekly injections (50mg each injection).

I'm going to hold off on the AI until I get my first blood work in about 4 weeks and see where my E2 levels are and go from there.

[DJMikeT]

Just a couple of thoughts.

1) I have no experience with the BHP drugs he suggested, but I'd be interested in your experience. I have it on my list of things to research more. I too have a "larger than average" prostate. I've been told this for over 15 years, long before starting TRT. however, it's not bothered me, so I've not sought treatment. Lately, I'm noticing some small urine flow issues. Not much, but enough to make me want to research it more. I know I need to get my out of range DHT down, and I'm slowly increasing my saw/pygem supplementation and having some response. I'd like to avoid finasteride if possible.

So the doctor didn't recommend the Finastride or the Dutasteride but I was researching it, looks like both have sexual side effects and was just wondering which of the two would be less. I'm not having a serious problem with urination but my bladder is extremely sensitive to certain medications. Ambien is the worst, it gives me all the symptoms of severe BPH. I found this out a couple of years ago and stay away from it now. Also caffeine and any drink with artificial sweeteners really wrecks havoc on my bladder as well. I was put on Flomax for a short time when I had those previous issues so maybe I'll just consider asking him about that. Mainly I was curious if I took either Finastride or Dutasteride for a short period if it would help reduce the size of my Prostate.

I might just be over thinking this because upon the exam he didn't seem to be to concerned about it other than mentioning it above average size.

[Youthful55guy]

So he told me that the surgery would not be a total fix but he said it would have some helpful benefits, also I have dull ache from time to time there and he said it because of the vericocile.

I told him about starting at the 100mg point but he said for my age that was under dosed and he wanted me to up to 175mg/week. Right not I'm 1 week into TRT and have been injectioning 100mg/week with bi-weekly injections (50mg each injection).

I'm going to hold off on the AI until I get my first blood work in about 4 weeks and see where my E2 levels are and go from there.

Excellent plan!

With all due respect to your doctor, the dose of TRT is not influenced by age unless you have higher than normal SHBG (which often does increase with age). However, that can be determined by testing. It's Free T that we are more concerned with. If SHBG is in the 25 to 40 nmol/L range, 100 to 120mg of T per week should be fine. The best approach is to start low and slowly work your way up every 6 weeks. This will help to avoid the need for E and DHT control. Most guys are paranoid of E and want to jump onto an AI right away. This is a mistake because guys need E too. Without out it, we go limp with a bad case of ED. Always make sure you are getting the correct E test designed for men. Using the standard lab designed for women will always yield a false high result.

[DJMikeT]

Excellent plan!

With all due respect to your doctor, the dose of TRT is not influenced by age unless you have higher than normal SHBG (which often does increase with age). However, that can be determined by testing. It's Free T that we are more concerned with. If SHBG is in the 25 to 40 nmol/L range, 100 to 120mg of T per week should be fine. The best approach is to start low and slowly work your way up every 6 weeks. This will help to avoid the need for E and DHT control. Most guys are paranoid of E and want to jump onto an AI right away. This is a mistake because guys need E too. Without out it, we go limp with a bad case of ED. Always make sure you are getting the correct E test designed for men. Using the standard lab designed for women will always yield a false high result.

Yeah I think I'm going to stay at my current 100 or 125 mg/week and wait for the first blood panel and then like you said adjust accordingly. Definitely going to not use the AI from the start, I've crashed my E2 in the past and it was brutal. I don't want to repeat that mistake.

Also with the vericocile repair I would never be back into a range that would be acceptable. So right now I'm at 202 and if I did get 100 extra from the repair then I'm still at the bottom of the scale.

I think TRT is the best route, my wife is on HRT as well and really wants my libido back....haha

[Youthful55guy]

Yeah I think I'm going to stay at my current 100 or 125 mg/week and wait for the first blood panel and then like you said adjust accordingly. Definitely going to not use the AI from the start, I've crashed my E2 in the past and it was brutal. I don't want to repeat that mistake.

Also with the vericocile repair I would never be back into a range that would be acceptable. So right now I'm at 202 and if I did get 100 extra from the repair then I'm still at the bottom of the scale.

I think TRT is the best route, my wife is on HRT as well and really wants my libido back....haha

God, I hear you with the spouse being on HRT. It was hell the years before we both jumped in. Me jumping into HRT just slightly before her.

You're probably right with the vericocile repair. I've read mixed accounts on it improving T levels. Most agree that it does, but it's not a silver bullet.

Something to consider when evaluating the use of an AI. I find it way too difficult to dose when TRT is done properly. That's because if it is needed at all, it's only to take the edge off. However, the drug is manufactured to treat women with breast cancer and their starting dose is 1mg. Hence the standard 1 mg tablet. But this amount will crush a man's E in a well implemented TRT program. It's very difficult to split the tablet into anything less than 0.5 mg.

My solution is a method I read about in another forum that works VERY WELL for me. It's called the "Vodka method" or sometimes the "Eye Dropper Method". I have a couple of medicine bottles that have tightly capped eyedropper dispenser tops that I use. You might be able to find something similar in the baby section of the drug store. I seem to remember seeing dimethicone drops being dispensed for infants this way to treat symptoms of colic.

I place the 1 mg table in the empty bottle and dissolve it with 1.5 mL of Vodka and then dispense 4 to 5 drops per day into my first glass of drinking water. Through a series of weight difference experiments on a sensitive pan balance, I've determined that 4 drops is about 0.06 mg/day = 0.4 mg/wk. Five drops is closer to 0.5 mg per week. For me, 5 drops brings me down from the upper end of my range to about mid-range.

I'm going to run some new labs in a couple weeks and then decide if I'll back off to 3-4 drops per day. I think there may be some benefit to increasing my E a little, both in erection strength and in GH production. I've found through experience (and a bunch of labs) that my nipples become less responsive to stimuli when I go too low on E. Right now they responsive, but less than I'd like. It's kind of a non-lab barometer to help me determine if new labs are needed for a dose adjustment.

Only make up a 1 mg tablet at a time, as anastrozole is not very shelf stable in an polar solution. I find that at 4-5 drops per day, a single batch will last about 2 weeks.

[DJMikeT]

God, I hear you with the spouse being on HRT. It was hell the years before we both jumped in. Me jumping into HRT just slightly before her.

You're probably right with the vericocile repair. I've read mixed accounts on it improving T levels. Most agree that it does, but it's not a silver bullet.

Something to consider when evaluating the use of an AI. I find it way too difficult to dose when TRT is done properly. That's because if it is needed at all, it's only to take the edge off. However, the drug is manufactured to treat women with breast cancer and their starting dose is 1mg. Hence the standard 1 mg tablet. But this amount will crush a man's E in a well implemented TRT program. It's very difficult to split the tablet into anything less than 0.5 mg.

My solution is a method I read about in another forum that works VERY WELL for me. It's called the "Vodka method" or sometimes the "Eye Dropper Method". I have a couple of medicine bottles that have tightly capped eyedropper dispenser tops that I use. You might be able to find something similar in the baby section of the drug store. I seem to remember seeing dimethicone drops being dispensed for infants this way to treat symptoms of colic.

I place the 1 mg table in the empty bottle and dissolve it with 1.5 mL of Vodka and then dispense 4 to 5 drops per day into my first glass of drinking water. Through a series of weight difference experiments on a sensitive pan balance, I've determined that 4 drops is about 0.06 mg/day = 0.4 mg/wk. Five drops is closer to 0.5 mg per week. For me, 5 drops brings me down from the upper end of my range to about mid-range.

I'm going to run some new labs in a couple weeks and then decide if I'll back off to 3-4 drops per day. I think there may be some benefit to increasing my E a little, both in erection strength and in GH production. I've found through experience (and a bunch of labs) that my nipples become less responsive to stimuli when I go too low on E. Right now they responsive, but less than I'd like. It's kind of a non-lab barometer to help me determine if new labs are needed for a dose adjustment.

Only make up a 1 mg tablet at a time, as anastrozole is not very shelf stable in an polar solution. I find that at 4-5 drops per day, a single batch will last about 2 weeks.

That is some excellent advice on the AI dosing, I never thought about crushing and dissolving into a solution. I agree the 1mg tablets are a PITA to cut into halves or quarters. I think I will try your advice.

One other question I have for you is about the HCG . The pharmacy that is filling it called me today and while speaking with the tech I found out that the doctor prescribed 12000ui vials and she said it said 1500ui weekly for the dosing. I've ran HCG on a previous cycle in the past and only used 500ui a week. Does that seem high to you? 1500ui/week?

[Youthful55guy]

That is some excellent advice on the AI dosing, I never thought about crushing and dissolving into a solution. I agree the 1mg tablets are a PITA to cut into halves or quarters. I think I will try your advice.

One other question I have for you is about the HCG. The pharmacy that is filling it called me today and while speaking with the tech I found out that the doctor prescribed 12000ui vials and she said it said 1500ui weekly for the dosing. I've ran HCG on a previous cycle in the past and only used 500ui a week. Does that seem high to you? 1500ui/week?

She is referring to fertility treatment. Yes, that is way higher than we need for TRT. Most guys dose at around 500 IU per week, I prefer a higher dose for various reasons. I typically run about 1000 IU per week. HCG is the most expensive part of most TRT protocols, but I'm not particularly price sensitive and I believe I derive some additional benefit from the higher dose.

Note that the stuff has a limited shelf life once it is diluted. This also drives my protocol. The lowest amount it come in in the USA is 10,000 IU, which is what my doc prescribed. It has about a 6 week shelf life, but you can stretch that out to about 10 weeks, which is what I do.

[DJMikeT]

She is referring to fertility treatment. Yes, that is way higher than we need for TRT. Most guys dose at around 500 IU per week, I prefer a higher dose for various reasons. I typically run about 1000 IU per week. HCG is the most expensive part of most TRT protocols, but I'm not particularly price sensitive and I believe I derive some additional benefit from the higher dose.

Note that the stuff has a limited shelf life once it is diluted. This also drives my protocol. The lowest amount it come in in the USA is 10,000 IU, which is what my doc prescribed. It has about a 6 week shelf life, but you can stretch that out to about 10 weeks, which is what I do.

I have some 5000ui vials that I ordered from overseas but I figured the stuff from the doctor would be better. The Tech did say that they had 6000ui vials but it was only $20 cheaper so I wouldn't save much going that route.

The overseas stuff is a lot cheaper and the last batch I got seemed to work great but I just feel better about using domestic Rx.

Thanks for all the help with my questions, once again greatly appreciated.

[Mr.BB]

God, I hear you with the spouse being on HRT. It was hell the years before we both jumped in. Me jumping into HRT just slightly before her.

You're probably right with the vericocile repair. I've read mixed accounts on it improving T levels. Most agree that it does, but it's not a silver bullet.

Something to consider when evaluating the use of an AI. I find it way too difficult to dose when TRT is done properly. That's because if it is needed at all, it's only to take the edge off. However, the drug is manufactured to treat women with breast cancer and their starting dose is 1mg. Hence the standard 1 mg tablet. But this amount will crush a man's E in a well implemented TRT program. It's very difficult to split the tablet into anything less than 0.5 mg.

My solution is a method I read about in another forum that works VERY WELL for me. It's called the "Vodka method" or sometimes the "Eye Dropper Method". I have a couple of medicine bottles that have tightly capped eyedropper dispenser tops that I use. You might be able to find something similar in the baby section of the drug store. I seem to remember seeing dimethicone drops being dispensed for infants this way to treat symptoms of colic.

I place the 1 mg table in the empty bottle and dissolve it with 1.5 mL of Vodka and then dispense 4 to 5 drops per day into my first glass of drinking water. Through a series of weight difference experiments on a sensitive pan balance, I've determined that 4 drops is about 0.06 mg/day = 0.4 mg/wk. Five drops is closer to 0.5 mg per week. For me, 5 drops brings me down from the upper end of my range to about mid-range.

I'm going to run some new labs in a couple weeks and then decide if I'll back off to 3-4 drops per day. I think there may be some benefit to increasing my E a little, both in erection strength and in GH production. I've found through experience (and a bunch of labs) that my nipples become less responsive to stimuli when I go too low on E. Right now they responsive, but less than I'd like. It's kind of a non-lab barometer to help me determine if new labs are needed for a dose adjustment.

Only make up a 1 mg tablet at a time, as anastrozole is not very shelf stable in an polar solution. I find that at 4-5 drops per day, a single batch will last about 2 weeks.

Great method, thanks for sharing!

[Youthful55guy]

I have some 5000ui vials that I ordered from overseas but I figured the stuff from the doctor would be better. The Tech did say that they had 6000ui vials but it was only $20 cheaper so I wouldn't save much going that route.

The overseas stuff is a lot cheaper and the last batch I got seemed to work great but I just feel better about using domestic Rx.

Thanks for all the help with my questions, once again greatly appreciated.

I've had good luck too with the overseas stuff in the past. I stick with Pregnyl brand only. Same stuff as is prescribed by my doc. However, I have been shafted twice by one of the big names in the gear business on HCG . I believe they are sending out empty boxes to bogus addresses and then claim to have sent you the product and supply proof of shipping. However, when I investigate the tracking information, both times it cleared by customs, but got lost in delivery. Hence my theory that they did indeed send it (an empty box) but to a bogus address. I can't share who it is hear, but happy to share the name of the supplier by private message. I'm still bitter with their lack of customer complaint follow up. Buyer beware! I have noticed though in the eroids.com ranking of suppliers that they've slipped from #3 to #41 within the past year, so that should tell you something. The two suppliers I switched to for HCG (before my recent script) and for a few other non-prescribed ancillaries (like AI) are in the top 6 and I've had really good luck with them, so I trust the ranking.

So, when you consider the price of the overseas stuff the actual cost for a year's supply is about $500 (includes shipping) compared to $682 from my local pharmacy. Not a huge price difference. Factoring in the cost of being shafted, the pharmacy stuff is actually cheaper and 100% legal. Also, US distributed Pregnyl comes lyophilized in an injection vial, so there's no having to break glass ampules and suck it up with a long needle, which makes it easier and less change of contamination than with the overseas stuff. That's why I stick with it.

The only upside I can see to the overseas tuff is that it comes in smaller 5,000 or 1,500 IU ampules, so you make it fresh more often. Then again, you have no control over shipping conditions, so it may be subjected to heat during transport.

[Couchlockd]

my first doctor wanted to do 1 200 mg shot every month (4 weeks) which ultimately led to me saying fuck that and commencing my first cycle.

[DJMikeT]

So I've been on TRT for 2 weeks now and I'm really feeling a whole lot better. Taking .3ml of 200mg Test C every 3 days and it seems to working well so far. Went back to the doctor a couple of days ago and he said from the previous blood drawl that my Test was already back up 800. However he did not give me any details on stuff like Free Test and Estrogen but did take another blood sample.

I was having some urinary issues and he said it was Prostatitis and gave me some antibiotics and Uroxatral (Alfuzosin) which made a significant difference, I feel back to normal now. Having the vericocile repair done on May 29th because I'm having some pain from it now and hopefully get some extra Test production from that side afterwards. This doctor seems to be pretty good in most aspects but I think I'll take your advice Youthful55guy and use the Private Lab to see what my Free Test and E2 levels are. He asked me if I had started taking the AI yet and I told him I wanted to see what my E2 levels were first. Also the Rx was written for 1mg Anastrozole per day!!! Jeez I would crash the hell out of my E2 and have no libido at all. It really seems to me that the doctors don't take the whole picture in.

Once I get the next blood panel back and hopefully information on Free Test and E2 from him then I will start my HCG . I really think I might have to use the Private Labs for that though because when I mentioned Free Test he looked at me funny. Overall I think I'll be good with this doctor but will have to monitor a few things from my end.

Also found out that I'm going to have to do therapeutic phlebotomy a few times a year because the TRT is thickening up my blood, had no idea that could happen so I'm glad he found that out from the blood work as well.

[Youthful55guy]

So I've been on TRT for 2 weeks now and I'm really feeling a whole lot better. Taking .3ml of 200mg Test C every 3 days and it seems to working well so far. Went back to the doctor a couple of days ago and he said from the previous blood drawl that my Test was already back up 800. However he did not give me any details on stuff like Free Test and Estrogen but did take another blood sample.

I was having some urinary issues and he said it was Prostatitis and gave me some antibiotics and Uroxatral (Alfuzosin) which made a significant difference, I feel back to normal now. Having the vericocile repair done on May 29th because I'm having some pain from it now and hopefully get some extra Test production from that side afterwards. This doctor seems to be pretty good in most aspects but I think I'll take your advice Youthful55guy and use the Private Lab to see what my Free Test and E2 levels are. He asked me if I had started taking the AI yet and I told him I wanted to see what my E2 levels were first. Also the Rx was written for 1mg Anastrozole per day!!! Jeez I would crash the hell out of my E2 and have no libido at all. It really seems to me that the doctors don't take the whole picture in.

Once I get the next blood panel back and hopefully information on Free Test and E2 from him then I will start my HCG . I really think I might have to use the Private Labs for that though because when I mentioned Free Test he looked at me funny. Overall I think I'll be good with this doctor but will have to monitor a few things from my end.

Also found out that I'm going to have to do therapeutic phlebotomy a few times a year because the TRT is thickening up my blood, had no idea that could happen so I'm glad he found that out from the blood work as well.

Good approach, but you are starting at the upper end of what most guys need. You 0.3 mL of 200 mg/mL T-cyp E3D equates to about 140 mg per week. I generally recommend starting at 100 mg/week, test at 6 weeks, and then if the labs indicate, bump it up to about 120 mg/week. After 6 more weeks, repeat the testing and if the labs indicate bump it up to 140 mg/wk.

I suspect that at 140 mg you will find that your E is going to go out of range and you will probably need an AI to take the edge off. I'm guessing that you'll need around 0.5 to 0.75 mg per week of anastrozole, which is about 5 to 7 drops per day using my Vodka/Eye Dropper method.

Same goes for high hemoglobin. This is the most common side-effect of TRT, especially at the higher doses like you are using. T converts to DHT and DHT drives hemoglobin production. Keeping DHT under control can help, but at that high level, you are going to have to donate blood. I usually recommend that you start with standard donations without a script for a therapeutic phlebotomy because once you get on thier list for needing this, they will have records forever. At this time, they allow donations from guys with high hemoglobin due to TRT, but that's new and could change in the future. Then you are stuck with having to pay someone to draw your blood and dump it down the drain.

Your best approach is to start with the minimum amount of T you need to keep you in range. if you do this, your hemoglobin will typically be at the top end of the range, but be controllable with standard blood donations every 8 weeks (the maximum allowed by FDA). If your do this, then you can truthfully answer their last screening question. "Has a doctor told you need to donate blood because you are taking testosterone therapy ". The key word here is "told". Since I have never gone out of range, but always run at the high end of the range, my doc "suggested" that I might want to consider putting that blood to good use with donations. There's a difference between being told and having it suggested. I equate a script for a therapeutic phlebotomy as being "told".

[DJMikeT]

Good approach, but you are starting at the upper end of what most guys need. You 0.3 mL of 200 mg/mL T-cyp E3D equates to about 140 mg per week. I generally recommend starting at 100 mg/week, test at 6 weeks, and then if the labs indicate, bump it up to about 120 mg/week. After 6 more weeks, repeat the testing and if the labs indicate bump it up to 140 mg/wk.

I suspect that at 140 mg you will find that your E is going to go out of range and you will probably need an AI to take the edge off. I'm guessing that you'll need around 0.5 to 0.75 mg per week of anastrozole, which is about 5 to 7 drops per day using my Vodka/Eye Dropper method.

Same goes for high hemoglobin. This is the most common side-effect of TRT, especially at the higher doses like you are using. T converts to DHT and DHT drives hemoglobin production. Keeping DHT under control can help, but at that high level, you are going to have to donate blood. I usually recommend that you start with standard donations without a script for a therapeutic phlebotomy because once you get on thier list for needing this, they will have records forever. At this time, they allow donations from guys with high hemoglobin due to TRT, but that's new and could change in the future. Then you are stuck with having to pay someone to draw your blood and dump it down the drain.

Your best approach is to start with the minimum amount of T you need to keep you in range. if you do this, your hemoglobin will typically be at the top end of the range, but be controllable with standard blood donations every 8 weeks (the maximum allowed by FDA). If your do this, then you can truthfully answer their last screening question. "Has a doctor told you need to donate blood because you are taking testosterone therapy". The key word here is "told". Since I have never gone out of range, but always run at the high end of the range, my doc "suggested" that I might want to consider putting that blood to good use with donations. There's a difference between being told and having it suggested. I equate a script for a therapeutic phlebotomy as being "told".

So my Doctor "told me" and sent in an order to the blood collection place. From the information they gave me it says "There will be no charge of therapeutic phlebotomy for patients whose orders state a diagnosis of hereditary hemochromatosis or secondary polycythemia due to TRT replacement."
Hopefully like you stated it stays that way because otherwise there's a $150 charge for it.

Also one question about the link you posted above for the discount labs on the E2 test. That's just for E2 correct, so for Free Test and Test levels I'd have to get a separate blood panel or is that an all in one panel. The information on the site was limited that's why I'm asking.

Thanks again Youthful55guy for all your help, it's truly appreciated!

[Youthful55guy]

So my Doctor "told me" and sent in an order to the blood collection place. From the information they gave me it says "There will be no charge of therapeutic phlebotomy for patients whose orders state a diagnosis of hereditary hemochromatosis or secondary polycythemia due to TRT replacement."
Hopefully like you stated it stays that way because otherwise there's a $150 charge for it.

Also one question about the link you posted above for the discount labs on the E2 test. That's just for E2 correct, so for Free Test and Test levels I'd have to get a separate blood panel or is that an all in one panel. The information on the site was limited that's why I'm asking.

Thanks again Youthful55guy for all your help, it's truly appreciated!

they have a huge number of labs that they offer. Some individuals and some in panels. I don't remember the specific link I posted (probably directly to the E test). You have to back out to the home page and go to the Testosterone Replacement Page to find all of the tests. Start here on the Choose A Test tab: https://www.discountedlabs.com/.

[DJMikeT]

Hey Youthful55guy,

Got my latest blood work results and they are as follows.

TEST - 904 NG/DL
CALC FREE TEST - 170.5 PG/ML
SEX HORMONE BINDING - 47.1 NMOL/L
ESTRADIOL - 17 PG/ML
IGF-1 SOMATOMEDIN-C - 96 NG/ML

My Free Test is within range according to this lab which says the standard ranges are 47.0 - 244.0 PG/ML

This is different from the levels you mentioned above but you did say it varied from lab to lab.

My Estrogen levels look good and I feel great, no bloating or massive water retention or nipple sensitivity. Also my libido is through the roof again. I don't see any reason to take Arimidex unless those levels change.

Also just started the HCG this week, so that may have some impact. I'm not sure about the Sex Hormone Binding or the IGF-1 results but they are within range.

How do these results look in your opinion?

[DJMikeT]

Also my Hematocrit level was 48.8 and when I went in to give blood the other day it was 46 so I guess that's a good thing. The nurse drawing blood said that 44 was the lowest my doctor wanted me to be and I'm already close to that.

[Chrisp83TRT]

Here dude , here’s the TRT panel

https://www.discountedlabs.com/trt-m...p-panel-option

[DJMikeT]

Here dude , here’s the TRT panel

https://www.discountedlabs.com/trt-m...p-panel-option

Why would I want to do that, I just had blood drawn at my doctor's office on May 3rd and can see the results online. That's just extra money to spend. That's a $189 panel when I can get for next to nothing using my insurance.

[Chrisp83TRT]

Why would I want to do that, I just had blood drawn at my doctor's office on May 3rd and can see the results online. That's just extra money to spend. That's a $189 panel when I can get for next to nothing using my insurance.

No need for attitude As I was only trying to help. As far as I’ve read, you wanted to go get tests without your doctor. So I linked it. No biggie. Have a good weekend

[DJMikeT]

No need for attitude As I was only trying to help. As far as I’ve read, you wanted to go get tests without your doctor. So I linked it. No biggie. Have a good weekend

I don't understand why you would think I'm having attitude because that's not the case. I simply just didn't understand why you posted that link when I had just posted my results in the post before yours. I do appreciate you taking the time to help, maybe you didn't see the prior post? In any case I was not trying to have any attitude towards you, if that's how it came across then I apologize.

I was asking about other Labs just in case my doctor didn't order the right tests but he did so looks like I won't need to use a private lab unless something changes. Anyway, thanks for the input.

[Chrisp83TRT]

I don't understand why you would think I'm having attitude because that's not the case. I simply just didn't understand why you posted that link when I had just posted my results in the post before yours. I do appreciate you taking the time to help, maybe you didn't see the prior post? In any case I was not trying to have any attitude towards you, if that's how it came across then I apologize.

I was asking about other Labs just in case my doctor didn't order the right tests but he did so looks like I won't need to use a private lab unless something changes. Anyway, thanks for the input.

There was definitely a misunderstanding and I also apologize for jumping to conclusions. I didn’t see your blood work posted. I’m actually happy you have your insurance covering it. Labs cost a fortune, especially over time . So glad for you dude.

[DJMikeT]

There was definitely a misunderstanding and I also apologize for jumping to conclusions. I didn’t see your blood work posted. I’m actually happy you have your insurance covering it. Labs cost a fortune, especially over time . So glad for you dude.

It's all good bro, just a simple misunderstanding. Yeah I'm glad my insurance is covering this as well and thank you for being happy for me. I couldn't believe it when I had my first 10ml vial of Test C filled and it was only $14. Definitely a pro to have good insurance with TRT because as you stated it would add up to a lot over time.

[Youthful55guy]

Hey Youthful55guy,

Got my latest blood work results and they are as follows.

TEST - 904 NG/DL
CALC FREE TEST - 170.5 PG/ML
SEX HORMONE BINDING - 47.1 NMOL/L
ESTRADIOL - 17 PG/ML
IGF-1 SOMATOMEDIN-C - 96 NG/ML

My Free Test is within range according to this lab which says the standard ranges are 47.0 - 244.0 PG/ML

This is different from the levels you mentioned above but you did say it varied from lab to lab.

My Estrogen levels look good and I feel great, no bloating or massive water retention or nipple sensitivity. Also my libido is through the roof again. I don't see any reason to take Arimidex unless those levels change.

Also just started the HCG this week, so that may have some impact. I'm not sure about the Sex Hormone Binding or the IGF-1 results but they are within range.

How do these results look in your opinion?

It's difficult to comment without 'normal' ranges for each of the tests. You did provide the range for Free T and that's in the upper 87th percentile of your normal range but still in range, which is good. That is, assuming these are nadir values (taken just prior to the next scheduled injection).

Just as an example of why you must have ranges for the lab where you got the results, my lab (LabCorp) using the direct Free T test method has a normal range of 7.2 to 24 pg/mL (for my age group). If you applied my range to your lab's results, you would be so far out of range you'd be in the anabolic steroid misuse category, but of course we know you're not.

[Youthful55guy]

Also my Hematocrit level was 48.8 and when I went in to give blood the other day it was 46 so I guess that's a good thing. The nurse drawing blood said that 44 was the lowest my doctor wanted me to be and I'm already close to that.

Hematocrit and hemoglobin results don't vary as much from lab to lab as hormones do. This is due to standardization in the test method. A level of 48.8 is good. The LabCorp range is 37.5 - 51.0 my doc's lab (Pacific Diagnostic) has a normal range of 39-51. I don't understand why your doc's nurse thinks 44 is bad. I'd actually consider that good. High hematocrit/hemoglobin is often the most limiting side-effect of TRT. It is VER IMPORTANT not to let it go out of range due to risk of a life-threatening cardiovascular or cerebrovascular event.

[Youthful55guy]

It's all good bro, just a simple misunderstanding. Yeah I'm glad my insurance is covering this as well and thank you for being happy for me. I couldn't believe it when I had my first 10ml vial of Test C filled and it was only $14. Definitely a pro to have good insurance with TRT because as you stated it would add up to a lot over time.

Yes, having insurance coverage of labs is good, but I think it's also a good idea to have a source to get them done yourself. I see my PCP only once per year and I like to have labs done more often than that when I tinker with nuances of my TRT protocol that I either don't want to bother discussing with my doc or don't want her to know. The link Chrisp provided was to a full male follow up panel, but if you back out to their home page from that link, you will see that they provide lots of individual and combined panels. Usually the cost per test is lower with the panels, but then again you sometimes pay for more information than you need to evaluate your current situation.

For example, earlier this week, I had a lab draw to evaluate the effect of lowering my T-dose combined with increasing my Saw palmetto & Pygeum supplementation on lowering my high DHT. I could have ordered just a DHT lab ($87.10), but instead, I ordered the ED panel ($204.75) which also gives me Total and Free T, Prolactin, E, and a complete thyroid panel. The only one I didn't need was prolactin, but it just came along for the ride. The overall cost per test was much lower than ordering them independently. I don't want to ask my doc to run these labs independent of my annual follow up visit because I don't want her to know I'm tinkering with the protocol, particularly adding low dose Stanozolol to lower SHBG.

[DJMikeT]

It's difficult to comment without 'normal' ranges for each of the tests. You did provide the range for Free T and that's in the upper 87th percentile of your normal range but still in range, which is good. That is, assuming these are nadir values (taken just prior to the next scheduled injection).

Just as an example of why you must have ranges for the lab where you got the results, my lab (LabCorp) using the direct Free T test method has a normal range of 7.2 to 24 pg/mL (for my age group). If you applied my range to your lab's results, you would be so far out of range you'd be in the anabolic steroid misuse category, but of course we know you're not.

Here's the results with the ranges added.

IGF-1 Somatomedin-C - 96 NG/ML Standard Range is 55-168 NG/ML

Testosterone - 904 NG/DL Standard Range is 300-890 NG/DL

Sex Hormone Globulin - 47.1 NMOL/L Standard Range is 16.5-55.9 NMOL/L

Calc Free Test - 170.5 PG/ML Standard Range is 47-244.0 PG/ML

Estradiol Level - <17 PG/ML Standard Range is <=60.7 PG/ML

Clinical Pathology Labs is the Lab running the tests for my doctor.

I agree that with LabCorps ranges I would be way out of range on the free test. Seems like this Lab uses a different scale on the ranges.

Looks like my total Test is just over the top of the scale and that's with me using less than the dosage my doctor recommended. I feel really good where I am at right now, in your opinion should I maintain what I have or make an adjustment??

[Chrisp83TRT]

It's all good bro, just a simple misunderstanding. Yeah I'm glad my insurance is covering this as well and thank you for being happy for me. I couldn't believe it when I had my first 10ml vial of Test C filled and it was only $14. Definitely a pro to have good insurance with TRT because as you stated it would add up to a lot over time.

Yeah dude!! I’m paying 120 a pop for around 2-3 months worth of Test Cyp from my low t doctor, so 14 dollars?!? Hell yeah man! Super happy for you.
And I think my emotions are all out of wack... my e2 was pretty high and have been anxious and super emo lately haha. Glad your labs are looking good man.

[Youthful55guy]

Looks like my total Test is just over the top of the scale and that's with me using less than the dosage my doctor recommended. I feel really good where I am at right now, in your opinion should I maintain what I have or make an adjustment??

IGF-1 Somatomedin-C - 96 NG/ML Standard Range is 55-168 NG/ML
Not great but not bad either. I can't recall from this long thread, are you using an AI? I'm not sure if that's the right E test. Most male sensitive labs are designed with an upper range of around 40 pg/mL. You need sufficient E to make GH and that in turn drives IGF-1 levels. Low E = Low GH = Low IGF-1.

Testosterone - 904 NG/DL Standard Range is 300-890 NG/DL
On the high side, probably because your SHBG is on the high side (but not out of range). SHBG binds T and protects it from liver metabolism, so it drives Total T up, even though Free T suffers. Only Free T crosses the blood brain barrier to 'make you feel normal'. However, I definitely would not consider a dose increase. Even though the T is bound to SHBG, it still has peripheral effects such as raising hemoglobin levels.

Sex Hormone Globulin - 47.1 NMOL/L Standard Range is 16.5-55.9 NMOL/L
On the high side but not out of range. You may benefit from lowering it slightly. This will have a net effect of lowering your Total T and raising your Free T. You may actually be able to lower your T dose by lowering your SHBG slightly. You do not want to go too low, because then you will metabolize T too quickly and your Free T will drop like a rock. It's a delicate balance. I would shoot for about 30 to 35 nmol/L with your test range. The difficulty here is that you need either a very open minded doc to get the drugs prescribed, or go off the reservation and obtain them through alternate channels (my approach). There are basically 3 choices in the USA for prescription drugs: Anavar (Oxandrolone), Danazol (Danocrine), and Proviron . In the EU and elsewhere you also have the choice of Winstrol (Oral Stanozolol ). I only have experience with Anavar and Winstrol, and both are EXTREMELY effective at very low dosages so there are minimal side-effects. With Anavar, I've found that 5mg 2X per day is optimal for me. For Winstrol, the dose is lower at 5mg 2X per day. I recommend 2X per day dosing because they both have very short half lives. Winstrol is much less expensive than Anavar, so there is less counterfeiting if you obtain it through alternate channels. I do not have personal experience with Danazol, but I did see two posts where guys found it effective at 20-30 mg per day. It is about as expensive as Anavar, so I see no real reason to use it unless you can get it prescribed and covered by insurance (not likely). There is very little information out there in Proviron and the stuff that's out there is mixed information.

Calc Free Test - 170.5 PG/ML Standard Range is 47-244.0 PG/ML
About perfect. I see no reason to increase your dose. If anything, consider lowering your dose by lowering SHBG. See above discussion.

Estradiol Level - <17 PG/ML Standard Range is <=60.7 PG/ML
I question whether this is the correct lab. I'd consider getting it done myself with the best lab out there for guys for about $53 + $6 lab fee (https://www.discountedlabs.com/estra...itive-lc-ms-ms).

[DJMikeT]

IGF-1 Somatomedin-C - 96 NG/ML Standard Range is 55-168 NG/ML
Not great but not bad either. I can't recall from this long thread, are you using an AI? I'm not sure if that's the right E test. Most male sensitive labs are designed with an upper range of around 40 pg/mL. You need sufficient E to make GH and that in turn drives IGF-1 levels. Low E = Low GH = Low IGF-1.

Testosterone - 904 NG/DL Standard Range is 300-890 NG/DL
On the high side, probably because your SHBG is on the high side (but not out of range). SHBG binds T and protects it from liver metabolism, so it drives Total T up, even though Free T suffers. Only Free T crosses the blood brain barrier to 'make you feel normal'. However, I definitely would not consider a dose increase. Even though the T is bound to SHBG, it still has peripheral effects such as raising hemoglobin levels.

Sex Hormone Globulin - 47.1 NMOL/L Standard Range is 16.5-55.9 NMOL/L
On the high side but not out of range. You may benefit from lowering it slightly. This will have a net effect of lowering your Total T and raising your Free T. You may actually be able to lower your T dose by lowering your SHBG slightly. You do not want to go too low, because then you will metabolize T too quickly and your Free T will drop like a rock. It's a delicate balance. I would shoot for about 30 to 35 nmol/L with your test range. The difficulty here is that you need either a very open minded doc to get the drugs prescribed, or go off the reservation and obtain them through alternate channels (my approach). There are basically 3 choices in the USA for prescription drugs: Anavar (Oxandrolone), Danazol (Danocrine), and Proviron . In the EU and elsewhere you also have the choice of Winstrol (Oral Stanozolol ). I only have experience with Anavar and Winstrol, and both are EXTREMELY effective at very low dosages so there are minimal side-effects. With Anavar, I've found that 5mg 2X per day is optimal for me. For Winstrol, the dose is lower at 5mg 2X per day. I recommend 2X per day dosing because they both have very short half lives. Winstrol is much less expensive than Anavar, so there is less counterfeiting if you obtain it through alternate channels. I do not have personal experience with Danazol, but I did see two posts where guys found it effective at 20-30 mg per day. It is about as expensive as Anavar, so I see no real reason to use it unless you can get it prescribed and covered by insurance (not likely). There is very little information out there in Proviron and the stuff that's out there is mixed information.

Calc Free Test - 170.5 PG/ML Standard Range is 47-244.0 PG/ML
About perfect. I see no reason to increase your dose. If anything, consider lowering your dose by lowering SHBG. See above discussion.

Estradiol Level - <17 PG/ML Standard Range is <=60.7 PG/ML
I question whether this is the correct lab. I'd consider getting it done myself with the best lab out there for guys for about $53 + $6 lab fee (https://www.discountedlabs.com/estra...itive-lc-ms-ms).

Once again great advice, I actually have Anavar on hand because my wife is using it to get her back stronger. I tested it and it's legit. I agree with you and wasn't even considering raising my dosage but was considering cutting back to .25mg every 3 days instead of the .30mg that I'm currently dosing. I'm thinking since I started the HCG that my Test will rise slightly anyway.

Not taking any AI at this time, to answer your question.

Might be a good idea to get another panel using the private lab for my E2, but I've had both high and low E2 in the past and to be honest I feel really great at the moment. However, still something to consider.

I appreciate all your detailed answers to my questions, you've been a great help and I can only hope to help someone in the future the way you have been helping me.

[DJMikeT]

Yeah dude!! I’m paying 120 a pop for around 2-3 months worth of Test Cyp from my low t doctor, so 14 dollars?!? Hell yeah man! Super happy for you.
And I think my emotions are all out of wack... my e2 was pretty high and have been anxious and super emo lately haha. Glad your labs are looking good man.

I feel you on the E2 levels, I've had mine out of whack in the past and can totally relate to that.

[DJMikeT]

Sex Hormone Globulin - 47.1 NMOL/L Standard Range is 16.5-55.9 NMOL/L
On the high side but not out of range. You may benefit from lowering it slightly. This will have a net effect of lowering your Total T and raising your Free T. You may actually be able to lower your T dose by lowering your SHBG slightly. You do not want to go too low, because then you will metabolize T too quickly and your Free T will drop like a rock. It's a delicate balance. I would shoot for about 30 to 35 nmol/L with your test range. The difficulty here is that you need either a very open minded doc to get the drugs prescribed, or go off the reservation and obtain them through alternate channels (my approach). There are basically 3 choices in the USA for prescription drugs: Anavar (Oxandrolone), Danazol (Danocrine), and Proviron . In the EU and elsewhere you also have the choice of Winstrol (Oral Stanozolol ). I only have experience with Anavar and Winstrol, and both are EXTREMELY effective at very low dosages so there are minimal side-effects. With Anavar, I've found that 5mg 2X per day is optimal for me. For Winstrol, the dose is lower at 5mg 2X per day. I recommend 2X per day dosing because they both have very short half lives. Winstrol is much less expensive than Anavar, so there is less counterfeiting if you obtain it through alternate channels. I do not have personal experience with Danazol, but I did see two posts where guys found it effective at 20-30 mg per day. It is about as expensive as Anavar, so I see no real reason to use it unless you can get it prescribed and covered by insurance (not likely). There is very little information out there in Proviron and the stuff that's out there is mixed information.

Do you stay on the low dose Anavar or Winstrol indefinitely or do you cycle it?

[Youthful55guy]

Do you stay on the low dose Anavar or Winstrol indefinitely or do you cycle it?

I do not use Anavar . I only tried an experiment to see if it worked for me. I read a recent paper on a very large RCT study that use of Anavar with HIV patients. I noted in their bloodwork tables that SHBG came down in a dose-response fashion to the amount of Anavar they used. They also discussed this in the paper. This lead me to try the experiment. I found it quite effective and through a series of labs, nailed down my personal dose at around 5mg 2X per dat to keep my SHBG where I wanted it.

I do use Winstrol regularly. Like the Anavar, my 2.5mg 2X dose took several labs to nail down. There is no need to cycle at this low dose, as liver labs stay in range. I monitor liver labs several times per year. We were a bit perplexed about them going out of range for a while. My doc ran every test imaginable. Finally, we decided to repeat the labs after taking a month off of Naproxen (but I still took my Winstrol). The liver labs fell back into the normal range in that test, so we are pretty confident we know the cause. I was (still am) taking Naproxen daily for elbow pain after left triceps reconstruction surgery 10 months ago. I tore it off the bone in a motor scooter accident. I now have the Naproxen down to once per day and some days none.