Can low E cause *debilitating* pain in ALL your muscles?

[forrest_and_trees]

About 6-7 years ago, on rare occasions, I started experiencing debilitating pain and in my muscles after nights of heavy drinking. At first it was pretty rare, but over time it began happening more and more, until it happened almost every time I drank, so I finally quit drinking last year. But recently, it's started to happen again, even though I'm not drinking.

It always happens after sleeping. I wake up in the middle of the night and can barely move. As long as I stayed still I'm OK, but the moment I try to move a muscle, stand up, or even rolling over in bed, I get shooting pains in my muscles. At times it's so bad it can take me 10-15 mins of fighting the pain just to get up. At first it would pass as the day went on, but over the years it's lasted longer, to the point it could take up to 8 days to completely pass; gradually getting better as each do goes by.

Originally I thought it might have been alcohol related nephropathy, so I started seeing a neurologist, but he can't find anything wrong. At one point I even thought it might be lactic acid build up and tried drinking a large glasses of water with baking soda as a neutralizer. I've taken supplements including potassium, magnesium, zinc, super B complex. Even B12 shots every other week from my new PCP for the past 6 months. I recently started taking B1 [thiamine] at the suggestion of my neurologist.

I thought things were getting better thanks to the B12 then two weeks ago it happened again. At the time I'd gone a month without a B12 shot, and I thought it might have been a combination of that and eating too much sugar the day before, but the neurologist says no. Then last Thursday I got another B12 shot, and Friday I woke up in pain, but it wasn't too bad; about 5 on a scale of 1-10. I felt better by Saturday. Sunday morning I woke up early feeling fine, then I fell back to sleep on the couch for about 45 mins, but when woke up I was in total pain at a full on 10. It took me 10 mins of fighting the pain just to get up off the couch. By late in the day the pain had dropped to a 6. Monday was 4 and today a 2.

I've been pinning 100mg [.5ml] test cyp every 3.5 days for almost 11 years. The first couple years my T levels were around 1000; then it jumped up to 1200 and eventually 1400 where it stayed for the next 6 years. I'd tried several times to lower the dose, but always had a bad reaction, but since all my other numbers like liver and kidney function, etc. were good, my *old* PCP didn't seem too worry about the T levels. Then 10 months ago I finally started seeing an endo and he had me spread my T shots out to every 5 days, and again I had a bad reaction, so I went back to 3.5. Four months ago he put me on low dose HGH; a month later my T levels jumped to 2300, but he says it can't be from the HGH because my GH numbers are still too low... Go figure. So he put me back to every 5 days and this time I responded better, but my most recent lab work from last month had my T levels 1500. So now he's got me down to 100mg every 6 days. Now I'm wondering I haven't lowered my AI dose enough compensate and that's what's causing the muscle pain.

I've been on 1mg a day of Anastrozol for about 10 years. Yes... I know that's a lot... but I'd always had high E levels. After starting T for HRT, before I began using an AI, my E levels were 135. At 1mg a day my E levels have stayed around 5 with no problems. If I took less than 1mg a day I'd start getting puffy nipples and moody within a day. After switching my T shots to every 5 days, I began taking only .5mg of AI the day before my shot and none on the day; I've done the same since switching to every 6 day, so technically I'm 1 more mg of AI a week. I've mentioned my E levels to the endo but he isn't concerned about it and hasn't tested for it. [I'm tempted to get my E tested on my own through one of the online test sites.]

So what are your thoughts? Can low E cause that much pain? Has this happened to anyone else? FWIW I haven't taken an AI for 4 days and I plnned last night, but so far not puffy nipples or moodiness.

Thanks for your input.

[kelkel]

What exactly are the bad reactions whenever you change protocols? Could they just be psychological more than physical?
1 mg per day is huge and as you probably know, not needed. Most don't really need an AI as long as they adjust their dose down to avoid it and base their numbers on free T and not total T. Total T is irrelevant. Just keep free T in the upper quartile.

You mentioned taking less than one mg per day and then getting puffy nips and moody. Sure this can happen. Just remember sensitivity (puffy nips etc) are not abnormal when dosing is changed and sensitivity is not an indicator of gyno, just that hormones are in flux. Your doctor is remiss to not routinely gauge your estrogen with a sensitive assay. So to directly answer your question regarding joint / muscle pain, yes low E can cause both.

I'd strongly recommend coming off of adex . Consider dropping your T dose down at the same time to mitigate for the lack of AI at the same time. Maybe 75 x 2 or so then retest in a month for E2 Sensitive and Free T. You'll be healthier without the AI and your joints / muscles will feel better. You'll make better gains with higher E as well as have a better libido. I always keep my E slightly above scale as I feel best that way.

Hope this helps.

kel

[forrest_and_trees]

Thanks kelkel. I hope your right, because this sure as s**t ain't fun. I'm on day 6 of no AI and not feeling any drawbacks, so that's good. I'm thinking the HGH is likely helping there. I suppose only time will tell.

As far as my reactions to dialing back the T in the past, I'd starting feeling weak, depressed, loss of libido, I'd loose interest in doing anything and end up staying home all the time. I've also had it happen twice when I got some bad gear. Once it took me a an entire 10ml vial before it finally dawned on me why I felt so sh**ty. I was feeling like did before I began the TRT. The problem is, it happens so gradually, that you're deep in it before you realize it.

[forrest_and_trees]

Update: I finally got a copy of my latest lab work from 9/29; it says my estradiol was 15 pg/mL. [so not too low] My T was 1622 [that was pinning 100mg every 5 days] and my IGF 1 is only 45 after 3 months of .03-.04mg of HGH every night. [I'm now at .05 a night.] After three months of nightly HGH shots I'd hoped to see better improvements by now.

It's been about 10 days now without an AI and surprisingly no signs of high E like in the past, but unfortunately, I'm still experiencing nerve pain; around a 2-5 [out of 1-10] on most days. It's always worst in the mornings. This has me concerned because it's looking like it's not low E after all. On top of all that, lately, I've been feeling weak and today I'm sore too. ...I'm thinking that may be due to cutting back on the T; I pinned 100mg test cyp last night, after waiting 6 days, I'm hoping it will kick in soon. It's all getting pretty frustrating.

FWIW I'm 52. In my 20s I was fit and active. I weighed 185 with a 32 inch waist. I did a lot of mountain biking, skiing, inline skating, etc. Then in my late twenties things began slowing down. In my thirties I began putting on weight. By the time I was 40 I weighed 450lbs. I couldn't stand for more than 5 mins or walk more than 50 feet without having to rest. I literally did not expect to live to see 45, but that's when I discovered I had low T, and hypothyroidism. Fortunately, after I began HRT, and found this place, I was able to come up the right regimen for me. That's when things began to get better and the weight started coming off.

About 5 years ago, I was benching 265, curing 200, and leg pressing over 500 lbs without even working out my legs. [I've always had strong legs from the earlier years of cycling, etc.] I know it's not nearly as much compared to many around here, but it was a lot for me. But then I had an accident that injured my shoulder and knee, so I had to lay off the weights, and I switched to cycling. At the time I hadn't ridden a bike in over 10 years.

About 4 years ago I had worked up to 65 mile rides on my mountain bike, averaging about 150 miles a week. I'd got down to 215 lbs and I literally walked with a bounce in my step. Sometimes I actually felt like I was walking on air. I'd usually bound up a flight of stairs two steps at a time. ...Then all my progress began to slow down, until about 3 years ago, it eventually stopped and began going back down hill. In the last two years I gained back 50 lbs and now I feel like shit all the time, but now sometimes with this debilitating nerve pain too.

My IGF-1 had dropped below 50 around the time things platued, and I suspected it was the root of my problems, but not having an endo at the time there wasn't much I could do about it. I tried high doses of L-Arginine with no luck. Then finally, earlier this year, I began seeing an endo. I had to go through six months of testing before he'd finally put my on GH.

I've always required much higher than usual amounts of everything before I'd start to respond, I'd hoped it was due to the low GH, but now even the HGH it's not responding as expected. I might just be one of hose lucky people who needs more of everything. I guess I'll have to wait and see, but after all these years and so many set backs, it's getting hard to stay positive.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I would drop your test dose which would let you lower your AI dose.

You are running supraphysiological levels of test.
That alone can cause your moodiness and bloat. (The bloat can cause puffy nipples.)

You are pretty much running a permanent low dose cycle IMO.

Side effects of Arimidex :
Side effects of Arimidex
Because Arimidex lowers the amount of estrogen in the body, less estrogen reaches bone cells, which can lead to bone thinning and weakening and a higher-than-average risk of broken bones. This side effect can be very troubling for some women. If you have osteoporosis, your doctor may recommend that you take tamoxifen rather than Arimidex because of this possible side effect.

The ATAC results reported in 2007 showed a finding that hadn't been seen before. The higher risk of broken bones associated with Arimidex disappeared after the women stopped taking Arimidex. The researchers will see if this result continues as more data is collected and analyzed.

Other common side effects of Arimidex are:

bone and joint pain
nausea
vomiting
hot flashes
weakness
fatigue
Some women may have other side effects while taking Arimidex:

headache
loss of appetite
constipation
diarrhea
heartburn
weight gain
mood changes
difficulty sleeping
dizziness
vaginal bleeding
vaginal dryness
dry mouth
dry skin
cough
hair changes
Some side effects may mean that you're having an allergic reaction to Arimidex. If you have any of the following symptoms, call your doctor immediately:

chest pain
blurred vision
racing heartbeat
rash or hives
swelling of the eyes, face, lips, tongue, throat, arms, hands, feet, ankles, or lower legs
breast pain or new lumps in the breast

https://www.breastcancer.org/treatme...itors/arimidex

[forrest_and_trees]

Sounds like it might be a good thing I cut back on the Anastorzol. It will be interesting to see how long I can go before I start to notice anything. Fortunately I've always had strong bones. BTW, don't women usually take much higher doses of AIs?

[Fluidic Kimbo]

You might not hear me when I say this, but although I do realise that drugs and medicines affect how I feel (psychologically and emotionally), I always consider my one hour of meditation per day to be the main thing that keeps me feeling good and keeps me psychologically resilient.

Of course if I were taking 80mcg of Clenbuterol per day and felt tweeky and jittery, I would look at lowering the dose before giving consideration to other stuff like prayer/chanting/meditation/yoga, but ultimately I consider my welbeing to be mostly rooted in the mind. You can have a body riddled with cancer and still be of sound mind.

Lots of people don't realise just how severe a psychosomatic symptom can be. An aching shoulder that you'd normally give a 2 out of 10 for pain can feel like 4 out of 10, or 5 out of 10 if you've got stuff worrying you in the back of your mind. Some people don't believe that chronic pain might in some isolated cases be entirely psychological.

I think kelkel and the DLD have given you good advice above, but I would also poke at the mental side of things -- not just for your case but for any person living with the human condition.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Sounds like it might be a good thing I cut back on the Anastorzol. It will be interesting to see how long I can go before I start to notice anything. Fortunately I've always had strong bones. BTW, don't women usually take much higher doses of AIs?

Women take the same dose you are taking and they have more estrogen than you do.

Recommended Dose
The dose of ARIMIDEX is one 1 mg tablet taken once a day. For patients with advanced breast cancer, ARIMIDEX should be continued until tumor progression. ARIMIDEX can be taken with or without food.

For adjuvant treatment of early breast cancer in postmenopausal women, the optimal duration of therapy is unknown. In the ATAC trial, ARIMIDEX was administered for five years [see Clinical Studies].

No dosage adjustment is necessary for patients with renal impairment or for elderly patients [see Use In Specific Population

https://www.rxlist.com/arimidex-drug.htm#dosage

[kelkel]

Update: I finally got a copy of my latest lab work from 9/29; it says my estradiol was 15 pg/mL. [so not too low] My T was 1622 [that was pinning 100mg every 5 days] and my IGF 1 is only 45 after 3 months of .03-.04mg of HGH every night. [I'm now at .05 a night.] After three months of nightly HGH shots I'd hoped to see better improvements by now.

Problem is your doctor probably tested standard estradiol based on your verbiage above. If that's the case estradiol tends to read higher in men as it's not sensitive enough for a males lower estrogen readings. This then can cause doctors who don't understand this to issue drugs like adex to counter the false high readings. In your situation I'd bet you're actually much lower than the given reading. A Sensitive E2 Assay should always be run.

[Chicagotarsier]

I think people have very different tolerences to Estrogen. For me personally if on 80-90 a week dose trt treatment I does with Aromasin every 2 weeks. I can feel the estrogen build to the point that a unique feedback occurs with use of Cialis. It will cause my neck and shoulder to hurt from stiffness so bad it is unbearable. Now when I bump up to 120 a week if I do not dose Aromasin daily the interaction occurs every day. Just how my body reacts.

I get the cannot ejaculate thing too when on 120 a week. I can orgasm but almost 0 deposit. I drop down to 60-70 a week and I am a darn machine gun with full deposit.

Have to learn your body.

[forrest_and_trees]

kelkel, I began taking Anastrozol 10 years ago because of this site. My then Doc put me on it after I provided him an article I got from here. I've only been seeing my Endo about 9 months now, and he might not know about estradiol sensitive tests, but I can't fault him for the AI. And like I said, low E is clearly not the cause of my nerve pain; I've been off the AI going on 12 days now, and my E levels are fine based on those test results from last month, when I was taken AI almost daily. So we can put the whole low E thing, as the cause of my nerve pain, to bed now. ...Maybe I need to start a new thread but we're already on a roll.

Fluidic Kimbo, I hear you, but when pain is so bad it wakes you up and you can't even stand, that's more than in your head. Though I'm sure I could benefit from mindfulness for other reasons and it's been on my list of things to look into.

Chicagotasier, I think you're right, if there's anything I've learned throughout my whole HRT journey, it's that there are always exceptions to the rule, and I'm usually one of them.

[Frank777]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I'm thinking about taking Anastrozole. But having checked its side effects on the Canadian Pharmacy site (hot flashes, headache, trouble sleeping, dizziness, stomach upset, nausea/vomiting, constipation, diarrhea, loss of appetite, weight gain, tiredness/weakness, increased coughing, or sore throat may occur), I decided to explore the subject in more detail and find out the opinions of more experienced people. I think that Anaztrozole is better than Aromazin (that was mentioned above) because it is a nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor.