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  1. #1
    Windex is offline Staff ~ HRT Optimization Specialist
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    TRT, Pinning, Scar Tissue

    So after seeing

    SteroidGraph - Graph your cycle

    (Thanks charger !!)

    I got pretty excited seeing a beautiful flat graph from pinning every day. However, if I only have 6 or 7 injection sites, would I want to be considered about scar tissue? Pinning twice a week has always meant each injection site has always had a 1 week break. For reference, these are the 6 sites I currently use

    - Left Outer Quad
    - Left Inner Quad
    - Right Outer Quad
    - Right Inner Quad
    - Left Calf
    - Right Calf


    I've always avoided pinning delts because I have been working on my half sleeves on each arm so have always been in the process of healing the ink. Glutes are no beuno for me as well.

    Thanks in advance for the help.

  2. #2
    kelkel's Avatar
    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    I don't think you have anything to worry about with that many spots to inject. Most are lucky to have half of that.
    Why are glutes no good? You don't have to go all the way around, it's basically a hip shot just behind the hip flexor. Just stand in front of a mirror, you'll be fine.
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  3. #3
    Couchlockd's Avatar
    Couchlockd is offline Senior Member
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    Kel, don't we want a little flux in levels to mimic how our body releases test naturally?

    A straight flat graph is not natural?

    Is trt better to be flat perfect even release of hormones, or would a bit of flux be better suited to health?

  4. #4
    Couchlockd's Avatar
    Couchlockd is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windex View Post
    So after seeing

    SteroidGraph - Graph your cycle

    (Thanks charger !!)

    I got pretty excited seeing a beautiful flat graph from pinning every day. However, if I only have 6 or 7 injection sites, would I want to be considered about scar tissue? Pinning twice a week has always meant each injection site has always had a 1 week break. For reference, these are the 6 sites I currently use

    - Left Outer Quad
    - Left Inner Quad
    - Right Outer Quad
    - Right Inner Quad
    - Left Calf
    - Right Calf


    I've always avoided pinning delts because I have been working on my half sleeves on each arm so have always been in the process of healing the ink. Glutes are no beuno for me as well.

    Thanks in advance for the help.
    Biceps work good Delta work good.

    If your able to bear calf injections any other spot is a walk in the park

  5. #5
    Youthful55guy is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windex View Post
    Cool site! Thanks for the link!! I've been looking for something like this for a long time. I made some attempts myself to plot out the same stuff using similar half life decay formulas in Excel. I had some moderate success, but the spreadsheets got hugely complicated and took hours to make compared to getting the same information here in seconds.

    It even factors in the different rations of T and ester in the release calculation. Different esters have different molecular weight ratios of T:Ester. So the graphs it produces are actual mg of T released per day. Exactly what I've been looking for! The average male produces about 7 mg of molecular T per day (i.e., without the ester), so replicating that is what we strive to approximate in a well designed TRT program. I personally go for a little more on the average. The following graph plots out my prescribed dose of T. It's 0.2 mL of a 180/20 mg/mL T-Cyp/T-Prop blended T. It shows that once stable levels have been achieved in about 6 weeks, this dosage and schedule releases between 13 mg and 7.5 mg per day, averaging about 10 mg/day. When I control my SHBG levels to a target of about 35 nmol/L, this results in about 800 to 850 ng/dL Total T and about 24 to 25 pg/mL Free T, which puts me at about the 90th percentile for a 30 to 40 year old guy.
    TRT, Pinning, Scar Tissue-daily-t-release-graph-prescribed-t.png

  6. #6
    Windex is offline Staff ~ HRT Optimization Specialist
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    I don't think you have anything to worry about with that many spots to inject. Most are lucky to have half of that.
    Why are glutes no good? You don't have to go all the way around, it's basically a hip shot just behind the hip flexor. Just stand in front of a mirror, you'll be fine.
    Just to clarify if I inject each of those spots every single week I shouldn't be concerned about scar tissue?

  7. #7
    Windex is offline Staff ~ HRT Optimization Specialist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Cool site! Thanks for the link!! I've been looking for something like this for a long time. I made some attempts myself to plot out the same stuff using similar half life decay formulas in Excel. I had some moderate success, but the spreadsheets got hugely complicated and took hours to make compared to getting the same information here in seconds.

    It even factors in the different rations of T and ester in the release calculation. Different esters have different molecular weight ratios of T:Ester. So the graphs it produces are actual mg of T released per day. Exactly what I've been looking for! The average male produces about 7 mg of molecular T per day (i.e., without the ester), so replicating that is what we strive to approximate in a well designed TRT program. I personally go for a little more on the average. The following graph plots out my prescribed dose of T. It's 0.2 mL of a 180/20 mg/mL T-Cyp/T-Prop blended T. It shows that once stable levels have been achieved in about 6 weeks, this dosage and schedule releases between 13 mg and 7.5 mg per day, averaging about 10 mg/day. When I control my SHBG levels to a target of about 35 nmol/L, this results in about 800 to 850 ng/dL Total T and about 24 to 25 pg/mL Free T, which puts me at about the 90th percentile for a 30 to 40 year old guy.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Daily T Release Graph with Prescribed T.PNG 
Views:	78 
Size:	54.9 KB 
ID:	173411
    Credit goes to Charger he posted the link in another thread.

  8. #8
    kelkel's Avatar
    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couchlockd View Post
    Kel, don't we want a little flux in levels to mimic how our body releases test naturally?

    A straight flat graph is not natural?

    Is trt better to be flat perfect even release of hormones, or would a bit of flux be better suited to health?

    Only real way to mimic natural production would be gels which come the closest to natural diurnal production. Other than that, trying to manipulate highs and lows would be a nightmare, even with short esters. Especially when it comes to managing estrogen / ancillaries, etc.. Nothing wrong with maintaining somewhat steady levels. They will never actually be linear as there will always be highs and lows, just to a lesser extent.
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  9. #9
    Youthful55guy is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Only real way to mimic natural production would be gels which come the closest to natural diurnal production. Other than that, trying to manipulate highs and lows would be a nightmare, even with short esters. Especially when it comes to managing estrogen / ancillaries, etc.. Nothing wrong with maintaining somewhat steady levels. They will never actually be linear as there will always be highs and lows, just to a lesser extent.
    Agree. Trying to mimic natural patterns is unrealistic with esters.

    If I call correctly from reproductive endocrinology 101, the majority of our daily T is produced during REM sleep. This is why baseline T levels are usually checked first thing in the morning when it is highest. I believe that over half of our T is produced between midnight and waking, when REM is most active. In fact, studies show that guys who get 8 hours of sleep have about double the total T of guys who only get 4 hours.

    Yes, you could probably screw around with injecting short esters just prior to bed, but why? There is no information that I know of that this diurnal pattern of T is necessary for normal physiological function. Also for guys, with low SHBG, it is probably better to space the release out with longer ester. It probably doesn't make much of a difference for guys with high SHBG. It all gets sucked up by the protein and it's release is determined by the protein.

  10. #10
    Couchlockd's Avatar
    Couchlockd is offline Senior Member
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    What I mean is if I took 150mg of prop and split it up evenly with every day injections, it would be no better or worse than 75mg of C or E e3.5d?

  11. #11
    Youthful55guy is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couchlockd View Post
    What I mean is if I took 150mg of prop and split it up evenly with every day injections, it would be no better or worse than 75mg of C or E e3.5d?
    That's a lot of T. More than twice you need. See the graph below.
    TRT, Pinning, Scar Tissue-150-mg-t-prop-weekly-split-into-daily-doses.png

    In theory, if you did half that amount (~ 11mg per day), and injected at night before bed, you would come closer to mimicking natural secretion. See the graph below.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	150 mg T-Prop Weekly split into daily doses.PNG 
Views:	39 
Size:	50.5 KB 
ID:	173435

    However, be aware that T-Prop cause residual pain and much more tissue damage than T-cyp, and the effect is cumulative. You will begin to see bruising after about a week at the injection sites. T-prop, in my experience, is just not appropriate for SC injections and needs to be kept to much lower doses IM.

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