The anti-IRS people won in court -- what now?

**Tock** · 07-26-2007, 09:29 PM

Anyone follow this topic? All I know about it is that the IRS tells me I gotta pay 'em, so I do. But it looks like this guy who says we don't have to (at least not on earned income) had his day in court, and the jury ruled for him, 12-0. Anyone know anything else?

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/...=2007707130321

Local attorney acquitted on federal income tax charges
Cryer stopped filing income taxes more than 10 years ago
July 13, 2007

By Loresha Wilson

A Shreveport attorney who has challenged the government for years on the legality of filing federal income taxes has been acquitted on charges he failed to file returns.

A federal jury unanimously found Tommy Cryer not guilty this week on two misdemeanor counts of failure to file.

And according to Cryer, the prosecution dismissed two felony charges of tax evasion prior to trial.

Attempts by The Times on Thursday to reach U.S. Attorney Donald Washington or Bill Flanagan, first assistant U.S. attorney, were not successful. Calls made to the two were not immediately returned.

"The court could not find a law that makes me liable or makes my revenues taxable," Cryer said. "The Supreme Court has ruled that the government cannot impose an income tax on anything but the profits and gains. When you work for someone you give your service and labor in exchange for money, so everything you make is not profit or gain. You put something into it."

Cryer was indicted last year on two counts of tax evasion. The indictment alleged he evaded payment of $73,000 in income tax to the Internal Revenue Service during 2000 and 2001.

Cryer created a trust listing himself as the trustee, and received payments of dividends, interest and stock income to that trust, according to the indictment. He also was accused of concealing his receipt of the sources of income from the IRS by failing to file a tax return on behalf of that trust.

"I determined that my personal earnings were not 100 percent profits, some were income," Cryer said. "I refuse to file, I refuse to pay unless they can show me I have a lawful reason to pay."

"What I earned was my own personal labor. I am giving something in exchange. I'm giving my property and I don't belong to anyone else."

Cryer says he stopped filing returns more than 10 years ago after he investigated claims that income tax was a sham. He contends the law doesn't actually tax personal earning.

**Fat Guy** · 07-26-2007, 11:08 PM

Interesting! I have heard this a couple of times and I wonder why we pay income taxes anyway. Do we pay it because we always have or do we pay it because it is illegal not to or do we pay them because there is a just and fair reason to do so? I am not sure about this one and I am curious to see the responses to this thread.

**Kale** · 07-26-2007, 11:11 PM

Income taxes are used to maintain infrastructure such as roads etc. If we dont pay taxes where does the money come from to do these things ?

**Mogamedogz** · 07-26-2007, 11:27 PM

The Income tax is a fraud... there is no law requiring you to pay.

check it out...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80303867390173

**kfrost06** · 07-27-2007, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Kale

Income taxes are used to maintain infrastructure such as roads etc. If we dont pay taxes where does the money come from to do these things ?

Sin tax, the federal and state tax on gas. Thats the money thats supposed to be used for roads, highways, etc. Property tax is for the schools. Sales tax for the state. Then there's state income tax, piggyback tax(county tax), inheritance tax, social security, SDI, luxury tax, etc. etc. etc.

**kfrost06** · 07-27-2007, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Tock

Anyone follow this topic? All I know about it is that the IRS tells me I gotta pay 'em, so I do. But it looks like this guy who says we don't have to (at least not on earned income) had his day in court, and the jury ruled for him, 12-0. Anyone know anything else?

Good for him but I would never risk that. The government always wins in the end, ask wesley snipes or willie nelson.

**dece870717** · 07-28-2007, 11:40 AM

I've often heard income tax goes to pay for the national debt.

**Superhuman** · 07-28-2007, 12:35 PM

Income tax goes to pay for the debt we owe the Federal Reserve... which is a private organization... which is a whole other story of bullshit

**Mogamedogz** · 07-28-2007, 12:56 PM

There is no law requiring us to pay income tax... I challenge ANYONE to provide proof otherwise. You cant, because it does not exist.

**Big** · 07-28-2007, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mogamedogz

There is no law requiring us to pay income tax... I challenge ANYONE to provide proof otherwise. You cant, because it does not exist.

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg.../JustNoLaw.htm

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg.../IncomeTax.htm

**soulstealer** · 07-28-2007, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by ImaGetBigger

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg.../JustNoLaw.htm

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg.../IncomeTax.htm

What you say here is IRS code and is based on this:

Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Which I might add was NOT Ratified by the 2/3 state voting law in 1913.. and the supreme court ruled in

Brushaber v. Union Pac. R.R., 240 U.S. 1, 18 -19 (1916).

And I quote

[T]he Sixteenth Amendment conferred no new power of taxation but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged.''

So yes if your wondering if applied to the IRS as of today the irs would be in violation of our constitutional rights which they have been treading on for 94 years...... or So....

**soulstealer** · 07-28-2007, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

Income tax goes to pay for the debt we owe the Federal Reserve... which is a private organization... which is a whole other story of bullshit

Guys just stop to think about what Superhuman said here and he is correct...

Money is the driving force of economy and government..... he who controls our money controls our government do you believe this? you should... because

A group of PRIVATE Bankers own the corporation know as the federal reserve and they LOAN every dollar to the US Government and it citizens at INTEREST Cause all of the government and it citizens to be INDEBTED to foreign bankers....

Insane right?

**Tock** · 07-28-2007, 06:27 PM

I don't know much about all this, but I suspect that if I did, I might become either angry or depressed . . .

But then again, if there is really something to all this, how come nothing has come of these challenges so far (except the one mentioned in the first post)?

**Big** · 07-28-2007, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mogamedogz

There is no law requiring us to pay income tax... I challenge ANYONE to provide proof otherwise. You cant, because it does not exist.

So do you pay income tax?

**Mogamedogz** · 07-28-2007, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by ImaGetBigger

So do you pay income tax?

No... I do not.

**Tock** · 07-28-2007, 08:28 PM

Huh . . . check out this video . . .

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80303867390173

It's long (almost 2 hours), and makes ya wonder about what's going on . . . Here's a summary of the film:

-----------------------------------------------

America: Freedom to Fascism is a compelling and troubling account of how the wealth of our nation was silently passed from its citizens to a handful of powerful bankers in 1913. That's the year the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th Amendment were introduced, giving a privately held corporation the means to control our finances while ensuring its interest payments through the strong arms of the newly-formed Internal Revenue Service. Ever since then, Russo suggests, Americans have been gradually conditioned to accept fewer freedoms and a lower standard of living... all the while considering debt and servitude as distinctly American values.

Russo's first and most cogent point is simple: Americans are not required to pay a federal income tax. That's a bold statement to make, as few people believe that such a fraud could be perpetrated for so long. My father, himself an accountant, insists that the income tax is a very real thing. Russo takes that same belief to IRS employees and simply asks them to cite where it says an unapportioned income tax is required of us all. Guess what? They can't. In a telling segment Sheldon Cohen, former commissioner of the IRS, goes so far as to reject Supreme Court rulings and the Constitution as benchmarks over what is legal with regards to taxation. Russo also interviews members of the tax honesty movement as well as disenfranchised IRS agents who agree that no law on the books conjures up a requirement to send the government part of one's hard-earned paycheck. Russo then showcases court cases where those accused of tax evasion have won precisely because the prosecution cannot provide evidence of a legal federal income tax law.

It's shocking to have it hammered into your head over and over that you've thrown your money away for nothing, but repetition is good; it helps knock loose the deeply entrenched belief that we owe a portion of our livelihood to our government.
===========================================

Now that I've posted the above, I've checked around some more, and found this website
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#income
that might (I dunno for sure) answer the issues raised by the video.

**Logan13** · 07-28-2007, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mogamedogz

No... I do not.

That's a surprise........badass.

**Fat Guy** · 07-29-2007, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Tock

Huh . . . check out this video . . .

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80303867390173

It's long (almost 2 hours), and makes ya wonder about what's going on . . . Here's a summary of the film:

-----------------------------------------------

America: Freedom to Fascism is a compelling and troubling account of how the wealth of our nation was silently passed from its citizens to a handful of powerful bankers in 1913. That's the year the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th Amendment were introduced, giving a privately held corporation the means to control our finances while ensuring its interest payments through the strong arms of the newly-formed Internal Revenue Service. Ever since then, Russo suggests, Americans have been gradually conditioned to accept fewer freedoms and a lower standard of living... all the while considering debt and servitude as distinctly American values.

Russo's first and most cogent point is simple: Americans are not required to pay a federal income tax. That's a bold statement to make, as few people believe that such a fraud could be perpetrated for so long. My father, himself an accountant, insists that the income tax is a very real thing. Russo takes that same belief to IRS employees and simply asks them to cite where it says an unapportioned income tax is required of us all. Guess what? They can't. In a telling segment Sheldon Cohen, former commissioner of the IRS, goes so far as to reject Supreme Court rulings and the Constitution as benchmarks over what is legal with regards to taxation. Russo also interviews members of the tax honesty movement as well as disenfranchised IRS agents who agree that no law on the books conjures up a requirement to send the government part of one's hard-earned paycheck. Russo then showcases court cases where those accused of tax evasion have won precisely because the prosecution cannot provide evidence of a legal federal income tax law.

It's shocking to have it hammered into your head over and over that you've thrown your money away for nothing, but repetition is good; it helps knock loose the deeply entrenched belief that we owe a portion of our livelihood to our government.
===========================================

Now that I've posted the above, I've checked around some more, and found this website
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#income
that might (I dunno for sure) answer the issues raised by the video.

Thanks Tock.

That was informational and I have already seen the video, which I thought was also interesting. I too wondered, if these taxes were unconstitutional, why nobody has challenged them until recently. That was a very informational site and it helped to answer some of my questions… somewhat. However, I am still curious as to why the attorney in the article was not charged with federal income tax charges and tax evasion when he has not paid taxes in the last ten years. If this was true, most people would stop paying their income taxes… hell I know I would.

I also suspect that the newspaper might have screwed up on representing this story. Newspapers are notorious for screwing up the facts. So maybe we are not getting the whole picture on this… I don’t know. I would like to think that income taxes are unconstitutional and I don’t have to pay them (or in reality maybe I wouldn’t considering all the years I have paid). Either way I think the adage is true about death and taxes and I think Soulstealer is right in that money is the driving force. (Now that’s depressing… Huh?)

**notus** · 07-29-2007, 09:47 AM

They threw my grandpa in prison when he was in his 60's for not paying his taxes. His attorney didn't pay taxes either and they recently got him.

**Tock** · 07-30-2007, 07:09 AM

I took a quick look at
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#income
and it seems that there are Supreme Court rulings that came after the 16th Amendment that the anti-tax people might not be taking into account, I'm not sure, though. I gotta take a little time and sift through all that stuff and see what's what . . .

**Giants11** · 07-30-2007, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

Income tax goes to pay for the debt we owe the Federal Reserve... which is a private organization... which is a whole other story of bullshit

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill.../flaherty.html

**kfrost06** · 07-30-2007, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Tock

I don't know much about all this, but I suspect that if I did, I might become either angry or depressed . . .

So what your saying is it won't change your mood one bit

**Tock** · 08-06-2007, 01:42 AM

I'm really surprised that the only paper that wrote about this guy's victory in court was the local Shreveport paper. Nevertheless, here's a Youtube video the guy (Tom Cryer) who won the court case posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgbYkElqxw0

---------------

Ron Paul (Republican congressman from Texas) has a Youtube video broaching this topic at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOthZ5tAiHc
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZl62...elated&search=

Mike Gravel (former Democrat US Senator from Alaska) covers the IRS issue at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ1XlIf7MAk

**Panzerfaust** · 08-08-2007, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Kale

Income taxes are used to maintain infrastructure such as roads etc. If we dont pay taxes where does the money come from to do these things ?

That is what is "supposed" to be used for. It is not, instead we are paying for all the goddamn illegal/immigrants, welfare abusing mother****ers in this country. Do you know how much debt the illegals have run up in our schools and hospitals. Do some research and your blood pressure will go through the ****ing roof.

I say we all follow suit with this guy. He has a point.

**Logan13** · 08-08-2007, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by muriloninja

That is what is "supposed" to be used for. It is not, instead we are paying for all the goddamn illegal/immigrants, welfare abusing mother****ers in this country. Do you know how much debt the illegals have run up in our schools and hospitals. Do some research and your blood pressure will go through the ****ing roof.

I say we all follow suit with this guy. He has a point.

Totally agree.

**Panzerfaust** · 08-08-2007, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

Totally agree.

Parkland Hospital in Dallas has millions upon millions of unpaid medical expenses due to illegal mother****ers. Same with the schools.

And then people wonder why the healthcare and schools suck. I swear to god this country is done for, the people that are to make the changes that we want (remember "for the people by the people") do not care and only pass laws that the high paying lobyists want passed etc.

There is power in numbers and history shows that us that change is brought upon by a relatively small group making a stand. Of course if you try that today you will be labeled a terrorist orgnization and probably be killed.

The gov't has done a good job to demoralise people into believing there is not any power in numbers which is a complete lie. Stop and think about it, there was some child killed by the police in NY awhile back, the community, not a couple people but the whole community went off about it and that got some asses in serious shit. That is just a small example.

How come we cannot seem to do that with our politicians? Makes you wonder huh?