China is getting ambitious

[Kärnfysikern]

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Ch..._Moon_999.html

it would be wonderfull if they could ignite another space race. The best thing about the cold war was how it pushed science forward in a amazing pace.

[RA]

In a lot of ways they are trying to mimic the U.S.

I think it would be a great benefit to have another country dumping considerable resources in space flight. The problem is that they couldnt even get there ICBM's off the ground if Clinton hadn't sold them the technology to do so. What are they going to do now? Raid NASA?

[Kärnfysikern]

In a lot of ways they are trying to mimic the U.S.

I think it would be a great benefit to have another country dumping considerable resources in space flight. The problem is that they couldnt even get there ICBM's off the ground if Clinton hadn't sold them the technology to do so. What are they going to do now? Raid NASA?

I wouldnt underestimate them. I mean they have put men into space and more engineers graduate each year in china than there is people in sweden They might be a bit behind but I dont think they will remain behind for so long. Europe and usa is slacking off a bit

[RA]

I wouldnt underestimate them. I mean they have put men into space and more engineers graduate each year in china than there is people in sweden They might be a bit behind but I dont think they will remain behind for so long. Europe and usa is slacking off a bit

You would think with all those engineers they would be able to figure the stuff out without having to steal U.S. technology.

[singern]

Politics aside, The Chinese people have as much to gain as anyone from space exploration, and surly as long as they have the resources, and ambition it is there right to do so.
Personally I would like to see more unified international cooperation, and involvement. The space station was a good start, but with a united effort we could do so much more, and the benefits to mankind are "astronomical"

[Phreak101]

You would think with all those engineers they would be able to figure the stuff out without having to steal U.S. technology.

Japan has been doing the same thing. China and Japan do not innovate at all, they just take technology in use and enhance it. It takes creativity to innovate, and math and science guys typically are more logical than creative (no offense of course Johan!)

[Red Ketchup]

You guys seem to forget history a bit... china has a long long history and have invented more things we take for granted than one can count... they just do it at a different pace than the west.

Have a look at http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/ you might be surprised...

I have no doubt that china will succeed in the space race and will probably overtake the west in time...

Red

[RA]

You guys seem to forget history a bit... china has a long long history and have invented more things we take for granted than one can count... they just do it at a different pace than the west.

Have a look at http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/ you might be surprised...

I have no doubt that china will succeed in the space race and will probably overtake the west in time...

Red

I haven't the slightest clue what you would base that statement on.

[Kärnfysikern]

I haven't the slightest clue what you would base that statement on.

well I agree with red. The west dominance in science and technology will end sooner or later(like within 100 years). Asia will easily surpass us with time. They are going to have more money and with the sheer number of scientists and engineers that graduate pure odds dictate that they will have more talented people aswell.

[RA]

well I agree with red. The west dominance in science and technology will end sooner or later(like within 100 years). Asia will easily surpass us with time. They are going to have more money and with the sheer number of scientists and engineers that graduate pure odds dictate that they will have more talented people aswell.

The U.S. has never had the sheer numbers, population wise, but we have always turned out the latest and best technology. If you go from a historical perspective it doesnt make sense. China and other countries have always out numbered us.

[Kärnfysikern]

You would think with all those engineers they would be able to figure the stuff out without having to steal U.S. technology.

well they probably figured that its better to buy and steal technology than to develop it on there own. It saved them alot of years. US and Russia has been developing there rocket technology since ww2, it all started with US and Russia stealing the technology from the germans.
So china is just doing the same just 60 years later. They cant just snap there fingers and close a 60 year technology gap. But by buying and stealing they can put themself right at our level.

Japan has been doing the same thing. China and Japan do not innovate at all, they just take technology in use and enhance it. It takes creativity to innovate, and math and science guys typically are more logical than creative (no offense of course Johan!)

No offense taken But I cant say I agree with it because who else than mathemathicians and scientist develop everything we se around us?
Someone with a PhD almost have to be creative since he must do independent research to get the PhD...Nobody can be creative in a high tech field without a strong scientific education behind them and that means they are a scientist or engineer...

Also improving things requires alot of creativity. I mean USA took all its rocket technology from germany and german scientists. But it tool ALOT of creativity to improve that technology to the extent required to put people on the moon. So even though the original technology was not american it still took american creativity to improve it enough.

[Phreak101]

You guys seem to forget history a bit... china has a long long history and have invented more things we take for granted than one can count... they just do it at a different pace than the west.

Have a look at http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/ you might be surprised...

I have no doubt that china will succeed in the space race and will probably overtake the west in time...

Red

These are still an inventions used to expand upon another invention. True ********** inventions include the light bulb, the phone, the record player, the internet, the calculator, etc. Innovations that changed the face of humanity as we know it. I wouldn't call a modified form of a semiconductor groundbreaking...still important, but not groundbreaking...

I have no doubt China will be ATTEMPTING to try to compete with the West, but economic laws and theroems have proved that communism will never overtake capitalism as a form of money making and/or competition/innovation. As long as the Chinese continue to enforce the public sector, they will never overtake the West.

Now to China's defense, they are seriously beefing up their private sector, but don't forget, the Chinese government censors any and all negative things about the government. You will never hear about the poverty, unrest, and overall turmoil that is engulfing the majority of the population of China these days...

I do have my worries though, they have made it very clear they they intend to be the next major superpower, and with the amount of manpower they would have in a standing army, who can blame them for trying.

[Phreak101]

No offense taken But I cant say I agree with it because who else than mathemathicians and scientist develop everything we se around us?
Someone with a PhD almost have to be creative since he must do independent research to get the PhD...Nobody can be creative in a high tech field without a strong scientific education behind them and that means they are a scientist or engineer...

Also improving things requires alot of creativity. I mean USA took all its rocket technology from germany and german scientists. But it tool ALOT of creativity to improve that technology to the extent required to put people on the moon. So even though the original technology was not american it still took american creativity to improve it enough.

I said typically! There are plenty of gifted individuals who have both logic and creativity, but human calculators and the like usually do not have the creative skills of say a songwriter, artist, poets, etc.

[Kärnfysikern]

I haven't the slightest clue what you would base that statement on.

Another thing is that the west is slacking of. ESA hasnt done anything remarkable technologicaly for a long time and NASA is still running a old crappy shuttle that should have been retired a long time ago. Its not NASA's or ESA's fault though. Its the damn politicians fault.

Neither the people or the politicians of the west care anymore. I mean kids today dont give a flying ****. They want to be rappers or get famous on a reality show. No one admire people like Von Braun or Einstein anymore. Less and less people become engineers and scientists in the west. Its a bit frightening realy.

[Kärnfysikern]

The U.S. has never had the sheer numbers, population wise, but we have always turned out the latest and best technology. If you go from a historical perspective it doesnt make sense. China and other countries have always out numbered us.

but they have never had the money. But now they are starting to get the money and ALOT of research companies in the west are moving there buisness to india and china aswell because scientists and engineers work for alot less over there and work harder because they are more hungry and they are just as skilled as western scientists and engineers.

[Kärnfysikern]

I said typically! There are plenty of gifted individuals who have both logic and creativity, but human calculators and the like usually do not have the creative skills of say a songwriter, artist, poets, etc.

it depends on what you view as beeing creative I guess.

Is it more creative to write a song or paint a painting than to prove a new theorem? I think its very hard to say what is creative or not.

[RA]

I guess we will see Johan. But like I said before, you cant sustain an empire on slave labor..the Romans found that out.

[Phreak101]

it depends on what you view as beeing creative I guess.

Is it more creative to write a song or paint a painting than to prove a new theorem? I think its very hard to say what is creative or not.

Creativity, from my understanding, is the means to think above and beyond conventional thinking in order to come to a new, undiscovered ends. To say a songwriter is more creative than a scientist is unfair, I retract that, but mathematical theroem and scientific discovery boils down to what was already there, they are just discovering it in a new light. I see poetry, song, writing, music, etc. as a completely ********** and brand new experience. Beethovens 5th is Beethoven's, it came from his mind. Figuring out mathematics is just a matter of having a mind to decipher what already exists around us.

Does that make sense?

[Kärnfysikern]

I guess we will see Johan. But like I said before, you cant sustain an empire on slave labor..the Romans found that out.

yupp but that is where india comes into the picture they are democratic, they are predicted to have a bigger economy than china and they will have a bigger population that china. Not to mention the president of india is a scientists and engineer. GOT TO LOVE a country that is run by a scientist

Honestly I dont se it as a threat that asia might overtake the west. I mean to me it doesnt matter if its a chinese, a jew, a swede or a american that invent something. Just aslong as it get invented and people can benifit from the invention.

In the same matter I dont care if its a european, chinese or american physicist that lays the foundation to the next step in physics or in chemistry.

It might mean it will become a bit more difficult for my countrymen and me to find a job. But so what? We just have to become better or lose in the competition.

[USfighterFC]

I dont wanna get in another space race. Ballistic missiles and space rockets are the basic same concept. China lags on ballistic missiles and I'd rather not see them get more and more. Screw space there is a million and one problems that need to be dealt with here. I dont need to know whats going on in a galaxy a billion light years away. Johan don't put ANY stock into the amount of engineers China puts out each year because car mechanics, truck mechanics etc also qualify under their guidelines. The number is far lower than you think.

[Phreak101]

It might mean it will become a bit more difficult for my countrymen and me to find a job. But so what? We just have to become better or lose in the competition.

Amen brother! That's the spirit that made my country great, and it's the spirit that will make the world even better!

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont wanna get in another space race. Ballistic missiles and space rockets are the basic same concept. China lags on ballistic missiles and I'd rather not see them get more and more. Screw space there is a million and one problems that need to be dealt with here. I dont need to know whats going on in a galaxy a billion light years away. Johan don't put ANY stock into the amount of engineers China puts out each year because car mechanics, truck mechanics etc also qualify under their guidelines. The number is far lower than you think.

I didnt know that...

But you got to admit that japaneese, chinese and indian students are out of this world. I have never seen more hard working and dedicated people in my life and I cant call myself lazy when it comes to studying. They are just mindbaffling. I seriously belive that the avarage asian student is alot more hard working than the avarage european or american student.

Does china realy lag on ballistic missile though? I mean they can send people safetly into space so I cant imagine they would have any troubble building a good ICBM nowdays?

Space technology can bring alot of things into everyday life aswell. The dialisys(sp?) machine was as far as I know a direct consequense of some space technology. The space race also brought with it advancements in material science that are implemented everywhere nowdays. I think the financial gains far surpass the money put into the space programs.

I dont think scientific discoveries needs to be justified in financial terms. If it did we would hardly have any scientist working on fundamental science. No one could imagine what quantum physics would lead to and here we are 80 years later with computers and nuclear power as a direct consequense of that. There is no telling what can spin off scientific discoveries. Observing things 13 billion light years away will improve our knoweledge on the basic structure of nature right here around us and who knows what inventions that will trigger in another 100 years?
Even if it doesnt knoweledge in itself is priceless imo. I wouldnt take the education I am taking if I didnt belive that. Because the stuff I will be researching will probably not spin off into any technology, atleast not in my lifetime.

[Kärnfysikern]

Creativity, from my understanding, is the means to think above and beyond conventional thinking in order to come to a new, undiscovered ends. To say a songwriter is more creative than a scientist is unfair, I retract that, but mathematical theroem and scientific discovery boils down to what was already there, they are just discovering it in a new light. I see poetry, song, writing, music, etc. as a completely ********** and brand new experience. Beethovens 5th is Beethoven's, it came from his mind. Figuring out mathematics is just a matter of having a mind to decipher what already exists around us.

Does that make sense?

Yeah it makes sense I just consider mathematical constructions as brand new aswell because they are not(in general) taken from nature or other things.

I think like this.

A great composer probably compose his music based on what he has heard himself. I dont think anyone can compose good music without ever hearing music, he puts togheter stuff he has heard and puts a twist on it. He takes the best of everything and make it his own through his creativity.

A great mathematician looks at what has been done in maths and thinks of new ways to develop it and take it further. Or he has a idea and work very hard to prove it by using older maths.

IMO creativity can not exist without anything to preceed it. A composer can not create great music without listening to music, a painter can not pain great paintings without observing other art and nature, a poet can not write great poetry without reading alot himself.
All creative people pull the best of the world togheter and put there own twist on it and in that way make it there own thing.

[Kärnfysikern]

Amen brother! That's the spirit that made my country great, and it's the spirit that will make the world even better!

yeah through competitive we all have to get better It benifits everyone. A real challange is the greatest thing that can happen(aslong as its peacefully offcourse).

[Phreak101]

A great composer probably compose his music based on what he has heard himself. I dont think anyone can compose good music without ever hearing music, he puts togheter stuff he has heard and puts a twist on it. He takes the best of everything and make it his own through his creativity.

Wasn't Beethoven deaf? Or did he become deaf over his life?

[Kärnfysikern]

I just read on wikipedia he started to go deaf around the age of 28.

I think a deaf(from birth) composer would be as impossible as a blind painter(or well yeah with all this "modern art" crap I could probably blindfold myself, stick a pencil in my ass and sit down on a piece of paper and call it great art).

[Phreak101]

I just read on wikipedia he started to go deaf around the age of 28.

I think a deaf(from birth) composer would be as impossible as a blind painter(or well yeah with all this "modern art" crap I could probably blindfold myself, stick a pencil in my ass and sit down on a piece of paper and call it great art).

Im inclined to agree. Music is just notes put into succession and timed properly, math is just numbers doing the same...I guess what it breaks down to is creativity IS just truely thinking outside the box.

Anyway, SCREW HIZBOLLAH!

[kdawg21]

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Ch..._Moon_999.html

it would be wonderfull if they could ignite another space race. The best thing about the cold war was how it pushed science forward in a amazing pace.

You know this kinda got me thinking, the space race was one of the major contributors to the downfall of communism, how you might ask, well to keep it short the US, especially under the Reagan Administration realized that the communist economy was propped up by Russia and they simply out spent them. Russia, who was trying to prove that they were every bit the superpower the US was, tried to match the US in spending and eventually went bankrupt. I don't think that such a thing would be applicable to China especially since the US and Chinese economy are hopelessly intertwined but it does raise an interesting question as to what would happed in all that Government money was dumped back into the economy in another space race.

[kdawg21]

You guys seem to forget history a bit... china has a long long history and have invented more things we take for granted than one can count... they just do it at a different pace than the west.

Have a look at http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/ you might be surprised...

I have no doubt that china will succeed in the space race and will probably overtake the west in time...

Red

Asian history is kinda weird like that, they have their own pace and it is usually 3 steps forward followed by 2 steps back.

[kdawg21]

These are still an inventions used to expand upon another invention. True ********** inventions include the light bulb, the phone, the record player, the internet, the calculator, etc.

Im still scratching my head to try and figure out how Al Gore pulled the internet out of his ass........ ha ha

[Kärnfysikern]

You know this kinda got me thinking, the space race was one of the major contributors to the downfall of communism, how you might ask, well to keep it short the US, especially under the Reagan Administration realized that the communist economy was propped up by Russia and they simply out spent them. Russia, who was trying to prove that they were every bit the superpower the US was, tried to match the US in spending and eventually went bankrupt. I don't think that such a thing would be applicable to China especially since the US and Chinese economy are hopelessly intertwined but it does raise an interesting question as to what would happed in all that Government money was dumped back into the economy in another space race.

but wasnt the money spent on the space race just a drop in the ocean compared to the military spendings? Even during its peak?

[kdawg21]

The two were kinda linked, all that research they did on propulsion also went into developing ICBM's and other military weapons. Some of the coolest stuff that we have today, Stealth recon planes and stuff was though up in a NASA office years ago.

[RA]

You also dont take into consideration the attitude of the west. If China plans a mission to Mars by the time they get there we'll have 3 starbucks and a taco bell waiting for them..

[Kärnfysikern]

You also dont take into consideration the attitude of the west. If China plans a mission to Mars by the time they get there we'll have 3 starbucks and a taco bell waiting for them..

thats exactly what Im hoping for. But Im not sure the avarage joe in america or europe gives a **** anymore. They probably think its a waste of money. Spirit of exploration seems gone.

[RA]

thats exactly what Im hoping for. But Im not sure the avarage joe in america or europe gives a **** anymore. They probably think its a waste of money. Spirit of exploration seems gone.

I think China challenging is just what we need to get it back. We went to the moon because of Russia.

[ect0m0rph]

China should advance the space program and everything else, with there population they change a lot of events. North Korea loves the fact that China exists. China is pushing and the US needs to take not a keep ahead of them.