From testosterone to HCG only - an experiment

[61er]

After six months on gel and three rounds of Testopel (pellets) I decided to give hcg -only treatment a try. My first injection was July 5. Dosage was 500 IU two times a week.

On August 7, I had bloodwork done and the results were on the low side: TT 279 (300-890), FT 67.5 (47-244), SHBG 22 (13-71), and Estradiol 14.2 pg/ml (no reference range). The TT and FT were well below levels on pellets, but I felt pretty good, but not great. (Before treatment began, about 2.5 years ago, TT was in the mid hundreds and I felt like crap.)

To boost TT, my endo suggested a 3x week treatment regimen. This began two weeks ago.

The next month or two should be interesting. If TT doesn't rebound, I assume my doctor will advise adding some exogenous T to the mix.

On the whole, I've happy with hcg. Testicles are full size and morning erections are good. Injecting is a breeze and painless with 31 gauge SQ.

Can anyone shed light on the relatively low T? Does it take time for Leydig cells to fully reactivate? (I'm 7 weeks on HCG only.) Or, at 51, are testes unlikely to ever produce the levels I loved while on T?

[EverettCD]

How close are your most recent levels to your pre-TRT levels? I have read a few times how HCG only is all a person needs to get their levels where they need them. You may be one of those guys or you may not be. Personally I need exogenous testosterone to bring my levels up to where I feel "good". I also use HCG in addition to my Test Cyp.

Good luck to you. It will be great for you if all you need is HCG, I wish I could get by with HCG only.

[61er]

How close are your most recent levels to your pre-TRT levels? I have read a few times how HCG only is all a person needs to get their levels where they need them. You may be one of those guys or you may not be. Personally I need exogenous testosterone to bring my levels up to where I feel "good". I also use HCG in addition to my Test Cyp.

Good luck to you. It will be great for you if all you need is HCG, I wish I could get by with HCG only.

I was tested twice in the month prior to starting TRT:270 and 184. So the recent HCG-only result (279) is in the same ballpark. Troubling, but maybe Leydig stimulation takes time? FYI, i was on TRT for 15 months before switching to HCG.

[powerlifterty16]

I was tested twice in the month prior to starting TRT:270 and 184. So the recent HCG-only result (279) is in the same ballpark. Troubling, but maybe Leydig stimulation takes time? FYI, i was on TRT for 15 months before switching to HCG.

noone could answer this question without knowing if you were primary or seondary prior to starting trt. if you were primary, then you need trt, but if you were secondary, then perhaps you just need to wait another month until your balls become stronger again and you will produce a decent testosterone level. At your age, you prob were primary.
people can achieve high test on hcg only. People can get in the 800s or higher on 400 iu 3x per week

[EverettCD]

I was tested twice in the month prior to starting TRT:270 and 184. So the recent HCG-only result (279) is in the same ballpark. Troubling, but maybe Leydig stimulation takes time? FYI, i was on TRT for 15 months before switching to HCG.

Did you use HCG while you were used Gel & Testopel?

[Beethoven]

I was on test Cyp also. I found a good Doc and he has me on HCG also. I'll find out how my BW is tomorrow but I also feel real good with it. Even if I had to go back to Cyp, I would still use the HCG with it.

[61er]

I was on test Cyp also. I found a good Doc and he has me on HCG also. I'll find out how my BW is tomorrow but I also feel real good with it. Even if I had to go back to Cyp, I would still use the HCG with it.

Beethoven: I agree. I'm staying on it no matter. I'm very curious about your bloodwork. I hope you have time to report back.

EverettCD: No intentional overlap of testosterone and HCG . When i first started using HCG, there may have been some small residual T flowing from the pellets, which were inserted four months prior. Enough time has now passed that I'm sure they have fully dissolved.

[61er]

Thanks. Next round of bloodwork should answer this important question. My GP did not explore whether I was primary or secondary prior to treatment. He did, however, sent me for an MRI, which turned up nothing.

Anyone have stats on likelihood of primary vs secondary causation for men my age (51)? I assume the likelihood of primary increases with age.

[HRTstudent]

Thanks. Next round of bloodwork should answer this important question. My GP did not explore whether I was primary or secondary prior to treatment. He did, however, sent me for an MRI, which turned up nothing.

Anyone have stats on likelihood of primary vs secondary causation for men my age (51)? I assume the likelihood of primary increases with age.

without a proper workup it's just guess work. but yea, your hunch is right that given age we would expect less of a response to HCG on average. but that certainly doesn't say anything about you in particular.

if you're feeling better and your negative symptoms are subsiding, take that as a win! don't get too bogged down searching for an "ideal" number. what good is a number anyways in and of itself? focus on what really matters.

[EverettCD]

Well said HRTstudent. I don't get too bogged down on my numbers myself. I'm about 2 weeks in after making the move from topicals to IM injected Test Cyp & I already feel much better than I did the entire time I was on topicals. I don't really care if my test levels come back at 550 or 950, I am aiming for better quality of life not a high score on the TRT video game.

[HRTstudent]

Well said HRTstudent. I don't get too bogged down on my numbers myself. I'm about 2 weeks in after making the move from topicals to IM injected Test Cyp & I already feel much better than I did the entire time I was on topicals. I don't really care if my test levels come back at 550 or 950, I am aiming for better quality of life not a high score on the TRT video game.

exactly...

and the more time I spent on the boards the more I realized that people were feeling better, not at the top of the range, but at a little bit less. there's got to be a reason that I've seen some good doctors strive for this point as well.

[61er]

I'm reporting back on my experiment with HCG -only...

Background

On July 5, I decided not to proceed with my scheduled Testopel (pellet) injection, opting to try HCG-only. Dosage was 500 IU two times a week.

On August 7, I had bloodwork done and the results were on the low side: TT 279 (300-890), FT 67.5 (47-244), SHBG 22 (13-71), and Estradiol 14.2 pg/ml (no reference range). I felt pretty good, but not great. To boost TT, my endo suggested a 3x week treatment regimen.

Update

On September 13, slightly more than 2 months into HCG-only, key indicators were as follows: TT 426 (250-1100), FT 101.4 (35-155), and Estradiol 31 (< or = 39). LH is <0.2, but I assume HCG has shut down natural production of LH. As before, I feel pretty good, but not great.

Next step.

While the indicators have improved, I'm striving for a better "sense of wellbeing". Unless it improves in the next month or so I'm inclined to re-introduce testosterone , staying on HCG. Next appointment with endo is in November.

[powerlifterty16]

when did u draw blood? were you still taking the hcg ? i did hcg for 6 weeks and retested and my numbers went down but i took 1.5 weeks off from hcg so thinking that might be why.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

LH is <0.2, but I assume HCG has shut down natural production of LH.

OP,

Your assumption is correct. Your LH will be suppressed while taking HCG .

[powerlifterty16]

OP,

Your assumption is correct. Your LH will be suppressed while taking HCG.

i disagree

[>Good Luck<]

i disagree

I'm curious how you feel that introducing exogenous LH would not lower natural LH. I've also read you don't believe it can suppress natrual production with extended use or over-use....where do u get this from and why? Seems like u just refuse to believe it. Not trying to be rude just trying to understand where your passionate disagreement stems from...

[powerlifterty16]

I'm curious how you feel that introducing exogenous LH would not lower natural LH. I've also read you don't believe it can suppress natrual production with extended use or over-use....where do u get this from and why? Seems like u just refuse to believe it. Not trying to be rude just trying to understand where your passionate disagreement stems from...

i dont mind explaining my reasoning. I, like most here, logically believed hcg could and would suppress lh. I then learned more about it, and took it myself for 6 weeks, and my lh actually INCREASED. i was advised by the experts here to take bloodwork around 2 weeks after hcg cessation, but since i had a doc appt i took it 1.5 weeks after stopping hcg. my lh was 6.8. idk if it would have been 0, 1.5 weeks prior but im willing to bet it wouldnt be!

i also have had lengthy convos with lowtmike, the head of lowt.com, and he says that hcg mono could be used in a 6 week dose to restart the bodies hpta to produce more lh. He used an analogy of a lawn motor i believe? with no gas that can still be started by pressing a certain pedal..honestly idk the exact analogy and i am butchering it....but i can search my pms later and post it.

[>Good Luck<]

i dont mind explaining my reasoning. I, like most here, logically believed hcg could and would suppress lh. I then learned more about it, and took it myself for 6 weeks, and my lh actually INCREASED. i was advised by the experts here to take bloodwork around 2 weeks after hcg cessation, but since i had a doc appt i took it 1.5 weeks after stopping hcg. my lh was 6.8. idk if it would have been 0, 1.5 weeks prior but im willing to bet it wouldnt be!

i also have had lengthy convos with lowtmike, the head of lowt.com, and he says that hcg mono could be used in a 6 week dose to restart the bodies hpta to produce more lh. He used an analogy of a lawn motor i believe? with no gas that can still be started by pressing a certain pedal..honestly idk the exact analogy and i am butchering it....but i can search my pms later and post it.

Well I don't know many cycles that are 6 weeks long, nor does that cover people on trt for years....but the scenario look legit if it was 6 weeks

[powerlifterty16]

good luck, we were just talking about hcg mono restart cycles, not trt cycles. it's funny though, my lh went up but t went down, and then i took bw again a month or two later and lh went to 4.6 and t went up 120 points...so maybe my lh was suppressed, but after 1.5 weeks of, my t got suppressed, and lh ramped up...idk..i hope to be on hcg mono therapy soon, and ill take bw then....right now im on clomid, dont reall feel any different besides a little more confident and assertive...and i think im doing better workout wise...but not as good as hcg mono therapy.

[>Good Luck<]

good luck, we were just talking about hcg mono restart cycles, not trt cycles. it's funny though, my lh went up but t went down, and then i took bw again a month or two later and lh went to 4.6 and t went up 120 points...so maybe my lh was suppressed, but after 1.5 weeks of, my t got suppressed, and lh ramped up...idk..i hope to be on hcg mono therapy soon, and ill take bw then....right now im on clomid, dont reall feel any different besides a little more confident and assertive...and i think im doing better workout wise...but not as good as hcg mono therapy.

Got ya!

[61er]

when did u draw blood? were you still taking the hcg? i did hcg for 6 weeks and retested and my numbers went down but i took 1.5 weeks off from hcg so thinking that might be why.

Thanks for your feedback. I drew blood on a Friday morning, two days after an injection of 500 IUs. With a half life of 24-36 hours I figured it was best to draw near a trough. It has never been clear to me whether this is the correct thing to do.

[kelkel]

Doesn't matter that much when you draw as long as you know what your looking at.

[dreadnok89]

If your t is low your still gonna have problems body wise correct? Low t is horrible it. Especially the older you get. 180 is low. Also can t you get problems taking too much hcg ?

[APIs]

Past experiences on this forum suggests that long-term HCG use doesnt work well. However, OP's results so far look good. If HCG alone doesnt work, I'd suggest IM injections & you'll likely be fine...

[powerlifterty16]

Past experiences on this forum suggests that long-term HCG use doesnt work well. However, OP's results so far look good. If HCG alone doesnt work, I'd suggest IM injections & you'll likely be fine...

why im?

[dreadnok89]

I keep reading subq has some problems. I read that it gets absorbed better thru im. With sub some doesn't get absorbed and it just stays in the fat. Wouldn't there be more conversion too in the fat? Not saying I'm right, just asking a question. I would love tothe sub q route

[APIs]

why im?

Personal preference. Not totally sold on sub q either, as there's never been a "true" clinical trial done to support this delivery method. Plus I'm on 200/week which isnt exactly convenient via sub q.

[ZenFitness]

I'm curious why the OP wants hCG only vs. test or test+hCG? Not criticizing... just curious.

[powerlifterty16]

I'm curious why the OP wants hCG only vs. test or test+hCG? Not criticizing... just curious.

young guys want to avoid trt if possible. idk how old op is. i dont think hcg permanently if at all shut you down....i was on it and ddidnt get shut down.

[kelkel]

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A p... [Saudi Med J. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

[powerlifterty16]

Personal preference. Not totally sold on sub q either, as there's never been a "true" clinical trial done to support this delivery method. Plus I'm on 200/week which isnt exactly convenient via sub q.

when i think of IM i think of big huge needles that hurt....when i did subq hcg it didnt hurt at all.

[APIs]

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A p... [Saudi Med J. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

Good stuff Kel, but quite short of a true clinical study. I've always remembered the one person (forget their name) on here who posted sub q experiences with follow-up BW that showed less than optimal Test levels. IMO everyone's different when it comes to TRT & using sub q as a delivery method...

[NWIron]

any update OP? Thoughts' on introducing clomid?

[kelkel]

Good stuff Kel, but quite short of a true clinical study. I've always remembered the one person (forget their name) on here who posted sub q experiences with follow-up BW that showed less than optimal Test levels. IMO everyone's different when it comes to TRT & using sub q as a delivery method...

Agree. There's a newer one out there, I just couldn't find it quickly!

[powerlifterty16]

what do you guys think of this?
What Happens to Cholesterol Levels on the HCG Diet? - YouTube

[ZenFitness]

hCG diet and hCG for TRT are two different animals. The hCG diet is essentially a crash diet - isn't it like 1100 - 1300 calories a day? I'd stay away from that crap.

[powerlifterty16]

hCG diet and hCG for TRT are two different animals. The hCG diet is essentially a crash diet - isn't it like 1100 - 1300 calories a day? I'd stay away from that crap.

meant hcg and cholesterol lol.

[61er]

I'm curious why the OP wants hCG only vs. test or test+hCG? Not criticizing... just curious.

Was on Test alone, via pellet injections every four months. It proved very effective, but the pellets are invasive and the injection site can be very sore for several days. Endo said he'd moved some of his patient to hcg -only, with some success. So I said let's give it a try. Adding Test is an option, but as I said at the top of the tread, this is an experiment and so far it's a tough call. Rather be on one treatment than two, all things being equal.

[61er]

young guys want to avoid trt if possible. idk how old op is. i dont think hcg permanently if at all shut you down....i was on it and ddidnt get shut down.

I'm 52...

[61er]

any update OP? Thoughts' on introducing clomid?

I'll discuss with endo. Thanks.

Did a quick search. This link was helpful. Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) in Men - A Testosterone Alternative