191 vs 192

**rawdog** · 06-14-2006, 08:18 PM

what is difference between the two? i'm thinking that i want to try a cycle of hgh, but i've got a lot of research to do...
thanks,r

**rawdog** · 06-15-2006, 09:10 AM

thanks baron! great reply. how much would i need to see if i'll have any adverse effects? also what side effects have been seen with the 192aa?
thanks, rawdog

**oldman** · 06-15-2006, 09:54 AM

Red that is a great info there is so much hegative info on 192aa and this is the first I have seen why or what it means.

I don't think I will change from Jin but let me ask this if you know.. If someone has a bad reaction to it is this something they see right away or are you going to have to take it for 6 months and then see issues?

This is just for me own personal knowledge.

~Old

***SPIKE*** · 06-15-2006, 04:48 PM

See that's the thing RB, what if the reactions are taking place physiologically? You can't exactly see or feel if your body is building an immunity to 192aa. That's what I'm afraid of. I completely see what you're talking about buddy and have never ever disagreed with anything you've ever said, and still don't now :-).

The sides I've commonly seen with 192aa are red welts at injection sites. Some are itchy and big enough to force people to go against protocol and inject IM .vs. their normal Sub-Q routine. But what if your body is building up and immunity to the 192 and viewing it as an intruder of some sort, then what happends when you cease administration and endo GH levels are out of sync due to the antibodies? Then what? That's my biggest fear.

I mean think about it, who wouldn't want to pay 1 third of the price for GH yielding the same external results? I for sure would love to pay much less with the same outcome. It's the slight 1/3-1/2 that RB spoke about that scares me. I don't have much luck with these things and I know dam well I'd drop right into that catergory in a heartbeat.

**Whitey** · 06-15-2006, 05:48 PM

Interesting point, J. I don't know if I've ever thought about it that way. I think I figured if your body builds up antibodies and attacks the 192aa molecule, it would render it ineffective, and that would be that.

The red welts at the injection site (which I have experienced) are indicative of an allergic (histamine) reaction. But I still saw results from the GH. The itching and lumpiness was my only problem. And yes, a big enough problem to switch brands, for me.

**rawdog** · 06-15-2006, 07:02 PM

do you guys think that the extra aa changes the structure that dramaticaly? my guess would be that if an antibody was produced it wuld be for the extra aa, and not the other 191....?

**slimsc** · 06-16-2006, 01:15 AM

great info red... thanks

**G-Force** · 06-16-2006, 03:08 AM

any opinions on the difference in gains between the two?

**Rolsroyce** · 06-16-2006, 05:25 AM

If you did build up antibodies to the 192aa will it render the 191aa and your natural GH inaffective? You know of any studies on this Jay or Red? Thanks guys...

**Ufa** · 06-16-2006, 07:14 AM

I'll stick with the real deal.

**G-Force** · 06-16-2006, 07:26 AM

have i made a mistake buying 300ius of 192 aa then?

**Ufa** · 06-16-2006, 07:29 AM

Well, if you don't get a rash at sub-q site, or any other negative sides. No biggie. I haven't heard of any long term damage. It is approved by FDA.

**G-Force** · 06-16-2006, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Ufa

Well, if you don't get a rash at sub-q site, or any other negative sides. No biggie. I haven't heard of any long term damage. It is approved by FDA.

no rash, no sides - but am only at the end of the first week

i was just wandering if the gains would be less?

**Ufa** · 06-16-2006, 07:34 AM

Personally I think gains are gains. What you see is what you get. People tent to over state negative sides. Who knows you might have better gains.

**RedBaron** · 06-16-2006, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ufa

Well, if you don't get a rash at sub-q site, or any other negative sides. No biggie. I haven't heard of any long term damage. It is approved by FDA.

Where would you get the idea that ANY of the Chinese HGH's are FDA approved. There are about 6-8 American brands that are on the FDA blessed list ... and that is it!

**Ufa** · 06-16-2006, 10:31 AM

RedBarron I was talking about 192aa. I was refering to Genetech's Protropin that uses somatrem, which is a 192 amino acid variant.

It is also known as Nutropin Depot It is mentioned in Anabolics 2006 (362)

I use Saizen.

**Ufa** · 06-16-2006, 10:39 AM

I think it's a money issue and any body that can afford US - GH will not take chances with a substance as fragile as GH.

I thinks it's interesting how Serano got around Genentech's patent by using
mammalian cells to grow its growth hormone rather than Genentech's patented method of making it in the bacterial cells of E.coli.

**RedBaron** · 06-16-2006, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Ufa

RedBarron I was talking about 192aa. I was refering to Genetech's Protropin that uses somatrem, which is a 192 amino acid variant.

It is also known as Nutropin Depot It is mentioned in Anabolics 2006 (362)

I use Saizen.

It is true that in 1984 the FDA blessed Genetech's Protropin. It is also true that shortly after that Humatrope came along as the first 191aa bio-identical HGH, and after Genetech threw a hissy trying to stop it from coming to market, the fact that it was bio-identical and as such a different amino acid structure, the FDA gave it the nod.

Genetech doesn't make Protropin anymore ... and their replacement product Nutropin is 191aa, just like all of the other American HGH's of today. The studies that you find referencing the safety of 192aa all come from Genetech ... who had a vested interest in promoting their product to doctors. And even to go a step beyond that, how many FDA approved drugs through the years have had to be re-evaluated due to "new evidence" with respect to safety.

So what we are left with is as I mentioned above in the thread. Genetech got out of the 192aa game and into the 191aa game to stay a viable player in the HGH market. The Chinese for the most part are using 1984 technology and still pumping out 192aa. Is that bad? Not necessarily. But we certainly can't make a case for it being superior in any way ... and we can make a case for some people negatively reacting to it. So with that we put out a general "buyer beware" statement. It isn't saying that 192aa is definitely going to cause you problems ... it is just that it isn't bio-identical, and it is coming from countries without the ba-zillion dollar budgets to have state of the art, leading edge technologies ... so if you react negatively to it, my suggestion is you leave it alone and save your cash for the 191aa stuff.

**Ufa** · 06-16-2006, 01:49 PM

RedBaron - you are a true scholar. Makes me rethink everything Llewellyn has written. Your meticulous attention to detail is to be commended.

***SPIKE*** · 06-16-2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Rolsroyce

If you did build up antibodies to the 192aa will it render the 191aa and your natural GH inaffective?

Originally Posted by RedBaron

Does that mean it will make it of no effect or somehow turn your body hostile against your own HGH? That is the million dollar question. I don't think anyone has the answer to that.

I"m with RB, I have not ready any indefinite studies but would not take the risk as a guinea pig in finding out. The reason that I dont think there are many studies on it are for similar reasons as RB once again stated:

Originally Posted by RedBaron

As far as American studies, I don't think they have invested a lot of energy in that question ... we use HGH for young children with growth problems ... and American brand 191aa at that. Most of the studies you find are for that group of individuals ... not even adults with GHD.

Considering what GH is medically used for, they run tests utilizing 191aa in real life cases then experimenting with 192aa. Linear growth an even Growth Hormone Deficinecy will all have sudies to back their progress with 191 so its difficult for us to build an hypothesis on what the longterm effect(s) will be.

Some of the Patented brands that RB spoke about are all 191aa. Nutropin is actually one of the only if only suspended 191aa that I know of patended by the US. US really has some great brands but the price is insane.

***SPIKE*** · 06-16-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ufa

RedBaron - you are a true scholar. Makes me rethink everything Llewellyn has written. Your meticulous attention to detail is to be commended.

**rawdog** · 06-16-2006, 09:28 PM

so how much should a trial run consist of to check for sides, or will it vary person to person?

**Rolsroyce** · 06-16-2006, 09:37 PM

thanks Red and Jay, great answers guys.....

**rawdog** · 06-17-2006, 08:56 AM

cool thanks rb!

**rawdog** · 06-17-2006, 09:00 AM

if i don't have any reaction would a six month cycle be ok with 192? i was told that it's not ideal for long periods/cycles.
thanks,raw

***SPIKE*** · 06-17-2006, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by rawdog

if i don't have any reaction would a six month cycle be ok with 192? i was told that it's not ideal for long periods/cycles.
thanks,raw

As RB stated in his last post, after the initial few injections you should experience some adverse sides.

I had a few friends (3 to be exact) run a 192aa at the same time. They came across the source and all gave it a whirl simultaneously. Two out of the 3 experienced immediate red, itchy lumps at injection sites and the other was fine. When they ran it by me I wasn't too familar with 192aa as I am now but told them to stop,(seems 192 is more common these days around boards due to price and availability). The one who didnt experience sides kept going and didn't see much of any gains. The other 2 stopped. I remember talking about this over a year ago. I'll try to find the thread but willl be almost impossible.

Raw, in your above statement how long you do consider a "long" period? Seems you want to run it for 6 months but was advised that "long" periods should be avoided. IMO GH is most benefictial the longer you use it, 4-6 months as a bare minimum. So that would rule out any 192aa if "long" periods are out of the question.

**rawdog** · 06-18-2006, 01:46 PM

jay thanks for the reply. i want to try it for six months. i was under the impression that six months should show solid gains, and what i'd be looking at if i continued.
thanks,r

***SPIKE*** · 06-18-2006, 04:36 PM

R, let us know how it goes buddy. I'd be looking forward to some feedback.

**G-Force** · 06-19-2006, 02:17 AM

jay

u say one of your friends continued with 192aa but didnt see much if any gains?

how long was he runnnig it for and at what dose?
are there any possible reasons for his lack of gains?

***SPIKE*** · 06-19-2006, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by G-Force

jay

u say one of your friends continued with 192aa but didnt see much if any gains?

how long was he runnnig it for and at what dose?
are there any possible reasons for his lack of gains?

I remember he didnt run it very long (3-4 months or so). It was his first run and you know how that goes

. When peopel dont know about GH they think 2 kits makes you huge, little do they know.

I'm sure his results were a reflection of his overall effort combined with some crappy GH. He's not exaclty a "hardcore" lifter. A hardcore juicer yes, but a hardcore lifter he is far from.

I have heard of some receiving great gains from 192aa, just not often. I was very close minded to 192aa for myself but can actually benefit others. At least from what studies and personal feedback has shown me over the past years.

**G-Force** · 06-20-2006, 02:23 AM

yeah my first run was shit - i think it was jin (is that 192 or 191?)

thats why i'm worried that this cycle isnt going to achieve anything either

first time was 6months - no results at all
ive decided to try again a year or so later

**Ejuicer** · 06-20-2006, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by G-Force

yeah my first run was shit - i think it was jin (is that 192 or 191?)

Jin is 191aa.

**G-Force** · 06-20-2006, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ejuicer

Jin is 191aa.

in that case its probably good i got 192 this time since i didnt gain off the jin
thanks

***SPIKE*** · 06-20-2006, 11:41 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm its always easy to ride it off on the gear. We'd need some more details here but I know you're educated G.

Did you get the kits direct? Were the refridgerated? How did you take it and when?

**Ufa** · 06-20-2006, 11:53 AM

Jay has a good point. Jin is sometimes handled improperly before the guy you get it form gets it. It is very fragile. Sometimes it's not so good. If you got the bucks try Saizen. It does not have to be refigerated before reconstitution.
I pay the differene.
Hope thinge work out for you.

**G-Force** · 06-21-2006, 01:50 AM

well thats the thing u see - i wasnt convinced about the handling of the jin
a mate of mine brought it all back from america and claimed to yhave kept it cool with several cool bags

in the back of my mind i cant help but think they had been damaged in transist

i have generic 192aa blue top from china this time (and from a very reliable source)

***SPIKE*** · 06-21-2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by G-Force

in the back of my mind i cant help but think they had been damaged in transist

I'd wonder that very same thing if I were you. Getting then through a person .vs. a direct source can be troublesome.

Sometimes you even see some kits that are about to expire or have already and people ask "Are the still good." We've seen a few threads on that. The answer is, if you know the person or they were yours to begin with and you took good care of them they should still be fine (depending on the date). If you dont know their route of transit over the past few years then why bother.

Good luck with the 192 G, keep us posted buddy.

**Maldorf** · 06-21-2006, 09:56 PM

Im running the blue top 192 aa HGH and am in the third week now. Just built up to 4 IU/day. Doing it 5on 2 off. So far all I have experienced is some fat loss, which is actually decent. Im using clenbuterol with it though, so its hard to seperate the results. I just hit 4IU/day today though, and so I would expect most of my results will follow in the next few months. This is my first run with HGH. havent had any of these red welts everyone speaks of, just a bit of redness the first couple of injections and thats it.

***SPIKE*** · 06-22-2006, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Maldorf

havent had any of these red welts everyone speaks of, just a bit of redness the first couple of injections and thats it.

That's a dam godo thing, keep it going and keep us posted as well..

**Maldorf** · 06-22-2006, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jayhova

That's a dam godo thing, keep it going and keep us posted as well..

I have begun to get a bit of numbness in my hands when I wake up in the morning. Woke me up once during the night. other than that, no big side effects. At 4IU/day now.