IGF-1 LR3 is nothing more than a expensive waste of time?

**Radio** · 07-25-2005, 01:37 PM

I got this from anabolicextreme forums, I would tend to beleive this guy, but what do you guys make of the following. And he is talking about the LR3 version.

feel like I ought to offer some more thoughts, with respect to IGF-1.

I begin by saying that I've used the stuff on myself, under several different regimens. But, more importantly, I've now worked with quite a number of other athletes, using IGF-1. In these situations, I've had control over the dosage, administration, and diet. And I've prepared the IGF-1 injectable under standardized conditions, using appropriate buffers. I would receive regular reports and observations from the users. While I do not consider my data to have a sample size which would stand a test of statistical validity, my data base is larger and better quality than the individual anecdotal observations seen in board threads.

There are a tremendous number of issues, not directly related to IGF response, and I'll discuss them, first.

There are a number of boards which are seen as authorities for good information, yet are polluted by members and mods who are directly connected with IGF dealers. Furthermore, there are buyers who have been induced to act as shills. These people never identify their roles, and they have completely muddied the waters with their hype and outright lies. For example, I know of one guy who is an IGF powder middleman, and he has managed to get himself known as an IGF "expert", even though he has absolutely no science background. He goes around from board to board belching out some of the most absurd hype I've ever seen, all the while hustling people to buy their IGF from the company he sells his powder to.

Then there are the ones who have some decent knowledge, but have gotten their knowledge all mixed up. In that thread cited, above, from the Cutting Edge Muscle board, one member posts about how good he thinks IGF is, then he offers a proposed ideal diet for maximizing the effect of IGF. Well, if you look at that diet, you will realize that you can do that diet, and put on 5-6 pounds easy, and not use any IGF-1! It's the diet that is making you grow, not the IGF!! Just ridiculous!!! Anyone should be able to see through that sort of nonsense, yet IGF is seen as such a "Holy Grail", that things like this are overlooked.

Another class of post is by those who don't fully understand what is happening, when they use IGF-1. Yes, some legit research has shown that IGF can multiply muscle fiber. But it is clear to me that the bulk of the response to IGF comes from it's ability to act as a sensational glucose disposal agent. This is the part where IGF's name, "Insulinlike", comes to the fore. IGF can send you into ketosis with ease. Good responders to IGF are hungry all the time, because the blood glucose is held low. All that glycogen is being driven into the muscles. The frequent reports of muscle fullness and vascularity is the result of muscles being pumped full of glycogen and water.

There is too little mention of the non-responders to IGF-1. They definitely exist. But identifying the percentage of them in the population is difficult, due to the way most IGF is being sold. I'll discuss that, next.

The business is rife with misinformation on how to properly prepare the IGF-1 for use. The ONLY proper way to rehydrate IGF-1 for use, where it will be at full strength and activity, is with an aqueous buffer solution, which has the proper pH and ionic(salt) content. However, it is not easy or safe for the average user to prepare such a buffer, and access to the raw materials is limited.

A couple of years ago, Animal concocted the idea of dissolving the IGF he was selling, in some BA. He perhaps did not have access to the proper buffer materials, and he came up with this idea, in order to promote his business. Well, it sort of worked. But some, if not most, of the IGF is rendered useless by this method, since you need the correct pH and ionic environment for the peptide chains to unwind. In the end, you have to use a lot of IGF, just to get the effect which you would get, if you had properly rehydrated it with a buffer. In my work, using a proper buffer, the maximum dosage per day is 30 mcg. But I've seen good results on only 15 to 20 mcg's per day. It is typical for users with the Animal type product to have to use 50 to 120 mcg per day, to see any effect at all.

Still another absurd notion is that you do not have to refridgerate the IGF in BA. I have seen some idiot "experts" recommend that "IGF-1 works better if you store it in your sock drawer".

Now, I'm a chemist, and I've worked in biochem labs, and seeing all this online nonsense about preparing IGF really makes me crazy. But, let's use a little common sense. Both IGF-1 and hGH are chain sequenced peptides. So, they are in the same family. Now, we all know that you rehydrate GH with an aqueous solution and we must store it under refridgeration. Yet, these "experts" say we can reconstitute IGF-1 with BA and it does not require any refridgeration. I ask you, have any of you ever seen anyone recommend that we reconstitute GH with BA, and that we not store it under refridgeration? I certainly never have. It seems to me that this would be a real breakthrough, right? Not a single legit biochemist has ever advocated the BA method for preparing chain sequenced peptides. Again, I have never seen one of these online "experts" advocate using BA for preparing GH, yet GH and IGF-1 are in the same family. Now, doesn't that tell you something??

So, you may begin with some active IGF in these BA preparations, but you end up with less and less, as it degrades.

Then there is the shipping. Ever wonder why we don't buy hGH in reconstituted form? Aside from having to keep it cold, all the shaking and agitation, which goes on in shipping and transportation, would destroy the peptide chains. Yet these "experts" say there's no problem in selling and transporting IGF-1 in liquid form. Are we to believe that BA creates some wondrous, new, indestructable environment for peptide chains?

So, now we go a step further. We begin with some active IGF in the BA preparation, but it degrades, and then we ship it, and then we lose still more and more.

By the time you end up with it, in your hands, there is little or no active IGF-1. So, now, how do we determine who is a IGF non-responder, and who simply has gotten a ruined bottle of IGF-1? How do we determine the full range of response in the population, when the IGF-1 in the field is of random strength and unknown concentration?

All these problems make a complete assessment of the true worth of IGF-1 very difficult. The buyer thinks he has 1000 mcg per ml of IGF-1, when, in reality, he has much less, maybe even none.

It is my contention that much of the weight gain, seen by IGF-1 users, is water. Their muscles appear to be growing, but it is glycogen and water. Some will respond in extreme. I had one user put on almost 15 pounds. All water! Three days after his IGF cycle ended, the water was gone, and so was the weight gain. So, we are mostly seeing bloat, to a greater or lessor degree, rather than spectacular muscle growth. This accounts for all the stories of giant pumps, while training on IGF-1.

I'm not convinced that there is really significant muscle growth. But I am convinced that there is bodyfat loss. As I mentioned, if your carbs are low enough, IGF-1 will get you into ketosis quickly, and then bodyfat loss will proceed accordingly.

IGF-1 is not useless. IGF-1 is, at present, a very specialized tool. I think it's best use comes with bulking. Through its very powerful glucose disposal effect, a responder is always hungry, and the nutrition is pumped into the muscles. People who have difficulty eating while bulking, may find that they have fewer problems packing in that food. But, if you're an ectomorph, that will result in a much greater food demand, since you will need to eat more to compensate for the loss in blood glucose. You will most certainly have to eat in the middle of the night, due to hunger.

IGF-1 is also useful while cutting, but it really makes you crave carbs, and, if you're not interested in going keto, then you end up having to eat more carbs than you would, otherwise. The glycogen pumping effect is anti catabolic, however.

But that's about it, as far as I'm concerned.

If you are to make the best use of IGF-1, then the preparation of the buffer will be a serious handicap. The starting materials are not easy to obtain, and the handling and storage of these chemicals is dangerous and difficult. If you prepare the buffer with the wrong pH, then you will completely destroy the IGF-1, the moment you add it to the buffer. You better know what you are doing, and have the correct equipment with which to do it.

There are so many more cost effective and productive ways to spend your money on muscle building, than with IGF-1. If you're adventurous, done plenty of research, and have a wad of cash, then go ahead and give it a try. But IGF-1 is not the Holy Grail of bodybuilding.

Have fun!
_________________
Take care, MT
AE Board Moderator and Admin.

**j martini** · 07-25-2005, 01:59 PM

Who knows. I dont think anyone knows for certain how this compound is best used.

I personally noticed fat loss and an increased appetite with it at a dose of 60mcg a day.

**j martini** · 07-25-2005, 02:02 PM

What i do agree with is IGF-1 LR3 is certainly not the holy grail of bodybuilding and you would be much better putting your cash into some AAS.

And some people do overhype it. IMO it should be used by the advanced looking for something different than AAS.

**juicehoe** · 07-25-2005, 02:06 PM

what sold me was the abilty to build new muscle fibers. I stoped gaining during a long cycle of AS... i added igf-1 and i gained 10lbs. My work outs were great and i was very pumped. Plus i felt well rested when i woke up. Worth the money to me...

**Radio** · 07-25-2005, 02:13 PM

Did you gain any actual muscle with it J martini?

**j martini** · 07-25-2005, 02:22 PM

I would guess about 5 pounds.
My weight stayed the same but i got harder.
I have run it 3 times and everytime if i keep my cals the same i actually start to lose weight so i know it definitely helps burn bodyfat.

I definitely agree with the author of the article in that it is more effective for body fat reduction than muscle gain. In addition i am of the bodY type that doesnt hold water no matter what i use, so maybe people gaining large amounts of bodyweight of it or doing so through water retention similiar to GH.

**almostgone** · 07-25-2005, 02:55 PM

...50mcg ED LR3 IGF-1 complements my GH real well......It's leaning me up more than the GH by itself and I've really noticed increased energy to go along with some decent muscle gains...

**Nicky B** · 07-25-2005, 03:01 PM

He is just 1guy that didn't get good results from it and is complaining like a little girl. And just looked for every excuse to back himself up. But he does make some good points. And I don't see how you can get good results from 15mcg's. I'm done.

**kevin69** · 07-25-2005, 03:04 PM

Bump for studies or more info on how much BA will degrade IGF-1 LR3, and more info on the buffers that can be used.

**Titan1** · 07-25-2005, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by kevin69

Bump for studies or more info on how much BA will degrade IGF-1 LR3, and more info on the buffers that can be used.

but does gropep say that Ba should be used to dilute igf-1?

**kevin69** · 07-25-2005, 04:06 PM

Ya i remembered after I posted that everywhere I can think of uses AA not BA, So same question with AA. LOL

**oswaldosalcedo** · 10-27-2005, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by j martini

What i do agree with is IGF-1 LR3 is certainly not the holy grail of bodybuilding and you would be much better putting your cash into some AAS.

And some people do overhype it. IMO it should be used by the advanced looking for something different than AAS.

i agree.

***JohnnyB*** · 10-27-2005, 10:11 AM

What I want to know is who is selling it as the holy grail?

The holy grail of BBing is "hard work" genetics play a big part too, there's no replacement for that. Some people want to skip the hard work and genetics part, you can't get around genetics. So as soon as something new comes on the seen. They began to ask if it's the answer to being lazy in the gym (not in those words), then you have people that will say anything to sell their product. Then when they don't get 20lbs of muscle, only going to the gym twice a week and eating 1500 calories, they bitch.

Everything we use will help, but it'll only help, if you work for it. Some guys will never be 200lbs. My Doc works out, he weighs about 145lbs, you could put him on gear and he would never hit 200, that's just the way it is. He doesn't have the frame to carry it. If you weigh 150lbs, eat sporadically, hit the gym 3-5x a week and use gear or whatever, if you add 50lbs of muscle, you're very blessed.

It is just about iron clad, if you work hard in the gym, eat right and use LR3, you'll see some gains with fat lose. If you don't do those things, you may as well start bitching now, cause nothing is going to give you anything, you need to work for it. There are some people that seem to need higher doses from the start, I'm blessed that 40mcg worked for me, the first time.

People looking for the holy grail are looking for easy muscle gains, that right there should tell you their mentality toward BBing. They don't want to do what it takes to build muscle, they want the quick fix and they wanted it yesterday. So people looking for the holy grail have problems to began with, they don't want to discipline or work for the muscle themselves.

They are look for a drug that will "give" it to them, cause they don't want to earn it.

JohnnyB

**ss01** · 10-27-2005, 10:38 AM

JohnnyB is right. Here's my story with BBing and IGF-1

I started lifting 15 years ago at 144 lbs lean on 5'11". I made it all the way to 214lbs not so lean, but think 194lbs VERY lean, a 50 lbs gain of pure muscle, NATURALLY. Of course, I spent those 14 years reading up, working hard, up to 12 workouts a week at times, lifting with heart-bursting intensity, eating lots of farm animals, and so on and on.

Then at some point I was at my genetic limit. I didn't feel comfortable with illegal AAS and the PH ban had just come, so I got me some IGF-1. I dosed 40mcg ED and gained a WHOLE INCH on my biceps, which was my lagging bodypart. I'm not sure how much muscle weight I put on, but I did lean out some, and added noticeable size on my arms, delts and chest, the 3 bodyparts that were the targets of injections.

Then I did my first cycle and grew very pleasantly, putting on over 10lbs of pure muscle in 6 weeks, upping my bench by 90 lbs and adding another inch to my arms. Of course the new cells created by the IGF-1 were ready to grow so that helped tremendously.

I think IGF-1 between cycles will keep anyone growing, if only from the new cells. Some people report being non-responders, but I've known a couple of those who were simply AMAZED at their gains on the NEXT gear cycle. Things aren't always what they seem.

**KEITH187** · 10-28-2005, 05:29 AM

i think igf is great i use it during pct and i not only keep my gains from cycle but i add an extra 5-10 lbs in pct which is unheard of.if you arent getting any results from igf it's either low quality or you are not a responder.
i am actually on a hgh aas cycle right now and i just started igf at 80mcg a day last week and i have been at the same weight for 3 weeks and all of a sudden bang i'm up 5lbs in a week and i know it's not from the ass because i'm at the end of my 16 week cycle and gains have stopped.so what that tells me is igf def works for me but maybee it doesnt work for everybody you just have to try it and see.

**majorpecs** · 10-28-2005, 09:53 AM

it's an interesting post.

**JAMIE720** · 10-28-2005, 10:21 AM

very good points made about the stability of pre-mixed during shipping,something ive always been wary of.Also the pumps and instant weight gain experianced by some is most definately the igf working as a glucose disposal agent much like insulin and not new muscle however it could create an environment that is optimal for muscle growth.Definately worth trying for the seasoned athlete.

***JohnnyB*** · 10-28-2005, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by JAMIE720

very good points made about the stability of pre-mixed during shipping

If it's a problem, why is HGH coming in a pre-suspended form now? Their equally sensitive peptides.

http://www.nutropin.com/patient/1_8_aq_ready.jsp

I believe that idea comes from old ideas we had about LR3. Don't forget we started out say don't buy pre-suspended LR3, to everyone carrying pre-suspended LR3, in BA, then we found out how to suspend it in AA. We've come a long way from those original ideas, but some will not move with the times, they have there reasons, but there not based in real life experience. Would it be better if we suspended our own LR3, I'd say yes, but to say buying LR3 in a pre-suspended form is a waste of money, has a bios to it. The main reason it comes suspended is price, 1mg costs more then what 1mg is being sold for suspended. So adding a profit margin to 1mg of powdered LR3, would bring it cost to twice the cost.

Besides there's been more then one Bro that has used, the powder form of LR3 from GroPep and no one's singing the high praises of using powder over, suspended. Because believe me, if it worked better that way, people would pay the extra for the added benefit.

You can read about it all the time on the boards, "Is my gear fake?" Lets see, how much food do you eat and how much do you train? I eat all day long. I didn't ask how often you eat, the question was how much do you eat. They put up what they eat and low and behold they eat a grand total of 1500 calories, hit the gym 2-3 times a week. The gears not fake, they are, If you don't eat calories to support growth I don't care how much or what you use, you're not going to grow.

I question people that feel the need to be smarter then the rest of us, they used it and it didn't work for them so it bunk. Forget about the 100(s) that have used it and had good results. There's nothing wrong with them, everyone else, are either lying or to stupid to know that something making their muscle grow and causing fat lose, really isn't working. It's a conspiracy to sell bunk products, okay. Then you get the ones that have never even tried it and they think this person is the gurus of gurus, so they spread the lie, when they have no first hand experience. Then you have the others that fit the profile of being, none eaters and sometimes go to the gym. They are looking for the quick fix, if they really trained and eat right, did a little reading they'd know there is no magic pill, to be Arnold. It comes back to disciplined eating and working hard at the gym, if you have the right genetics in the mix, it's on.

Back to pre-suspended HGH, it's suspended in an aqua solution, if it'll survive the shipping process, I would think LR3 could in an acidic solution and it has every time I've recieved it.

JohnnyB

**JAMIE720** · 10-28-2005, 06:51 PM

valid point on the stability of nutropin aq,its hard to argue with a magor company putting out a product that would be rendered useless after shipping however given the choice id rather reconstitute myself both gh and igf-1 because its cheaper for me and I personally feel more confortable knowing it hasnt been bounced around during shipping

**Big M** · 11-01-2005, 12:19 PM

Insulin is sold "pre diluted" and it is very stable, IGF-1 is more like insulin (as the name stes) than GH so I think he is wrong about it beeing destroyed

**oswaldosalcedo** · 11-05-2005, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by KEITH187

i think igf is great i use it during pct and i not only keep my gains from cycle but i add an extra 5-10 lbs in pct which is unheard of.if you arent getting any results from igf it's either low quality or you are not a responder.
i am actually on a hgh aas cycle right now and i just started igf at 80mcg a day last week and i have been at the same weight for 3 weeks and all of a sudden bang i'm up 5lbs in a week and i know it's not from the ass because i'm at the end of my 16 week cycle and gains have stopped.so what that tells me is igf def works for me but maybee it doesnt work for everybody you just have to try it and see.

5 or 10 lbs ? which is then ?
what exactness !

or maybe 4 lbs.
or nothing at all.
who knows ? with that accuracy.............

**NewBreed** · 11-08-2005, 07:52 PM

1.IGf is much more stable than Slin and the stability up to two years at room temp ist backed up by GroPep.

2.IGf isn´t easily destroyed by BA it´s just not folded properly while in it but it will be, when entering the blood with the right PH-enviroment.

3.I´m not interested in gaining muscle, only power and IGf did both and at 60mcg/day I saw results immediately in the mirror; after 3 day I knew I wasn´t wrong.And this was no placebo as my results in competion shew.

4.Who knows maybe there´s some partial scamming.-Don´t know if it would pay???

5.My results from it varied with the same batch for reasons don´t know.

**dirtymike** · 11-08-2005, 10:23 PM

Anyone experience strength gains off igf-1? I never really hear about that.

**inevitable** · 11-14-2005, 11:38 AM

IGF-1 made me harden up and i actually put on 7lbs... all i did was stick to my game plan and bust my ass.... o and i also lost that fcking babyfat i couldn't get rid of.... GOD DAM i love this shit!

**BUYLONGTERM** · 11-14-2005, 12:57 PM

Sign Me Up!!!!!

**Shaka** · 11-14-2005, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by dirtymike

Anyone experience strength gains off igf-1? I never really hear about that.

I've learned that sometimes what people DON'T say is as informative as what they do...

Most of the people that have used IGF-1 usually claim that it helps with muscle hardness and fat loss. The fact that strength gains are NOT mentioned should tell you it's not a MAJOR benefit from IGF use...

On the other hand, if someone mentioned A-bombs they usually first mention the phenomenal strength and size gains and DON'T usually mention hardness and fat loss for obvious reasons...

***JohnnyB*** · 11-14-2005, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Shaka

I've learned that sometimes what people DON'T say is as informative as what they do...

Most of the people that have used IGF-1 usually claim that it helps with muscle hardness and fat loss. The fact that strength gains are NOT mentioned should tell you it's not a MAJOR benefit from IGF use...

On the other hand, if someone mentioned A-bombs they usually first mention the phenomenal strength and size gains and DON'T usually mention hardness and fat loss for obvious reasons...

Nice interpretation Bro, if your looking for strength gains LR3 isn't the #1 choice.

JohnnyB

**dirtymike** · 11-14-2005, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Nice interpretation Bro, if your looking for strength gains LR3 isn't the #1 choice.

JohnnyB

I was just curious. Most people don't relate winstrol with strength gains only as a cutter, but my strength went through the roof on it. I'm just looking to add a little bit of quality muscle. I wil be starting my igf-1 this month so I'll post my personal results.

***JohnnyB*** · 11-14-2005, 05:32 PM

What I find interesting about this thread, is the person that started it, never posted again. I'm not sure if that means he has nothing to say about this, he's convinced that it does work, he just wanted to say what he feels with no experience or he doesn't want to discuss this because he knows nothing about LR3, but believes the writer of his cut and paste.

JohnnyB

**Shaka** · 11-15-2005, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What I find interesting about this thread, is the person that started it, never posted again. I'm not sure if that means he has nothing to say about this, he's convinced that it does work, he just wanted to say what he feels with no experience or he doesn't want to discuss this because he knows nothing about LR3, but believes the writer of his cut and paste.

JohnnyB

Good point JohnnyB, he seems non-existent on the subject... Ah well!

**400mtrackstar** · 11-17-2005, 05:01 AM

As a sprinter I can with 100% certainly tell you that on 40mcg post workout
my recovery was much much faster
my strength went up
slept deeper
didnt gain fat but ate like crazy
Its deff worth it to me but for a body builder is 2lbs really worth $200. I can see it being worth it if you are bridgeing your cycles as I have heard it helps maintain gains.