Philidelphia to Boy Scouts: Renounce Ban on Gays, or No More Free Rent

[Logan13]

If the only students at this schools were transgender kids with mental problems then you would have a point. You don't so your point is moot.

Good day, sir.

transgendered people are mentally ill, PC or not to call them as such is a whole different story.

[scriptfactory]

[/B]Well now that you put it that way....ok....I agree with the above statement.

You're crazy, man.

[scriptfactory]

transgendered people are mentally ill, PC or not to call them as such is a whole different story.

That wasn't the whole point. I was merely trying to express my lack of comprehension for your earlier post. I was not aware that you were only calling the transgendered children psychologically imbalanced. So you would approve of the school if crazy tranny kids weren't allowed to attend?

[Logan13]

That wasn't the whole point. I was merely trying to express my lack of comprehension for your earlier post. I was not aware that you were only calling the transgendered children psychologically imbalanced. So you would approve of the school if crazy tranny kids weren't allowed to attend?

I do not believe that homosexuals are mentally ill. Perhaps a sweeping statement about "transgenders", but I do believe that they have mental issues. As for the school, if it is paid for with taxpayer dollars, no I would not be for it. In the marketplace of the real world, these people are going to have to learn to live and work with heteros(and vice-versa). Secluding them from society in their teens will only hurt their future.

[Tock]

I do not believe that homosexuals are mentally ill. Perhaps a sweeping statement about "transgenders", but I do believe that they have mental issues. As for the school, if it is paid for with taxpayer dollars, no I would not be for it. In the marketplace of the real world, these people are going to have to learn to live and work with heteros(and vice-versa). Secluding them from society in their teens will only hurt their future.

The last time we visited this issue, we discovered that in New York City, their Board of Education have several schools set aside for particular populations. There was some controversy a year or so ago over their attempt to form a school for the children of ultra-conservative Jews, because it was viewed by some as using tax $$$ to further religious education.
Regardless, it's common practice for the Education officials to offer education services to particular groups. I won't comment on the advisabilty of that, but I will offer a reprint of what the Wikipedia has to say about the Harvey Milk school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk_School

Harvey Milk High School is a high school designed to be a safe space for students regardless of sexual orientation. The school is located in the East Village of New York City, and named after Harvey Milk, the first openly gay supervisor of San Francisco, California, who was assassinated along with San Francisco Mayor George Moscone on November 27, 1978. The school was originally run by the Hetrick-Martin Institute (HMI), an organization that provides social support to at-risk youth, especially those who are LGBTQ.
After becoming a fully-accredited public school in 2002, the high school is now administered by the New York City Department of Education, separate from HMI. The school and the non-profit still share space in the same building.
The school was founded in 1985 as a small, two-room program with just over a dozen students by HMI in collaboration with the New York City Department of Education's Career Education Center. The Department of Education administers the school and is responsible for admissions. Harvey Milk was created as an alternative education program for youth who find it difficult or impossible to attend their home schools due to threats, violence, or harassment.
Students must themselves apply to transfer to the high school, like other transfer schools in New York City. Approximately 95% of the students are African American or Latino. The school has a 95% graduation rate, far above the state average, and 60% of students attend institutions of higher learning.

HMHS came to national attention in 2002, when the Board of Education authorized a $3.2 million capital expansion of the school as one of its last acts prior to becoming a mayoral agency. At this time, the school also became a four-year, fully-accredited high school.
The capital provided by Board of Education allowed for the renovation of the school building. Enrollment jumped from 50 to 100 students. In 2003, “[t]he new school’s principal, William Salzman, said the school will be academically challenging and will follow mandatory English and math programs. It also will specialize in computer technology, arts and culinary arts.”[1]
Nevertheless, the school has come under attack, with many alleging that it practices discrimination. In general, the opposition comes from social conservatives; for example, Fred Phelps protested outside the school when it opened as a public high school in 2003. State Conservative Party Chairman Michael Long also criticized the creation of the school as social engineering, asking, “Is there a different way to teach homosexuals? Is there gay math? This is wrong… There’s no reason these children should be treated separately.”[1] Others claim that the school is trying to indoctrinate students in sexual minority culture by teaching about the history of gay people and creating an almost exclusively homosexual environment. Many assert that the solution to harassment is a zero tolerance policy against it in all public schools, not isolating gay students.
Supporters contend that this school is a pragmatic solution, providing an alternative path to a diploma for students who are unable to succeed in a traditional high school due to intolerance. Nor are all arguments against the school divided along partisan lines. Independent mayor Michael Bloomberg supported the renovation of the school while Democratic State Senator Rubén Díaz opposed it.
In 2004, the HMHS underwent a 17,000 square foot (1,600 m²) expansion and an increase to eight classrooms and 110 students.

[Logan13]

The last time we visited this issue, we discovered that in New York City, their Board of Education have several schools set aside for particular populations. There was some controversy a year or so ago over their attempt to form a school for the children of ultra-conservative Jews, because it was viewed by some as using tax $$$ to further religious education. That was a Muslim high school...........
Regardless, it's common practice for the Education officials to offer education services to particular groups. I won't comment on the advisabilty of that, but I will offer a reprint of what the Wikipedia has to say about the Harvey Milk school:

That was a Muslim high school........... Regardless, equal treatment under the law applies to straight white males as well...........If you cannot function in society, what good are you to said society..?

[Tock]

That was a Muslim high school........... Regardless, equal treatment under the law applies to straight white males as well...........If you cannot function in society, what good are you to said society..?

There was a Jewish school, also.

Nevertheless, your point is well taken. There's something to say for a heterogeneous student body. But if the school is unable to provide a safe learning environment for some of the students, well, then there's a case to be made for making special accommodations for them.

Evidently the schools couldn't keep bullies from beating up some of the gay kids. If it was up to me, I'd put the bullies in a special school and let the gay students stay. But most likely, the bully school would be the largest one in New York City.

They chose to take a practical approach. And since I don't live in New York, I have no say in the matter, so I don't worry about it. Other folks worry about the situation enough for both them and me.

[thegodfather]

Ignoring my own biological views, because as someone who studies science, I believe that just about every deviation from the "norm" can be explained as some sort of genetic predisposition. I will say this, at all points in history, people who's personal views and/or lifestyles deviated from the accepted "norm" of those times, were always labeled in some way. Galileo Galilaei was called all kinds of things for his beliefs, I believe he was even put to death if memory serves. Socrates, the man who basically founded a lot of the principles we use in Philosophy, was executed for "polluting the minds of young people", he was put to death by poisin. He was not afraid of his death, because he knew in dying he attained TRUE freedom.

So, although I believe having different sexual orientations is definately explainable as far as genetics and biology is concerned; I am reluctant to follow the "normal" naive, belligerent, close minded, timorous mindset and attitude that all of these so called "different" people are a disease and cancer to our society, as some of the comments in this thread seem to suggest.

We make special allowances for mentally handicapped children, and provide them with schools specifically for them. So, I can definately see where the argument arises out of this. However, I still do not believe public funds should go to these things, they should be handled with private money, the burden should not lay on the taxpayer.

[Logan13]

There was a Jewish school, also.
OK, but why did you not use the Muslim school as an example?

Nevertheless, your point is well taken. There's something to say for a heterogeneous student body. But if the school is unable to provide a safe learning environment for some of the students, well, then there's a case to be made for making special accommodations for them.
Back when I was in high school, it would have been extremely difficult to be openly gay. But today, gays are not shunned like they once were. Hell, lesbianism was even embraced when I was in school...........

Evidently the schools couldn't keep bullies from beating up some of the gay kids. If it was up to me, I'd put the bullies in a special school and let the gay students stay. But most likely, the bully school would be the largest one in New York City.
They do have "bully schools", they call them reformatories.
They chose to take a practical approach. And since I don't live in New York, I have no say in the matter, so I don't worry about it. Other folks worry about the situation enough for both them and me.

I have never understood the whole "bully" situation. People who treat others in such a demeaning mannor need to be dealt with. All types of people get bullied in high school, always have, and I am afraid that it will not be stopping anytime soon.
But keep in mind, there are adult bullies as well, and if these kids have not been exposed to them to know how to deal with them before they become members of our work force, they will not know how to deal with them as adults either.

[AandF6969]

This thread is gay

[Logan13]

Ignoring my own biological views, because as someone who studies science, I believe that just about every deviation from the "norm" can be explained as some sort of genetic predisposition. I will say this, at all points in history, people who's personal views and/or lifestyles deviated from the accepted "norm" of those times, were always labeled in some way. Galileo Galilaei was called all kinds of things for his beliefs, I believe he was even put to death if memory serves. Socrates, the man who basically founded a lot of the principles we use in Philosophy, was executed for "polluting the minds of young people", he was put to death by poisin. He was not afraid of his death, because he knew in dying he attained TRUE freedom.

So, although I believe having different sexual orientations is definately explainable as far as genetics and biology is concerned; I am reluctant to follow the "normal" naive, belligerent, close minded, timorous mindset and attitude that all of these so called "different" people are a disease and cancer to our society, as some of the comments in this thread seem to suggest. We must be reading two different threads. It is ridiculous that you compare Galileo and Socrates to those who wish to have their penis cut off.
We make special allowances for mentally handicapped children, and provide them with schools specifically for them. So, I can definately see where the argument arises out of this. However, I still do not believe public funds should go to these things, they should be handled with private money, the burden should not lay on the taxpayer.

So is it your stance that LBGT individuals should be treated as "handicapped"? I just want to know what the hell happened to the level headed person who used to post under your name..........

[Tock]

I have never understood the whole "bully" situation. People who treat others in such a demeaning mannor need to be dealt with. All types of people get bullied in high school, always have, and I am afraid that it will not be stopping anytime soon.
But keep in mind, there are adult bullies as well, and if these kids have not been exposed to them to know how to deal with them before they become members of our work force, they will not know how to deal with them as adults either.

Ya, well, be that as it may, the NYC schools had the choice to either deal with the bullies, or else set up a school for the gay kids they bullied. What they did is what they did.

C'est la vie . . .

[Logan13]

Ya, well, be that as it may, the NYC schools had the choice to either deal with the bullies, or else set up a school for the gay kids they bullied. What they did is what they did.

C'est la vie . . .

hopefully they set up "gay only" workplaces in the future since these kids will not be ready to live within society.

[juicejunkie2]

hopefully they set up "gay only" workplaces in the future since these kids will not be ready to live within society.

I understand your point of view but with that said, I don't think the youth should be "hardened" to the criticism/hatred they'll eventually face (sad that it's a certainty that they'll have to eventually) .. They need that opportunity to develop so if/when the situation arises they're able to handle it better.

Also, there are many gay individuals who're very productive even in this society.

[Tock]

hopefully they set up "gay only" workplaces in the future since these kids will not be ready to live within society.

In a lot of major corporations, anyone who harasses gay people can get fired.

Ya, I've seen an idiot who wrote "queer" and "faggot" over someone's office stuff in magic marker, then get fired. Was very unprofessional. They may as well have written the "N" word in a black man's office, or some anti-Jewish epithets in a Jewish guy's office.

Schools have to teach idiot kids. But corporations are becoming less willing to put up with that BS.

[Carlos_E]

hopefully they set up "gay only" workplaces in the future since these kids will not be ready to live within society.

The school is not gay only. Anyone straight or gay is welcome to attend.

[thegodfather]

Schools do not consider bullying just bullying anymore. In many cases they are calling it harassment or assault. I think that kids need normal social interaction, I am not a fan of homeschooling, I've met quite a few homeschooled children and adults, and they just really lack a lot of the social skills that most people have.

Harassment and Assault are not accepted in everyday society, there are legal consequences, so why should we justify it in schools?

Other than that, I'm gonna bow out of this argument guys. I do think my comments comparing the people to Galileo and such were a little off base, so I'll admit to that one.

[Patches24]

I think that kids need normal social interaction, I am not a fan of homeschooling, I've met quite a few homeschooled children and adults, and they just really lack a lot of the social skills that most people have.

This is something I've always wondered about. Specifically, what kinds of social skills do they tend to lack, in your experience?

[Logan13]

I understand your point of view but with that said, I don't think the youth should be "hardened" to the criticism/hatred they'll eventually face (sad that it's a certainty that they'll have to eventually) .. They need that opportunity to develop so if/when the situation arises they're able to handle it better.

Also, there are many gay individuals who're very productive even in this society.

Definitely, but I guarantee you that they have not been caudled all of their life.

[Logan13]

The school is not gay only. Anyone straight or gay is welcome to attend.

Muslim schools say the same, but if your not Muslim, why would you attend. A public school is a public school........Who in their right mind would send their straight kid to a school with transgendered individuals?

[Carlos_E]

Muslim schools say the same, but if your not Muslim, why would you attend

Why would you attend? The school is in your area, easy to get to, safe, offers a good curriculum. The same reason why none Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools.

Who in their right mind would send their straight kid to a school with transgendered individuals?

A parent who isn't closed minded like you may send their kid for the reasons I listed above. Being gay or transgender is not contagious.

[helium3]

our schools teach a wide curriculum of studies that can cater for most individuals. we create cultural, social and possibly ecconomic boundries with schools like these, wether it be to specifically teach gay kids or jews or muslims or christians it can create a kind of separatism as it were. which i believe is very un-healthy for a global society which is becoming so closely connected. by all means keep your cultural identity and practice your beliefs but do it in a way that does not isolate you from other parts of society.

[Carlos_E]

our schools teach a wide curriculum of studies that can cater for most individuals.

Most being the key word. I went to a predominately White school in the midwest and the only thing we learned about Black history is slavery and George Washington Carver had a thing for peanut butter.

[alphaman]

the question still stands:

Are there any fathers of teenage daughters here who would feel comfortable with a hetero male Girl Scout leader takng their daughter and many other young girls into the woods on a camping trip?

Nobody?

[Logan13]

Why would you attend? The school is in your area, easy to get to, safe, offers a good curriculum. The same reason why none Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools.

A parent who isn't closed minded like you may send their kid for the reasons I listed above. Being gay or transgender is not contagious.

Not contagious, just ****ed up...........

[Carlos_E]

Not contagious, just ****ed up...........

No more than you are.

[Logan13]

Most being the key word. I went to a predominately White school in the midwest and the only thing we learned about Black history is slavery and George Washington Carver had a thing for peanut butter.

We are about the same age and I also went to school in the Midwest, all of my life in fact. We always had a rather extensive curriculum in regards to black history, which included visiting the many "underground railroad" sites in my hometown.

[Logan13]

No more than you are.

yehhhhhhhh
I have managed to flourish in society.

[Carlos_E]

We are about the same age and I also went to school in the Midwest, all of my life in fact. We always had a rather extensive curriculum in regards to black history, which included visiting the many "underground railroad" sites in my hometown.

What state? Were there minorities at your school? Our school was all White, just our family.

[Logan13]

What state? Were there minorities at your school? Our school was all White, just our family.

Iowa. I went to k-5 in a working class neighborhood that actually had quite a few hispanics in it, but only about 10% were black. I really enjoyed going to school K-5. I never remember people using the N word, refering to someone by their skin color (he's that black kid). In high school, all of that seemed to change. I never understood what caused that change, but we did have alot more blacks in high school than we did in the earlier grades.

[scriptfactory]

Nobody?

I actually wouldn't mind a male Girl Scout leader taking my daughter and a group of other girls into the woods on camping trips as long as I knew him. This, of course, is assuming I was well acquanted with him and he was not taking them into the woods alone, but was accompanied by other Girl Scout leaders that I knew.

That being said, I am probably in the minority because I wouldn't really like ANYONE taking my kids into the woods if I didn't know and trust them. It doesn't matter if they were male or female, straight or gay.

[Logan13]

I actually wouldn't mind a male Girl Scout leader taking my daughter and a group of other girls into the woods on camping trips as long as I knew him. This, of course, is assuming I was well acquanted with him and he was not taking them into the woods alone, but was accompanied by other Girl Scout leaders that I knew.

That being said, I am probably in the minority because I wouldn't really like ANYONE taking my kids into the woods if I didn't know and trust them. It doesn't matter if they were male or female, straight or gay.

Since my wife was out of town, I asked my daughter's den mother is I could be a chaperon for the camping trip this summer. She told me that it was frowned on to have men fill such roles. I could not blame them since I would be a little leary about another father filling that role as well.

[helium3]

Most being the key word. I went to a predominately White school in the midwest and the only thing we learned about Black history is slavery and George Washington Carver had a thing for peanut butter.

american history, wether it be black or white isnt very extensive anyway.unless you include native indian tribes etc.

[scriptfactory]

american history, wether it be black or white isnt very extensive anyway.unless you include native indian tribes etc.

We were taught American and European history in middle school. I just think it's funny because only 40-50% of my school was of European descent.

[Logan13]

We were taught American and European history in middle school. I just think it's funny because only 40-50% of my school was of European descent.

But we are all, nonetheless, Americans........
Black Culture Club seems to get alot more in depth than the regular curriculum. But keep in mind, we did not spend anytime on Irish or Sioux history. I did not feel slighted like many blacks seem to be in regards to a lack African history being taught in schools.........

[scriptfactory]

But we are all, nonetheless, Americans........
Black Culture Club seems to get alot more in depth than the regular curriculum. But keep in mind, we did not spend anytime on Irish or Sioux history. I did not feel slighted like many blacks seem to be in regards to a lack African history being taught in schools.........

I just think we should be taught American history and world history. There shouldn't even be history lessons based on race...

[Logan13]

I just think we should be taught American history and world history. There shouldn't even be history lessons based on race...

agreed.

[FLBMWMech]

Everyone acts like Philly is doing some big favor by giving the scouts somewhere to meet and that they get nothing in return.
Scouting gives hundreds of inner city kids a place to go and socialize in a positive atmosphere. It provides them with alot of practical knowledge of a huge range of subjects ranging from first aid, to carpentry, to auto repair, to sporting, to survival and field craft. These are definitely things they wouldnt learn in the urban jungle. Scout Masters provide these kids with role models-- this is an excellent reason why they should exclude the gay scout masters.
A Heterosexual Christian Male (preferably a family man) makes an excellent rolemodel for an adolescent boy.
I'm sure I'm going to get flamed over this, but to be quit honest : I accept your right to live an alternative lifestyle, but don't tell my children that its an acceptible(or even preferential) alternative to a proper hetero lifestyle.
Also-- I'm extremely leery of ANYONE who feels the need to put their sexuality on the table when dealing with a position with children.
I don't roam around shouting to everyone I know "Hey-- I'm a Heterosexual!"
But we seemingly see countless gay and lesbian people who feel the need to define themselves by their sexual preference.

[Tock]

Everyone acts like Philly is doing some big favor by giving the scouts somewhere to meet and that they get nothing in return.

The Scouts exclude gay kids from their programs.
The Scouts exclude atheist kids from their programs.
So, why should the City of Philiadelphia subsidize this sort of thing?

Scouting gives hundreds of inner city kids a place to go and socialize in a positive atmosphere. It provides them with alot of practical knowledge of a huge range of subjects ranging from first aid, to carpentry, to auto repair, to sporting, to survival and field craft. These are definitely things they wouldnt learn in the urban jungle.

True.
But not all kids.
Only heterosexual kids, and only theistic kids.
They tell the gay kids and the kids who don't beleive in God that they can't do any of this. What's up with that?

I'm sure there are other organizations who could provide similar services to the public without this sort of pig-headed exclusivity. Like the Girl Scouts, for instance, who don't have similar membership restrictions. There's no reason why the city couldn't just turn the place over to the Philiadelphia Girl Scouts.

Scout Masters provide these kids with role models-- this is an excellent reason why they should exclude the gay scout masters.

Are you saying that ALL heterosexual Scout Masters are better role models than ALL gay Scout Masters?
Why? Just because they're gay?
That's dumb . . .

A Heterosexual Christian Male (preferably a family man) makes an excellent rolemodel for an adolescent boy.

I know many who do. I know some who don't.
I also know many gay men who do, and then again, some who don't.
Rev. Jimmy Swaggart is a heterosexual Christian male. And he was caught with prostitutes. Is that a good role model?
One of the US Senators from Louisiana is a heterosexual Christian male. And he has been caught patronizing call girls. Is that a good role model?
The KKK is chuck full of heterosexual Christian males. We all know what they do. Would you say they are good role models?

I accept your right to live an alternative lifestyle, but don't tell my children that its an acceptible(or even preferential) alternative to a proper hetero lifestyle.

Living a gay lifestyle if you're gay is far better than trying to live a heterosexual lifestyle when you're gay. Ever hear of Idaho Senator Larry Craig? Or Rev. Ted Haggart, the TV preacher who got caught patronizing a gay prostitute while preaching against gays? Those guys are repressed, which contributes to all sorts of mental illnesses.

If, in the unlikely event that your kids are gay, if you tell them that they have to live a heterosexual lifestyle, chances are they'll block you out of their lives, and do what they have to do to keep their sanity. If you're willing to risk that, go right ahead.

Also-- I'm extremely leery of ANYONE who feels the need to put their sexuality on the table when dealing with a position with children.

That would include the Boy Scouts, who specifically exclude anyone with a gay sexual orientation from membership. (Also, the US military, who do the same thing, BTW)
But, I'll guess that you're very comfortable with the Boy Scouts doing this, in which case you might want to revise this statement.

I don't roam around sting to everyone I know "Hey-- I'm a Heterosexual!"
But we seemingly see countless gay and lesbian people who feel the need to define themselves by their sexual preference.

Would you say that the sexual orientation of the current Boy Scout leaders can be safely presumed to be heterosexual? I'm sure that's because the Boy Scout organization takes great pains to ensure that the public knows that its people are 100% heterosexual.

So, yes, these people do indeed "feel the need to define themselves by their sexual preference." What's up with that?
And again, the US military does the same thing. What's up with that? They have a severe need for Arabic language translators, yet they've kicked out 66 of them just because they are gay.

So, while you congratulate yourself for not roaming the streets publicizing your sexual orientation, keep in mind that there are plenty of other heterosexuals who do. And each and every one of them is an idiot.

[Z12]

All public schools are open to anyone, no need to create some alternative universe school just for them. If these kids are that screwed up, get them the psychological help that they need.

I'm not talking about that particular LGBT school, but I knew several kids who went to an "alternative" school where I grew up. If those kids had been forced into public schools, they would have dropped out. I think some of these alternative schools are life-savers for many kids we should be supportive of their existence. As to whether of not taxpayers should fund these schools, I dunno, I'll have to think about it....