HGH Induces Type 2 Diabetes?

[johnsomebody]

There's a good discussion about the possibility of HGH use inducing Type 2 (i.e. "adult onset") diabetes at http://forums.steroid.com//showthrea...light=diabetes

The last post is...
"But anyways, I talked to a doctor...and one who would actually tell me the truth..not one of those doctors who says everything is harmful and AS is the devil. He said that any raise in GH--be it exogenous or endogenous--can lead to diabetes in one pre-disposed. He says it is a common side-effect of GH."

There's a study at http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/1455 that indicates insulin resistance (the bad guy of Type 2) even at low levels (for HGH replacement). They found insulin resistance persisted months after discontinuing.. "Regardless of this, the untoward effect of GH on glucose metabolism persisted after 6 months."

So it looks like HGH induced insulin resistance may not reverse even long after discontinuing. Anybody know if there's a final word on the relationship between HGH and the potential for Type 2?

[vermin]

Interesting read - it is worth noting that in their study a 220lb man would get about 27iu/week, and they were treated ed, not 5/2. They considered this to be a "low" dosage, compared to other studies. Also it seems odd they mixed males and females in this study.

Throughout the study they make the classic error of assuming that a failure to find a difference is the equivalent of there being no difference. One may test both Beta and Alpha levels, and to assert no difference one must do so. I suspect that a power analysis would reveal that this study is woefully inadequate, particularly considering their patient population (nearly all sick, mixed gender, etc.). When I see such pervasive ignorance of basic statistics it tends to raise red flags.

Overall I would give this study a "D": Their only real conclusion: "It is thus important to monitor glucose tolerance during long-term treatment with even moderate doses of GH." This really is nothing new, and nothing a responsible physician is not already doing.

Their biggest failing: They indicate that they can detect a difference between the populations on the measured criteria (=statistical "significance"), but they fail to correlate this difference to a metabolic concern (=medical "significance"). For example: what, if anything does it mean after six months to have B-glucose go from 4.5 (mmol/liter) to 4.8 (mmol/liter)? Aren't these still both normal measures? I'd hope so, because the placebo group dropped almost as much as the study group increased, so if .3 B-glucose is metabolically significant then both groups are in trouble.

[johnsomebody]

Thanks guys for the responses. It looks like monitoring blood glucose ought to be something that anyone who uses HGH in bodybuilding should do -just like monitoring Blood Pressure should go with steroid use .

The study Einstein mentions at the AR page I mentioned says "Regardless of the exact mechanisms, the insulin antagonistic effects may cause concern when replacing adult GH deficient patients with GH, since some of these patients are insulin resistant in the untreated state."

So wouldn't it be reasonable for anyone who plans on using HGH to be sure first that their blood sugar levels aren't high -which I understand is the most common indicator of insulin resistance?

RedBaron, since you use HGH do you use insulin with it as well?

[vermin]

Can HGH under the right circumstances cause significant insulin resistance? Absolutely. Is the definition of insulin resistance taken to the extreme a.k.a. type II diabetes? Yep. The problem is in making a blanket statement that HGH = Type II diabetes. That isn't so.

I think that seems like the most useful summary. Making that final link is what seems largely missing. Remember: the guys who write these papers often tend to inflate the relative importance of their findings because their funding/careers depend on it. Been there, seen it, got the t-shirt and got outta there because I didn't want to do it.

[Ufa]

Sounds like B.S. to me.

[johnsomebody]

Okay, I've been researching HGH and Type 2 and here's a summary of what I've found from the research, with links where possible:

"The diabetogenic effect of somatropin [i.e. HGH] is well-known in clinical medicine."
http://www.rxcarecanada.com/Saizen.asp?prodid=1552
This is a common phrase in almost all the studies I've read.

"Cases of new onset impaired glucose intolerance, new onset Type 2 diabetes mellitus and exacerbation of preexisting diabetes mellitus have been reported in patients receiving Serostim®."
http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/recen...g/090303a.html

"Patients with risk factors for glucose intolerance,such as obesity (including obese patients with PWS) or a family history of Type II diabetes, should be monitored closely as well. Because growth hormone may induce a state of insulin resistance, patients should be observed for evidence of glucose intolerance."
http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/SAFETY/2...otropin_pi.pdf.

A study on mice concludes that "chronic elevation of GH levels plays a major role in insulin resistance."
http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/1/96

Monitoring blood glucose levels may not be much help because after just 5 days of GH treatment in one study "70% more insulin was required to maintain normoglycaemia", apparently due to increased insulin resistance.
http://www.clinsci.org/cs/102/cs1020457.htm

The conclusion of another study with rats: "hGH rapidly induces persistent peripheral insulin resistance and basal hyperinsulinemia."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum

Another study on rats found that "regular exercise training prevents GH-induced insulin-resistance side effect in rats." Which may be the only good news I found in all this. The only downside was each daily dose of GH was followed by three hours of exercise comprised of the rat swimming (for its life, apparently).
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB...rtikelNr=73955

Decreased insulin sensitivity is linked with increased cardiovascular risk and is a symptom of hypopituitarism, which can be treated with HGH. One study showed that "rather than lead to an improvement in insulin resistance in hypopituitarism, GH treatment may actually make it worse."
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...mlok7of8.alice


"We have studied the effects on body composition and metabolism of a fixed low dose of growth hormone ( HGH ), 0.6 IU (0.2 mg)/day, administered for 12 months to HGH-deficient adults.... This regimen led to an elevation of insulin levels and a worsening of the insulin resistance index."
Eur J Endocrinol. 2005 Jan;152(1):67-75.

Just wanted to post these for discussion. I'm still trying to decide if I want to use the stuff myself.

[Ufa]

If you are going to be a parrot you have to look deeper into these studies. Who do you think the control group was. Mice, dwarf's, ect. How old are these studies. If you want something current look at the Saizen slip sheet.
Read the PDR. If you have diabetes and eat sugar or booze. GH is not for
you. If you don't eat 2 hr before or 2 hr after it is a non issue.

[gixxerboy1]

If you don't eat 2 hr before or 2 hr after it is a non issue.

Know what you are talking about before you post stuff. Just because you quote the slip sheet doesn't make you an expert.

I'm a diabetic and take hgh. I take 4iu's once a day at night before bed. That 4ius effects my blood sugar all day long. I check it between 4-7 times a day. And if i stop hgh it takes about 2 days for my sugars to return to normal. It definitely makes you more insulin resistant.

[Ufa]

Know what you are talking about before you post stuff. Just because you quote the slip sheet doesn't make you an expert.

I'm a diabetic and take hgh. I take 4iu's once a day at night before bed. That 4ius effects my blood sugar all day long. I check it between 4-7 times a day. And if i stop hgh it takes about 2 days for my sugars to return to normal. It definitely makes you more insulin resistant.

Well, excuse the confusion. I stated that if you are diabetic you should not take GH. If you are (healthy) don't eat 2 hr before or after. Never stated
it would not make any one more insulin resistant.

Question: Being diabetic; why do you take hgh?

[gixxerboy1]

Question: Being diabetic; why do you take hgh?

I thought you said if you are daibetic AND eat sugar and booze you shouldnt take gh

Why wouldnt i take gh. I still get all the benefits you do

[johnsomebody]

Parrot Schmarrot. The question I posted is if you have a genetic predisposition to Type 2 diabetes, should you use HGH?

The first quote "The diabetogenic effect of somatropin [i.e. HGH] is well-known in clinical medicine" come from Saizen's own documentation on Somatropin.

[gixxerboy1]

Well, excuse the confusion. I stated that if you are diabetic you should not take GH. If you are (healthy) don't eat 2 hr before or after. Never stated
it would not make any one more insulin resistant.

No you said it was a non issue if you wait 2 hours. Now if hgh can make you permanently insulin resistant is still a debate. But it definitely does for more then 2 hours.

[kesam1]

Just started Generic browns 2 weeks ago and my fasting levels have gone from 8 2 weeks ago to a 10.2 this morning diet is good and started ALA and Chromium yesterday will keep you updated on levels. I was diagnosed pre diabetic last year and thought i had brought levels down but lazy diet obviously lifted the readings early on this year. I only realised when I started checking 2 weeks ago knowing what the HGH might do to them. Due for Docs re test in September would like to avoid the cheap meds that are prescribed in UK (bloody health surgeries budgets) so will be working hard to lower them. Just discovered the low GI approach and I am using this in my diet now.

[Ufa]

No you said it was a non issue if you wait 2 hours. Now if hgh can make you permanently insulin resistant is still a debate. But it definitely does for more then 2 hours.

I'm talking about avoiding sugars and starches. Protiens OK. Sometimes it's
best to talk baby talk. So you don't strain your brain. Some folks get glucose levels checked once in a while.

[johnsomebody]

There seems to be confusion here between Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes. The question is about Type 2, which is adult onset and seems to be precipitated/caused by insulin resistance. The studies I mentioned above were nearly all taken to determine if HGH replacement would be worthwhile in patients with chronic low HGH levels, in light of the fact that it may possibly cause Type 2, replacing one health problem with another.

I was hoping for some feedback from Red Baron on this.
You out there RedBaron?

[johnsomebody]

There seems to be confusion here between Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes. The question is about Type 2, which is adult onset and seems to be precipitated/caused by insulin resistance. The studies I mentioned above were nearly all taken to determine if HGH replacement would be worthwhile in patients with chronic low HGH levels, in light of the fact that it may possibly cause Type 2, replacing one health problem with another.

I was hoping for some feedback from Red Baron on this.
You out there RedBaron?

[Hellmaskbanned]

Is HGH & Diabetes , Like AAS and hairloss?

Like do you have to have a history of diabetes in your family in order for HGH to give it to you? Or even if no one ever in your family has diabetes ,can HGH give it to you?

[vermin]

Many of the references at the beginning of the thread were circular - restatements of the same prescription warnings from Sereno.

Did anyone look at the dosages they were discussing? 6mg = 18IU/day ED for 55kg human? That is they dosage they use, and then warn not to overdose due to potential glucose resistance. Based on that dosage, are you worried about overdosing?

Nothing as complex as this is going to give you a simplistic answer, such as HGH=Type II diabetes. There is evidence of some risk, though perhaps less than with aspirin (it and related drugs kill over 100,000 in the US every year) and there is evidence of benefits. You, as an adult, hopefully with the assistance of a physician, will have to weigh these risks and benefits and make up your mind.

Just from a human testing ethics standpoint, if it were that simple they would not have so many studies of the elderly and of athletes using HGH. If there was solid evidence that these folks were at extremely elevated risks for diabetes due to the HGH then they simply could not get the studies approved.

[rocky55]

You mentioned monitoring BG levels being something HGH users should do ... that is certainly what I would suggest as well. To be really safe up front, you could go to Target, Walmart, or just about any other place like that and get a home a1c test kit. That would give you a three month look at your BG levels. If that test indicated elevated blood glucose I would certainly proceed with caution.

Thanks RedBaron. Your posts have always been lot of help 2 us.
One question, I have been in US for 2 years now. So dont know the rules exactly here.

I get bloodwork done every 6 weeks year round, so I am always monitoring every element of the things I experiment with.

Can you go 2 a doctor in USA and ask him to help you take non prescribed HGH. I mean i would get the HGH myself, but can he monitor my health condition (continuously) to see if its safe for me to continue to use HGH.

So the bottom line Question is, can you discuss your intake of (non prescribed) HGH with your physician. Or is it as simple as monitoring your blood glucose levels using a1c kit. Thats all there is to it.

Just wanted to know of a good way to do it.

Thanks for your help.

[johnsomebody]

Just from a human testing ethics standpoint, if it were that simple they would not have so many studies of the elderly and of athletes using HGH. If there was solid evidence that these folks were at extremely elevated risks for diabetes due to the HGH then they simply could not get the studies approved.

I'm not sure that's true. If I recall correctly, nearly all the studies I cited were undertaken because the researchers involved were trying to determine if prescribing HGH for people with low levels (usually from hypopituitarism) was worth the risk from Type 2 diabetes. All the studies on people showed insulin resistance from replacement level doses, not the large doses typically used here.

I've never found studies of HGH on athletes (it's not like being an athlete is a condition that may be treated with HGH). Can anyone provide a link to one?

As for genetic predisposition, what I've read is if you have a near relative (parent or sibling) with Type 2, you have a 40% chance of contracting it yourself.

[vermin]

A good recent study of HGH in athletes is The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 88(11):5221–5226.

A study that had two people (as I recall) actually more or less develop diabetes during the study is The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 85 (11):4173-4181. However, even under those circumstances the strongest conclusion that could be reached by the investigators was "Therefore, rhGH treatment may precipitate diabetes in some patients already susceptible to the disorder."

As to the bit about the ethics of using human subjects, I can assure you that fi there were a simple HGH=diabetes equation then the majority of the studies on generally healthy adults would not be approved.

[johnsomebody]

The susceptibility mentioned must be the genetic prediposition to Type 2 that I'm concerned about.