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Thread: hCG and Pregnenolone; What you should know.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen2cody View Post
    gdevine, I have a question for you. I was told after I mix the bac water with the HCG and inject the dosage, the remaining is to be refrigerated. Should the remaining bac water be refrigerated too. My instructions doesnt address the remaining water.
    Just the reconstituted hCG needs refrigeration not the Bac water.

  2. #42
    aspen2cody is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    Just the reconstituted hCG needs refrigeration not the Bac water.
    THanks, I figured it out once I went thru the protocol. Today was my 1st injection of hCG . Do you recommend taking Pregnenolone and DHEA while on TRT, hCG and AI? How much would take of each? Do think DHEA can increase the probability of side effects of the testosterone (acne)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen2cody View Post
    THanks, I figured it out once I went thru the protocol. Today was my 1st injection of hCG. Do you recommend taking Pregnenolone and DHEA while on TRT, hCG and AI? How much would take of each? Do think DHEA can increase the probability of side effects of the testosterone (acne)?
    I (and others here) highly recommend supplementing Pregnenolone and DHEA as they both support back-filling the pathways.

    Your Physician can prescribe for you or you can buy OTC.

    If you go OTC and decide on pills make sure they are "micronized". I believe www.lef.org is selling them this way as well.

    You can always opt for cream which can be bought online as well.

    50 mg of both and split dosage to once in the morning and once mid afternoon.

    I don't know your protocol but if you are injecting testosterone you will need hCG and highly likely an AI as well.

    Start a new thread and do your research here; the question you asked is very basic.
    Last edited by steroid.com 1; 02-13-2012 at 12:04 PM.

  4. #44
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    Great read thank you

  5. #45
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    This is an excellent article thanks

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    skarmasutramusic is offline New Member
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    Great read.. More is better... With knowledge

  7. #47
    wandnancy91 is offline Female Member
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    hCG and Pregnenolone are new terms that I've encountered just recently. With this post I learn their meaning and their respective functions in our body. Thank you very much for sharing such a wonderful post.

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    Great post, however broad, it's also important to note, aside from the fact that P450scc (identified as CYP11A1 in this case) catalyzes the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone, the significance of pregnenolone in relation to adrenal function plays a huge role in overall health, especially those undertaking HRT with a strong emphasis on thyroid repla***ent. More specifically, the conversion from cholesterol to pregnenolone in the zonas of the adrenal cortex depends on being transported to the mitochondria where the CYP11A1 is found, and this process is controlled by StAR (steroidogenic acute regulatory protein). If the adrenal function in the 3 zonas are fatigued, or cholesterol happens to be out of balance, conversion to this key prohormone may be lacking. So therefore, supplementation of pregnenolone can help boost adrenal steroid synthesis for those with adrenal apathy. Finally, the significance of healthy adrenal function in relation to thyroid supplementation can be the make it or break it for many who are suffering from low cortisol. (Remember, T3 "uses up" cortisol in a way while getting into cells, so when supplementing, if your body cannot produce enough cortisol, you'll feel common hypo symptoms, however low sodium can also cause a decrease in temperature, it also usually renders a fast pulse. For more info on thyroid I'll start a new thread sometime).

    Below are some attached images of the pathways of the prohormone pregnenolone in relation to adrenal zonas and the biosynthesis from cholesterol.

    hCG and Pregnenolone; What you should know.-adrenalsteroidsynthesis.jpghCG and Pregnenolone; What you should know.-676px-steroidogenesis.jpg

  9. #49
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    Nice article. Does the addition of Pregnenolone along with an AI during HRT help increase sex drive or is the HRT and AI enough?

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    acadmia is offline Junior Member
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    will add HCG to my next cycle for sure. Thanks for the great post.

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    Great thread!

    I`ve not heard too much about supplementing with pregnenolone other places I`ve been reading, although everyone seems to agree that HCG is a must on TRT.

    1) What is the smallest possible dose/frequency possible for HCG with TRT?

    I`ve been trying 200 IU 3X weekly and it may be random, but I often feel more "heavy" in my head and body the day after injecting HCG, so I would be interested in experimenting with even lower doses.

    2) Does everyone notice an increase in testicular size using HCG? Even on HCG monotherapy with 500 IU 3X weekly, I noticed NOTHING in terms of increase of size, which along with not feeling better made me think it did not work. Hence the surprise when BW said it actually did work. And if it matters, my nuts as fairly small already. Would not expect an increase if they were already large. I`m happy if I can MAINTAIN my size and testicular function with HCG now that I`m on TRT, but I just don`t have the same experience when I hear of guys with their balls increasing substantially.

    Thanks in advance.

    Renholder

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    MrManGuy84 is offline New Member
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    I also have a question about hcg .

    How important is hcg if one is trying direct testosterone therapy on a short-ish term basis (like 3 or 4 months) as a way to see how he feels and confirm a diagnosis? Since I want to maintain my fertility I would like to try an alternate treatment like maybe clomid or something, but it sounds like the best results come from regular TRT, so I might want to try that first.

    When using it for only a short term, is there much risk of atrophy or pain without hcg? Is the testosterone less likely to prove effective at making me feel better?

    Thanks for a great thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renholder View Post
    Great thread!

    I`ve not heard too much about supplementing with pregnenolone other places I`ve been reading, although everyone seems to agree that HCG is a must on TRT.

    1) What is the smallest possible dose/frequency possible for HCG with TRT?
    Depends upon each man and TRT protocol. Dr. John Crisler has men using 100iu daily when using a cream/gel. He also has men using 500iu twice a week when injecting. I personally like smaller doses more frequently. My protocol calls for 250iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

    I`ve been trying 200 IU 3X weekly and it may be random, but I often feel more "heavy" in my head and body the day after injecting HCG, so I would be interested in experimenting with even lower doses.
    Give it a try; it won't hurt. hCG is a forgiving peptide.

    2) Does everyone notice an increase in testicular size using HCG? Even on HCG monotherapy with 500 IU 3X weekly, I noticed NOTHING in terms of increase of size, which along with not feeling better made me think it did not work. Hence the surprise when BW said it actually did work. And if it matters, my nuts as fairly small already. Would not expect an increase if they were already large. I`m happy if I can MAINTAIN my size and testicular function with HCG now that I`m on TRT, but I just don`t have the same experience when I hear of guys with their balls increasing substantially.
    Not sure about size, but everyone is different. It will keep you HPTA intact so you testes will continue to function properly.

    Thanks in advance.

    Renholder

    Above in bold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrManGuy84 View Post
    I also have a question about hcg .

    How important is hcg if one is trying direct testosterone therapy on a short-ish term basis (like 3 or 4 months) as a way to see how he feels and confirm a diagnosis?
    This is not a good approach in my opinion. Once you start you will go into HPTA suppression so it critical to keep HPTA functioning so to answer your question; it's important.

    Since I want to maintain my fertility I would like to try an alternate treatment like maybe clomid or something, but it sounds like the best results come from regular TRT, so I might want to try that first.
    Ok.

    When using it for only a short term, is there much risk of atrophy or pain without hcg?
    Quite possibly, yes. But each man is different some see atrophy almost from the outset...others months if not a year before symptoms of atrophy.

    Is the testosterone less likely to prove effective at making me feel better?
    Yes, it can very much so.


    Thanks for a great thread.
    Welcome

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    Welcome
    Greetings Gdevine. I was searching the web and came across this post/thread you created. I'm really fascinating on the things you said about Pregnenolone. Now here is my question. What if I do NOT want to take HCG due to the fact that the stuff makes me VERY moody. My balls are a bit small, but they are not retracting back into my body nor do they hurt or ache.

    Can I just take Pregnenolone and DHEA alone "WITHOUT" having to take HCG? Or is HCG a must for those on TRT? Last thing I want to do is drive my estrogen levels up and sadly, HCG seems to do this for me. And unfortunately I cannot take an AI; they all make me feel like total crap, no matter how low of a dose i use.

    Also, something I noticed from YEARS of getting blood work is that the higher my testosterone weekly dose, the higher my progesterone gets. The most amount of testosterone I can take in a week is 250mgs. 250mgs of test per week brings my progesterone levels to 1.5 (thats the highest blood work say it should go to). If I take anything more than 250mgs of test per week, my progesterone levels go to up as high as a 5, 6 or even 7!!!!

    I'm afraid of Pregnenolone because this stuff increases progesterone as well.
    Last edited by Nyde; 07-01-2012 at 10:43 AM.

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    All in all, it almost seems to me that taking HCG is useless, especially if someone is taking (separately) DHEA, Testosterone (which later converts to DHT and Estrogen) and Pregnenolone. Yes, I'm sure you all are going to say "what about the testicles?". What about them? What if someone like me does NOT have testicles that ache/hurt and want to go back inside my body? Why take the HCG for then? To drive estrogen way up high? No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyde View Post
    All in all, it almost seems to me that taking HCG is useless, especially if someone is taking (separately) DHEA, Testosterone (which later converts to DHT and Estrogen) and Pregnenolone. Yes, I'm sure you all are going to say "what about the testicles?". What about them? What if someone like me does NOT have testicles that ache/hurt and want to go back inside my body? Why take the HCG for then? To drive estrogen way up high? No thanks.
    No disrespect, and you certainly open to your own opinion; but I believe you have much to learn.

    Pregnenolone is far up the androgen pathway and is not converted by Testosterone .

    DHEA is not an LH analog like hCG is so I have no idea where you think supplementing with DHEA will keep HPTA intact...it won't.

    Low doses of hCG has very little impact on increase in E2 in most, not all, men...so it's rarely an issue if dosed correctly.

    The best and foremost TRT Physician's in the county use hCG in most, not all, of their TRT protocols...you'd think they something.

    Like I stated in the start of this thread; men don't need hCG but they need to be aware of the potential consequences if they don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    No disrespect, and you certainly open to your own opinion; but I believe you have much to learn.

    Pregnenolone is far up the androgen pathway and is not converted by Testosterone .

    DHEA is not an LH analog like hCG is so I have no idea where you think supplementing with DHEA will keep HPTA intact...it won't.

    Low doses of hCG has very little impact on increase in E2 in most, not all, men...so it's rarely an issue if dosed correctly.

    The best and foremost TRT Physician's in the county use hCG in most, not all, of their TRT protocols...you'd think they something.

    Like I stated in the start of this thread; men don't need hCG but they need to be aware of the potential consequences if they don't.


    I never said that Preg comes from testosterone. Where did I say this? You're saying that we need HCG to create Preg, yes? My question is, why not just take Preg and be done with it? Why the need for HCG? If it's to create Preg, then take Preg in pills/caps and the problem is resolved. No??? I also never said that taking DHEA will keep HPTA intact. Never said this. Where did I say this? I cannot find this anywhere.

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    This sentence is about as asinine as it gets: "All in all, it almost seems to me that taking HCG is useless, especially if someone is taking (separately) DHEA, Testosterone (which later converts to DHT and Estrogen) and Pregnenolone."

    hCG is an LH analog and is not Testosterone nor Pregnenolone nor DHEA nor does it behave the same way.

    hCG acts on the receptors of the leydig cells directly to keep them functioning in light of exogenous Testosterone and the resulting HPTA suppression.

    Testosterone nor DHEA nor Pregnenolone are not going to perform the same function as this analog messenger...period.

    How you can make a statement like taking "hCG is useless if someone is taking DHEA or Testosterone" only shows to me that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

    The best male hormone Physicians include hCG in thier protocols...and for what???

    If DHEA or Pregnenolone supplementation could do the same job, as you are positioning it, why aren't these Physician's using that instead?

    We use Pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation as part of a good TRT protocol to back fill the androgen pathways that have in effect been shut down.

    Nuff said.
    Last edited by steroid.com 1; 07-08-2012 at 10:45 PM.

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    And now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast!

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    ^^^^Yea I know...

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    Nyde is offline New Member
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    Ok, let me try this again, and I won't get rude or nasty like the way you have onto me. Ill take it nice and easy.

    You say that we need to take HCG so that we can create Pregnenolone, correct? Just answer me this one question please. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Have a great day, take care.

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    GD will respond. It's his thread. No one was rude or nasty. A little humor is just fine here and makes this a fun place. Happens to all of us here. Stick around, read up. I/we learn every day here. You will like it here

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    GD will respond. It's his thread. No one was rude or nasty. A little humor is just fine here and makes this a fun place. Happens to all of us here. Stick around, read up. I/we learn every day here. You will like it here
    Sir, so if someone you just met on the street starts a conversation with you, and they say something that either you didn't understand or you did not agree with, do you tell them "you don't know what the hell you're talking about, you have a lot to learn"?

    Does this seem polite,well mannered and educated to you?

    I came here in peace with good intentions "wanting" to be educated and/or corrected. I did not come here to be insulted and/or disrespected. This is just plain rude; nothing funny about this.

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    "I came here in peace with good intentions "wanting" to be educated and/or corrected. I did not come here to be insulted and/or disrespected. This is just plain rude; nothing funny about this."

    Well, sorry you feel that way. GD did both "educate" and "correct" you. You, sir, did not listen. He is without question one of the most knowledgeable and educated members here in this forum. And as always, if you do not agree post a relevent medical study to sway our opinion in another direction, we'd love to see it.

    And I repeat, it is just a little humor. Relax, stick around, you'll see!

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    Nyde is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    "I came here in peace with good intentions "wanting" to be educated and/or corrected. I did not come here to be insulted and/or disrespected. This is just plain rude; nothing funny about this."

    Well, sorry you feel that way. GD did both "educate" and "correct" you. You, sir, did not listen. He is without question one of the most knowledgeable and educated members here in this forum. And as always, if you do not agree post a relevent medical study to sway our opinion in another direction, we'd love to see it.

    And I repeat, it is just a little humor. Relax, stick around, you'll see!

    I never once disagreed with anything or anyone. I truly feel as though everything I said and asked has been misread. That is all. Have a great day.

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    Hey Nyde - No one is being mean nor nasty; in fact I started out with: "No disrespect, and you're certainly open to your own opinion..."

    hCG keeps a mans testicles alive and healthy as it is an analog to LH. Men who use hCG, if Secondary Hypogonadal of course, will continue to produce some amount of natural Testosterone but usually never in the amounts needed to overcome their hypogonadal state...remember they were Secondary Hypogonadal for a reason...thus TRT.

    But there are other metabolic reasons to use hCG in a TRT protocol.

    The P450 Side Chain Cleavage Enzyme, which converts Cholesterol into Pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways. So, Cholesterol serves as precursor for all three pathways - the sex hormones, the glucocorticoids and the mineralcorticoids pathways and they are actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH serum level concentrations.

    It is intuitive I guess to some extent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels in a Secondary Hypogonadal male that any commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby increasing hormone production.

    And vice versa of course...

    Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme as noted by Oscar in a post further up) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in men who are entirely, or partially, HPTA-suppressed.

    With HPTA suppression the Axis is not functioning and therefore LH and FSH production is pretty much halted...and for life...that's why many men at some point see Testicular atrophy without the use of hCG. It's also why LH and FSH assays are useless once a man starts a TRT protocol.

    When a man introduces exogenous Testosterone in his body he stops producing natural Testosterone due to HPTA suppression. No matter what, the Pituitary will not start up and begin creating LH...it's impossible if a man continues with a TRT protocol. So to keep the mans testes alive and functioning properly the use of hCG is needed and as noted.

    With TRT all the other hormones upstream of Testosterone are severely depleted - especially Pregnenolone and DHEA. These hormones are progenitors -- meaning they are the "Mother" for all other hormones and have a say in all the other endocrine pathways not just the Androgen Pathway.

    So it's vital to back fill the pathways by supplementing with both Pregnenolone and DHEA in sufficient amounts to make sure we are providing all other pathways with the needed basis which to function optimally...they do so much!

    None of this has to with with LH which is the messenger hormone produced by the Pituitary gland which is suppressed when exogenous Testosterone is introduced into a mans body. The only way a man can make up for this short fall in LH production is by introducing an analog to LH which we all know as Human Chorionic Gonadotropin ...and no amount of Preg or DHEA can change that...wish it would...hCG is a bit expensive

    BTW, I didn't mean to come across disrespectful; so apologies if I did.

    Peace out.
    Last edited by steroid.com 1; 07-09-2012 at 07:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    No one is being mean nor nasty; in fact I started out with: "No disrespect, and you're certainly open to your own opinion..."

    hCG keeps a mans testicles alive and healthy as it is an analog to LH. Men who use hCG, if Secondary Hypogonadal of course, will continue to produce some amount of natural Testosterone but usually never in the amounts needed to overcome their hypogonadal state...thus TRT.

    So it's easy to deduct that hCG activates the P450 Side Chain Cleavage Enzyme, the same way LH does, which is primarily responsible for converting Cholesterol into Pregnenolone. (Oscar's post above.)

    With HPTA suppression the Axis is not functioning and therefore LH and FSH production is pretty much halted...and for life...that's why many men at some point see Testicular atrophy without the use of hCG. It's also why LH and FSH assays are useless once a man starts a TRT protocol.

    When a man introduces exogenous Testosterone in his body he stops producing natural Testosterone due to HPTA suppression. No matter what, the Pituitary will not start up and begin creating LH...it's impossible if a man continues with a TRT protocol. So to keep the mans testes alive and functioning properly the use of hCG is needed and as noted.

    With TRT all the other hormones upstream of Testosterone are severely depleted - especially Pregnenolone and DHEA. These hormones are progenitors -- meaning they are the "Mother" for all other hormones and have a say in all the other endocrine pathways not just the Androgen Pathway.

    So it's vital to back fill the pathways by supplementing with both Pregnenolone and DHEA in sufficient amounts to make sure we are providing all other pathways with the needed basis which to function optimally...they do so much!

    None of this has to with with LH which is the messenger hormone produced by the Pituitary gland which is suppressed when exogenous Testosterone is introduced into a mans body. The only way a man can make up for this short fall in LH production is by introducing an analog to LH which we all know as Human Chorionic Gonadotropin ...and no amount of Preg or DHEA can change that...wish it would...hCG is a bit expensive

    BTW, I didn't mean to come across disrespectful; so apologies if I did.

    Peace out.

    I understand all of this. What I'm saying is this....


    If I'm injecting a weekly dose of testosterone, but my body is missing out on Preg and DHEA (because of low to nonexistent LH and FSH and dormant testicles), why not just take what is missing? Why not just take Preg and DHEA...along with the injectable Testosterone?

    What if the size of my testicles are fine? What if they hang just fine? Why the need for HCG? Why not just take preg and DHEA (which the body cannot make because of dormant testicles)?

    Hit me back with this and I'll explain why I am asking this. I just didn't want to continue and thus confuse anyone else. Hope to hear from you soon.

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    I stated more then once that back filling the pathways is an excellent idea on any TRT protocol as noted and as you wrote...regardless if a man is on a hCG protocol or not.

    That said, Preg and DHEA are not an LH analog so they will have no effect on testicular function...you need natural LH for that OR hCG.

    In my first post here I stated that men don't need hCG...but they should know the consequences of HPTA suppression on testicular function and the resulting negative side effects...it's essentially a self induced organ shutdown to be honest.

    If you're testes are fine now and you don't see or feel any of the negative side effects to HPTA suppression then all the power to you man...but in time it will change...can't change how the body functions.

    Add in some Preg and hCG each morning like 50mg of each...it's really good for you in so many ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    I stated more then once that back filling the pathways is an excellent idea on any TRT protocol as noted and as you wrote...regardless if a man is on a hCG protocol or not.

    That said, Preg and DHEA are not an LH analog so they will have no effect on testicular function...you need natural LH for that OR hCG.

    In my first post here I stated that men don't need hCG...but they should know the consequences of HPTA suppression on testicular function and the resulting negative side effects...it's essentially a self induced organ shutdown to be honest.

    If you're testes are fine now and you don't see or feel any of the negative side effects to HPTA suppression then all the power to you man...but in time it will change...can't change how the body functions.

    Add in some Preg and hCG each morning like 50mg of each...it's really good for you in so many ways.


    The resulting "negative" side effects you speak of are a lack of preg and DHEA from ZERO testicular function. Correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyde View Post
    The resulting "negative" side effects you speak of are a lack of preg and DHEA from ZERO testicular function. Correct?
    To a small point, but...

    The Testes are very complex androgenic glands and they need to function for all the reasons we are men (not just to make Preg, DHEA, Testosterone ...) as noted in my original post (do some research on your own and you will see).

    Preg and DHEA supplementation will not negate the bad side effects of Testicular shut down and atrophy...know that.

    It will help support the other pathways as noted above...and that's good.
    Last edited by steroid.com 1; 07-09-2012 at 08:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    To a small point, but...

    The Testes are very complex androgenic glands and they need to function for all the reasons we are men (not just to make Preg, DHEA, Testosterone ...) as noted in my original post (do some research on your own and you will see).

    Preg and DHEA supplementation will not negate the bad side effects of Testicular shut down and atrophy...know that.

    It will help support the other pathways as noted above...and that's good.

    You advised me to do some research. Funny thing is...lol...I've been doing research on this for a while. I'm sorry, I cannot find any other reasons for which to take HCG but other than to increase preg, dhea and testosterone (and testicle size of course). lol


    I used to take HCG. Yes, it made my testicles bigger. Downside was that it increased my estrogen too much. I would become very moody! And my gyno would always flare up. It would flare up so much, that I had to get gyno removal surgery as of 2 months ago.

    I was always told that taking HCG would increase preg and DHEA. The odd thing about this is that HCG never once (according to bloodwork) increased my preg and DHEA. The last time I was on HCG at 500ius per week, my DHEA levels were ONLY at 60! I now have to take 150mgs of DHEA daily just to bring my DHEA levels to 450 on bloodwork.

    Don't know if HCG increased my preg or not because I never had preg tested out. I recently as of 2 weeks ago began to take preg at 25mgs every morning. What I have noticed is that I have become a bit more calmer, but also less of a libido, so don't know whats up with that.

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    No reply back?

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    was there a question? and if you have specific questions is best to start your own thread so you can get better responses, these threads are mostly to read and add new information to whats been posted to the original thread.

  35. #75
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    ^^^^Why I stopped my debate here bass.

  36. #76
    ffire522 is offline New Member
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    New member here, have been on HRT for two years and have been getting my HCG overseas. It seems that the place I was ordering from is not selling HCG now. Could someone pm me any reliable source. With the new law inplay.

  37. #77
    bongoz is offline Junior Member
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    GD great thread learned alot thanks

  38. #78
    MADMAX1078's Avatar
    MADMAX1078 is offline New Member
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    excellent read and thanks for the info!

  39. #79
    funkymonk is offline Associate Member
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    Quick question about my hCG (brand Novarel). The mfr. site says it's good for 60 days after reconstitution, as does this sticky. This may sound weird, but is this true? I've always heard 30 days until recently.


    Also, I'm currently injecting 250iu 2x a week. I've been following this addition to my regimen for the last 4 weeks, after being on TRT for 1.5 years with no hCG. I've noticed only a small difference in ball size, if any. Should I bump it to 3x a week?

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkymonk View Post
    Quick question about my hCG (brand Novarel). The mfr. site says it's good for 60 days after reconstitution, as does this sticky. This may sound weird, but is this true? I've always heard 30 days until recently.

    In actuality, it's probably more like 90 days before potency starts to diminish. Don't worry about it, use what you have and take care of it and you will be find.


    Also, I'm currently injecting 250iu 2x a week. I've been following this addition to my regimen for the last 4 weeks, after being on TRT for 1.5 years with no hCG. I've noticed only a small difference in ball size, if any. Should I bump it to 3x a week?
    You can if you wish. 250iu 3x a week is fine and will do you well.

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