20 Years old , low test.

**Myers** · 10-11-2014, 05:30 AM

Testosterone 37.50 nmol/l 5.54-25.20 CLIA
Free Test 15.4 pg/ml 2.6-9.8 ELISA

Now the suprise :
T3 1.786 nmol/l 0.8-2.95 CLIA
T4 129.17 nmol/l 60-153 CLIA
TSH 2.907 uIU/ml 0.42-5.45 CLIA

This is the new bloodwork, going to doc next week.

**kelkel** · 10-11-2014, 10:08 AM

No FT3, FT4, RT3, Antibodies?

**Myers** · 10-11-2014, 11:28 AM

Gonna do the rest when i see doc , lol i think i told them in the lab to do FT3 and FT4 , gonna go again anyway , still if my FT3 and FT4 are low and T3 and T4 are normal would that mean my system isn't using that t3 and t4 correctly? I need some insight on this(really wanna understand how it works).
Although my TSH did drop down , which is i guess better?

**kelkel** · 10-11-2014, 03:40 PM

Myers have you done any reading here yet: Stop the Thyroid Madness™ - Hypothyroidism and thyroid mistreatment

**Myers** · 10-12-2014, 03:20 AM

Yeah i read about medicines , and that TSH is not a good indicator of the thyroid health , but it's gonna be hard to convince the doc , they are prettymuch "God-like" here
So looking at these results and if i get FT3 and FT4 and RT3 and antibodies , and if something is off in that case it would mean my thyroid is making the hormones but they aren't being used correctly, right?

**kelkel** · 10-12-2014, 10:14 AM

With the proper tests you can then accurately assess thyroid function. Without them you're guessing.

**Myers** · 11-20-2014, 03:24 PM

Well i've finally got time to post up all the things :

I've went to a doc like 5 weeks ago as soon as i ended my therapy , showed him my results , he said they are good , your test should stay near levels you achieved with therapy (u can see my earlier posts) , he said my thyroid was never an issue and bla bla (i didn't like that part but oh well, i needed his confirmation so i can get my gyno surgery done).
NOW he told me to come back in february so he can check my test.

I was on clomid therapy for 3 months , i stopped with it 5 weeks ago and did bloodwork last week(that's 5th week) , here are the results:

TEST - 17.7 nmol/l ............................ref range: 5.54 - 25.2 CLIA
Free Test - 5.3 pg/ml .........................2.6-9.8 ELISA - THIS is the problem , there's almost no difference before and now ( it was 5.2 so i guess 0.1 increase is miserable).

Antibodies 12 IU/ml ................ref: <35 CLIA
FT4 - 16.57 pmol/l................10.3-23.1 CLIA
FT3 - 3.25 pmol/l ....................2.15-6.45 CLIA

I can't go to another doc before my gyno removal surgery in january , and i don't know where to find another ( i've went to the best hospital we got in my country + u wait literally months to even get an appointment , i've had to pay to get mine earlier). So i guess i should just convince him next time to either prescribe me test or to treat my thyroid(the 2nd one is gonna be harder though) .

Now what do u guys think? I'm really starting to feel hopeless + i'm feeling sleepy again all the time and my energy seems to be getting lower

**dw3fan** · 11-20-2014, 03:49 PM

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**Myers** · 11-20-2014, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by dw3fan

Im 19 I have a similiar problem as you read my thread on the main page.
Ive been on clomid for 2 weeks now, doc guaranteed by the time I come off clomid my test will stay high, but yours didnt? My TSH is 3.11 so im gonna go look into sub-clinical hypothyroidism next week. Dude be happy you can sleep all the time, Low test gives me insomnia that drives me crazy. I wouldnt sleep for 4 nights in a row at a time a month ago and I was losing my mind and just wanted to die. Its horrible.

I think the main problem is doctors are so convinced that medicine today is all knowing , i believe there are the factors in our bodies that are not yet discovered by modern medicine and science and that make impact on our hormones and whole system , i wish u all the luck with your therapy and I really hope it will work out for you 100% !

**dw3fan** · 11-20-2014, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Myers

I think the main problem is doctors are so convinced that medicine today is all knowing , i believe there are the factors in our bodies that are not yet discovered by modern medicine and science and that make impact on our hormones and whole system , i wish u all the luck with your therapy and I really hope it will work out for you 100% !

delete

**Myers** · 11-21-2014, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by dw3fan

Thanks man, so since clomid didnt produce permanent results for you are you going to jump on trt?

Problem is my country is lacking 20 years of knowledge in modern medicine , TRT is a new thing here now , and as kel said in previous posts that thyroid might be the root of my problem , point is our scales are outdated but docs are still working with those , it's really hard to convince any doctor here that u might know something that he doesn't ( they think of themselves like gods) so i was trying to convince him to treat my thyroid but it's hitting the wall , he wasn't even thinking about that , so yea i might just end up on TRT , but i've already accepted that as a possibility.

**kelkel** · 11-21-2014, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Myers

Well i've finally got time to post up all the things :

I've went to a doc like 5 weeks ago as soon as i ended my therapy , showed him my results , he said they are good , your test should stay near levels you achieved with therapy (u can see my earlier posts) , he said my thyroid was never an issue and bla bla (i didn't like that part but oh well, i needed his confirmation so i can get my gyno surgery done).
NOW he told me to come back in february so he can check my test.

I was on clomid therapy for 3 months , i stopped with it 5 weeks ago and did bloodwork last week(that's 5th week) , here are the results:

TEST - 17.7 nmol/l ............................ref range: 5.54 - 25.2 CLIA
Free Test - 5.3 pg/ml .........................2.6-9.8 ELISA - THIS is the problem , there's almost no difference before and now ( it was 5.2 so i guess 0.1 increase is miserable).

Antibodies 12 IU/ml ................ref: <35 CLIA
FT4 - 16.57 pmol/l................10.3-23.1 CLIA
FT3 - 3.25 pmol/l ....................2.15-6.45 CLIA

I can't go to another doc before my gyno removal surgery in january , and i don't know where to find another ( i've went to the best hospital we got in my country + u wait literally months to even get an appointment , i've had to pay to get mine earlier). So i guess i should just convince him next time to either prescribe me test or to treat my thyroid(the 2nd one is gonna be harder though) .

Now what do u guys think? I'm really starting to feel hopeless + i'm feeling sleepy again all the time and my energy seems to be getting lower

Total Test level is slightly above mid-range
Free T is still low. Do you know what your shbg level is? Vitamin D level?
Thyroid is still possibly indicative of sub-clinical hypothyroidism if your tsh is still elevated like a previous post. Which can cause fatigue. Do some research on Iodine (Kelp) for your thyroid. May be a good first step for you.
Many things can cause fatigue such as adrenal issues or iron deficiency as well.

**Myers** · 11-21-2014, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Total Test level is slightly above mid-range
Free T is still low. Do you know what your shbg level is? Vitamin D level?
Thyroid is still possibly indicative of sub-clinical hypothyroidism if your tsh is still elevated like a previous post. Which can cause fatigue. Do some research on Iodine (Kelp) for your thyroid. May be a good first step for you.
Many things can cause fatigue such as adrenal issues or iron deficiency as well.

Yeap total test level is , but i'm guessing since the free test dropped , total will drop too in some time?
Nope didn't check shbg and vitamin D levels .
About iodine , i'm eating food that contain iodine every day , started doing that since my 1st bloodwork.
Don't have problems with iron deficiency , i've had them when i was a kid , but solved and still checking that few times a year.

So i guess my next bw should containt shbg and vitamin D levels? Free test was good as u can see in previous posts while i was on therapy. Now it went back to where it was

**kelkel** · 11-21-2014, 11:28 AM

Maybe, maybe not. Other variables involved.
Always good to know those levels. SHBG (and albumin) is what binds your testosterone . Goal is to be midstream here. Quickest way to lower shbg is to elevate test.
D is classified as a vitamin but it's actually a hormone. Most in North America are deficient.

**Myers** · 11-22-2014, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Maybe, maybe not. Other variables involved.
Always good to know those levels. SHBG (and albumin) is what binds your testosterone . Goal is to be midstream here. Quickest way to lower shbg is to elevate test.
D is classified as a vitamin but it's actually a hormone. Most in North America are deficient.

Alright , i'll include shbg and vit D in my next bw , since doc said "Don't bother doing total test next time , do just free one" , should i just show him that it hasn't moved from the beginning value and that therapy didn't work lol , but i can bet he's gonna prescribe me test then...

**kelkel** · 11-22-2014, 10:33 AM

At your age you need to persevere and find the cause Myers. TRT is the last thing you want at your age.

**Myers** · 11-25-2014, 06:19 AM

I will do that , tell me , should i wait for my gyno surgery and pretend i didn't get these results , or go to my endo right now(but my gyno surgery might get postponed again) ? I mean with my test going low again is there a chance i will develop gyno again after the surgery?

If so , i'll just schedule another appointment with endo and that's it , interesting thought , now that i went trough things he wrote , i saw "Hypothyreosis subclinical" , so he did notice my crappy thyroid...I hope he might take things seriously now since the therapy number 1. didn't work.

**kelkel** · 11-25-2014, 09:42 AM

If surgery is needed, get it. If you're referring to the infamous "estrogen rebound" it's way over-blown.

**Myers** · 02-05-2015, 02:43 PM

Hello I'm back again , i had a gyno surgery and I'm out from gym for almost a month now , starting again on monday , meanwhile i went to endo and well i was dissapointed , as u can see my previous BW results my free test dropped back to it's original value , endo said "Oh well okay , we can give u the clomid therapy again , but at lower dose this time , 12.5 mcg every 2 days to get u in the higher range but that's it" - needless to say i feel like shit again , even my parents noticed and i've got a lot of support from them...

But that endo lol whole appointment was like 10 minutes , guy barely listened to me, im finally sick of it , searching for a new one now..

Gonna talk to dad's friend who is urologist in a day or two to see if he can help me out somehow...

That clomid therapy 12.5 mcg every 2 days sounds a bit pointless , it's for 3 months again , i just dont wanna be on high range for 3 months and then drop to low again for 4 months etc..

At least my chest looks good now without that gyno

**Myers** · 02-07-2015, 08:33 AM

What do u ppl think about the therapy that doc gave me? 12.5 mcg clomid every 2nd day?

Found 2 new endos that might fit the cause , 1 is specialised in gonads and has a clinic for male/female hormone problems , so should i just get a new endo?

P.S.: Btw i "proudly" present u the 1st country that doesn't produce testosterone anymore because our only big pharmaceutical company closed , we also lack cytostatics .. things went to hell here , i guess if i end up on trt i'll have to get my test somewhere else..

**Myers** · 02-13-2015, 11:01 AM

Update ! I found a new endo , dude found the source of my problem , it's that low LH that i have. - As i checked his bio. he seems to be one of the top guys in the country.

My mother had complications during my birth so i almost ended up dead( i was w/o oxygen for some time - it's a miracle i ended up normal) , that's the reason probably that cells that produce LH got fuked up - he said even if he put me on thyroid medications it wouldn't help the LH.

Anyway he prescribed me TRT protocol , I'll be using Nebido 5 times a year, before that he's gonna put me on testosterone depo for 2 months(some low dose like 200 mg a month just to see how i respond) and then he will see if nebido dose needs adjusting.

Any thoughts ?

**kelkel** · 02-13-2015, 11:33 AM

I think if you're going to start Nebido then start Nebido. There's zero need to do two months on any other form of test at this point. And 200 mg's per month is ridiculous which makes me question his knowledge of hormones Myers.

BG · 02-13-2015, 12:06 PM

Sounds like he is going to use the depot to front load the Nibido?

**Myers** · 02-13-2015, 12:17 PM

Alright , i'll have nebido in 10 days, problem is i don't know where to search anymore for endos , i hope he can't go wrong with nebido lol

**kelkel** · 02-13-2015, 02:07 PM

As long as he follows the directions there should be no issues. It will just take some time to determine how long between shots after your initial and booster. BW will answer that for you.

**Myers** · 03-10-2015, 01:57 PM

this is pretty URGENT so i hope u guys answer as soon as possible if any1 has a clue what's happening.

in 5 weeks it happened 3 times , blood vessel in my right eye exploded( don't know how to exactly write it ) , from the outside everything is normal , but my vision is blurred by that blood and it's causing me problems because i got a lot to study + i'm getting a bit afraid of what might hppen cause 2 times it happend in 1 week.
I went to a doctor all 3 times , she saw blood but not a rapture , blood vessels seem normal. I've had high blood pressure since i was like 12-13 , 140/80 usually..it was normal when i was on diet and training but since i've had gyno removal surgery, anesthesia caused me some problems - i feel like i get tired a bit faster if i walk for a long time and my heart rate increases more than it should .
The burst of the blood vessel actually happend when i was walking fast for like 10-15 mins , i felt like it was getting really hot and had to unzip my jacket but it wasn't hot outside at all. Doc thinks it's variation in BP , that it jumps from like 120 to 160 or smth , i really don't know what to do? If any1 could give me a suggestion i'd greatly appreciate it . IMPORTANT : remember i'm going on TRT in may , gonna get nebido injections , right now i took the dose my endo prescribed me 200 mg test depo a month, when i told it to endo he though that my blood vessels lack elasticity and he would supplement that but i need to do BW in the next 2 days.

So if any1 could help me out or if u had a similar problem please tell me what to do? I'm starting to panic hard...

**lovbyts** · 03-10-2015, 05:25 PM

To many variables. Could be blood pressure related and wearing something to monitor it all the time might help.

It could be mine strokes even and the will have to do an MRI. It also could just be high pressure in the eye. I get mine checked at least 2x a year and have to use drops to keep the pressure down.

Either way your doctors need to figure it out. Go to an eye specialist.

**Myers** · 03-11-2015, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

To many variables. Could be blood pressure related and wearing something to monitor it all the time might help.

It could be mine strokes even and the will have to do an MRI. It also could just be high pressure in the eye. I get mine checked at least 2x a year and have to use drops to keep the pressure down.
Either way your doctors need to figure it out. Go to an eye specialist.

Yeh checked for eye pressure - normal ,what i'm wondering is , when i get on my trt protocol , is there a chance that T back to normal range can help with my blood pressure as well? Ofc with diet in check and all, atm doc said no no for the gym for at least 2 weeks...

**lovbyts** · 03-11-2015, 06:27 AM

No idea if it will help but dont see how it coukd hurt.

I agree no gym. I had to lay off for almost 6 monthe after a detached retina surgery.

**Myers** · 05-15-2015, 09:45 AM

Anyway time to update :
1) Been on test for 2 months now , dose of 200mg per month , switching to nebido in a week , actually already felt better
2) Did bw 2 days after last test enanthate shot this is what i got : (200 mg test)
Total test 49.10 nmol/l ref.range 5.54 - 25.2 ( crappy ref.ranges but w/e ) - im over the top here
Free Testosterone 71.8 pg/ml ref.range 2.6-9.8 ( now this seems a bit high lol ) - or is the ref. range totally wrong?

3) Now i forgot to mention e2 when they drew the bloods , but i guess it kinda jumped the scale as well , since i notice more water retention , but i'll do it with my next bloods after nebido shot and will ask for the AI if needed.

4)Now i checked my thyroid also , and it actually improved :

TSH 2.100 ref. rage 0.42-5.45

FT3 4.22 pmol/l 2.76-6.45 CLIA

FT4 21.92 pmol/l 10.3-23.1 CLIA

How does that look? Last time it was worse , when i 1st went to endo it was smth like 3.25 pmol/l for FT3 and 16.57 for FT4

Now the things that aren't so good:

Vitamin D total 35.7 nmol/l 75-250 CMIA - horrible i guess? What can i supplement it with?

Beta CROSS LAPS 894.8 pg/ml ref range <704 ECLIA - probably due to low vitamin D

Copper 13.2 umol/l (i think it's micromol but i can't write that letter u) ref. range 11.0-24.0 - i've actually been supplementing this since i had problems with blood vessels , but that's okay now , gonna increase the dosage though seems im still on the low end.

Anyway , tell me your opinions of the newest BW

P.S. interesting - my free test is way higher than when on clomid therapy , and i'm actually feeling better now , guess i could rise my free test further if i started suplementing with vitamin D

**kelkel** · 05-16-2015, 11:20 AM

As you know a once per month protocol is ridiculous based on the half life of test. That said, you pulled BW at the peak of your test as it will do so within 24-48 hrs after injection. If you tested the day prior to injection your levels would be in the toilet. Thyroid numbers are not that bad Myers. Just keep an eye on them.

Vit D level is still crap. However much D3 you're taking, double it. If not taking any I'd start with 5K iu's per day taken with a large meal. You don't need to raise your FT but you should test your SHBG next time to get an idea where it's at. Then be consistent with testing while getting settled in on Nebido.

**Myers** · 05-16-2015, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

As you know a once per month protocol is ridiculous based on the half life of test. That said, you pulled BW at the peak of your test as it will do so within 24-48 hrs after injection. If you tested the day prior to injection your levels would be in the toilet. Thyroid numbers are not that bad Myers. Just keep an eye on them.

Vit D level is still crap. However much D3 you're taking, double it. If not taking any I'd start with 5K iu's per day taken with a large meal. You don't need to raise your FT but you should test your SHBG next time to get an idea where it's at. Then be consistent with testing while getting settled in on Nebido.

Yeah , i know that protocol is crap , but i just went with it as it was for 2 months and then i switch to nebido , since i have to get it from other country since mine actually STOPPED producing testosterone at all ( so horrible ) ...

Anyway i'm gonna start supplementing with vitamin D3 , so it would be good if any1 could suggest me a good supplement?

Im keeping an eye on those thyroid lvls , gonna test it every 3 months or so , cause I know that thyroid problems kinda run in the family

**kelkel** · 05-17-2015, 08:45 AM

Any D3 works, cheap is fine.

**Myers** · 05-22-2015, 01:36 PM

Starting Nebido on sunday , me and my doc keep arguing about the 2nd injection ..
I will be using Nebido every 10 weeks , but i want the 2nd "loading" injection to be 6 weeks after first one as it's written on the site of the product..he thinks it isn't necessary but kinda left on me to decide

So should i just do the 2nd one after 6 weeks? I'm gonna stick to your opinion kel and other guys

**kelkel** · 05-22-2015, 05:23 PM

Yes. Why would you not. Nebido takes time to build up hence the need (and product inserts advice) to take your second shot at 6 weeks. Keep updating this thread with your results please.

**Myers** · 05-24-2015, 01:15 PM

Took the 1st shot, damn that is one oily substance...took nurse 3-4 minutes to inject it completely. I will start bulking on monday.

Do people need AI with nebido? I'm planning to check my e2 but don't know when exactly? 2-3 weeks after the shot or...?

**kelkel** · 05-24-2015, 07:33 PM

Large volume takes time.
Some need an AI or TRT, some don't.
BW is your guide. I'd pull some bloods just prior to your 6 week booster. You'll be fine until then. Very slow ester.

**Myers** · 06-06-2015, 12:41 PM

Tomorrow's gonna be my 2nd week of nebido...nothing new to report yet.
Stats are :
192 cm
96 kg
16-17% bodyfat ( i guess i hold some water , might be less )
eating 3400-3500 calories a day, 35% 50% 15% , with cheat meal on sundays

Planning to bulk till i hit around 21-22% bf , and then to cut down to 12-13% bf

Also planing to cycle in the near future and term "near future" depends on what u guys suggest is the good time to do it? I'm having my next check up in 6 months, i can make an appointment earlier if i notice an odd thing in my BW, or if ifeel bad etc..

**Myers** · 06-23-2015, 02:03 PM

30 days since injection , booster shot in 12 days.

I can say i'm feeling pretty fine mentally , no depression , more confidence etc.

In the gym I'm really killing it now, i've gained strength : 100kg bench max (80 kg before trt) , 150 kg deadlift ( 120 before trt) , 150kg squat ( 120 before trt).
Eating at 3700 calories atm, friends and family tell me i've gained size and thickness , and i keep getting random compliments in the gym lol - not really used to that

I'm really excited to see the progress after booster shot

As i wrote in my previous post , when could i do my 1st cycle? Never did any before , i guess after around 6 months of trt?

Gonna do BW next week before booster, and i'll post it up here.

**Myers** · 07-05-2015, 01:03 PM

Anyway, i had my booster shot today , i was feeling prettymuch fine even few days before the injection , except a few depressive thoughts but that was it, didn't manage to draw bloods due to financial catastrophe that struck me last week, so i decided to do BW in 5-6 weeks after booster.

Now, injection was painless , except the nurse who was pain in the ass, she didn't bother to inject it slowly at all , injected it in 15-20 sec lol, i hope that won't affect my treatment?!!!