Olbermann SLAMS Bush&FISA immunity-America is officially a facist state

**thegodfather** · 02-01-2008, 06:51 PM

This is definately lounge material...not quite news...something EVERY American should watch in its entirety, its not too long...only a few minutes...please take the time to watch and then comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F1cP8oDuyo

**alphaman** · 02-01-2008, 07:30 PM

comment, hmmm... frightened, yet not surprised. i hate to sound gloomy, but with everything going on right now, and how ridiculously stupid the mass majority of america is appearing to me... i don't think they'll get it until they realize they've been duped because they asked a question and their chip got turned off.

also... i don't know why olbermann thinks 'big government obama' will fix it. but maybe he got the memo that he would be fired if he talked about Ron Paul.

i never thought i would be saying crap like this. and honestly... I wouldn't say it in this manner on my own board. maybe ar is a good outlet for me... lol

**Logan13** · 02-02-2008, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

This is definately lounge material...not quite news...something EVERY American should watch in its entirety, its not too long...only a few minutes...please take the time to watch and then comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F1cP8oDuyo

olbermann is a wack job. He does not even know what facist means........

**thegodfather** · 02-02-2008, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by Logan13

olbermann is a wack job. He does not even know what facist means........

Ehh I'm not so concerned with Olbermann, as I am the message he was sending. He may have little credability with you, but there is really no concievable counter argument to what he was saying, unless you come out and say "**** the Constitution, **** the American people, and **** their civil liberties and any rights they may have."

I think when we pay our carriers we expect them to have a certain allegiance to us. To think that they participated in the spying of American citizens, and completely ignored DUE PROCESS and the rule of law, is quite disturbing to me, and it IS a move in the direction of Facism. When corporations start colluding with government agencies to evade the rule of law and errode the civil liberties of American citizens.

So instead of slamming Olbermann, would you mind giving me a response to what was said in the video, and what your position is on the FISA&immunity issue.

**alphaman** · 02-02-2008, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

So instead of slamming Olbermann, would you mind giving me a response to what was said in the video, and what your position is on the FISA&immunity issue.

Yeah Logan. Geez man.

**Logan13** · 02-02-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Ehh I'm not so concerned with Olbermann, as I am the message he was sending. He may have little credability with you, but there is really no concievable counter argument to what he was saying, unless you come out and say "**** the Constitution, **** the American people, and **** their civil liberties and any rights they may have."

I think when we pay our carriers we expect them to have a certain allegiance to us. To think that they participated in the spying of American citizens, and completely ignored DUE PROCESS and the rule of law, is quite disturbing to me, and it IS a move in the direction of Facism. When corporations start colluding with government agencies to evade the rule of law and errode the civil liberties of American citizens.

So instead of slamming Olbermann, would you mind giving me a response to what was said in the video, and what your position is on the FISA&immunity issue.

Fascism has nothing to do with corporations. In Nazi Germany, the corporations had NO power since the gov't seized control of most of them. About the response, I honestly cannot bring myself to listen to a spook like Olbermann, regardless. All he does is whine about this and that, never offering any solutions. If everything were great, he would not have a job. You might as well provide a link to moveon.org in IMO............

**alphaman** · 02-03-2008, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Logan13

Fascism has nothing to do with corporations. In Nazi Germany, the corporations had NO power since the gov't seized control of most of them. About the response, I honestly cannot bring myself to listen to a spook like Olbermann, regardless. All he does is whine about this and that, never offering any solutions. If everything were great, he would not have a job. You might as well provide a link to moveon.org in IMO............

Seems like these guys don't agree with you Logan...

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."

- FDR

"Fascism in power is the open, terroristic dictatorship of the most reactionary, the most chauvinistic, the most imperialistic elements of finance capitalism."

karl marx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

**SMCengineer** · 02-03-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

Fascism has nothing to do with corporations. In Nazi Germany, the corporations had NO power since the gov't seized control of most of them. About the response, I honestly cannot bring myself to listen to a spook like Olbermann, regardless. All he does is whine about this and that, never offering any solutions. If everything were great, he would not have a job. You might as well provide a link to moveon.org in IMO............

There is more than one way to define fascism. Just because the left is usually considered fascist doesn't mean that it does't also apply to the right in our current state.

**Pooks** · 02-03-2008, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Ehh I'm not so concerned with Olbermann, as I am the message he was sending. He may have little credability with you, but there is really no concievable counter argument to what he was saying, unless you come out and say "**** the Constitution, **** the American people, and **** their civil liberties and any rights they may have."

I think when we pay our carriers we expect them to have a certain allegiance to us. To think that they participated in the spying of American citizens, and completely ignored DUE PROCESS and the rule of law, is quite disturbing to me, and it IS a move in the direction of Facism. When corporations start colluding with government agencies to evade the rule of law and errode the civil liberties of American citizens.

So instead of slamming Olbermann, would you mind giving me a response to what was said in the video, and what your position is on the FISA&immunity issue.

I agree,, 2 of the same pretty much.

We've got 2 choices in this country.. between Progressive Socialism or Conservative Socialism..
BOTH ARE A VIEW POINT, BASED ON THE WORLD BEING LIKE A BEE-HIVE, or AN ANT FARM.. meaning BIG GOVERNMENT!!!! We already got that on the state level.. we do not need it on the federal level also... The problem began, when the Federal government decided it wasn't going to Govern States, but instead Govern individuals.

But what we want is Individualism and Freedom!!!! LIBERTARIAN PARTY! at least on the federal level.. Not an ANT FARM, but a UNIVERSE, with CHECKS and BALANCES!....
Go Ron Paul!!

BTW: the definition of "fascism" was changed after world war 2.. because it was too much a like to "Progressivism" they were pushing in America.

Today Government has no checks and balances.. it all works together like a MACHINE!
NAZISM called it what u want...

To return to CHECK AND BALANCES.. we need to roll back our gov't to pre-1913 and Pre-Woodraw Wilson, and Pre-Proggresivism.

**Logan13** · 02-03-2008, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by alphaman

Seems like these guys don't agree with you Logan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

read the book "Liberal Fascism"

**alphaman** · 02-04-2008, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Logan13

read the book "Liberal Fascism"

my point is that the definitions of fascism are many... and that what's being discussed does fit in to some.

And Logan, are you okay with the companies being exempt or not? Are you okay with being spied on?

Even if it is for terrorists and people that are a true threat to our national security... are you comfortable that all this has paved the way to allow them to turn it on anyone and everyone? Even if it's not happening now, are you okay with it becoming possible? Do you just trust the guys that run the show not to do anything they shouldn't do?

**Pooks** · 02-04-2008, 12:16 PM

Democrats are fascists.. It is their belief in Science that makes them fascist.

Woodrow Wilson democrats believed Government is a living entity.
They wanted government to work together,, like a living entity..
they said that is the new way.. the DARWIN way..

they called the OLD way the Newton way.. checks and balances, the theory that all power in universe need to be equal.. that was the old way according to the democrats..

the new way was everything works together, and they supported their beliefs with Science..

thats why when eugenics was hot earlier this century, Woodraw Wilson, started Segragation..

He had scientific proof, that African Americans were lesser humans than White People.. so he passed laws to Segragate..

this is very similiar to Hitler with Hitler's theories..

Read up on Segragation, Woodrow Wilson started it all.
The Blacks never had it worse since slavery.. from 1910s to 1950's when the Progressive Movement was hot.. it was a living nightmare for them.. they were secondary citizens..

also Universal Health care, Universal Education, Social Security alll that, Germany had all that also..
and FDR started all that too, in the United States.

Its one and the same..

**Pooks** · 02-04-2008, 12:25 PM

In order to discourage black voting, Southern Democrats resorted to violence. The white supremacist Ku Klux Klan terrorized black political leaders to counter the Republican party's power base.

**Logan13** · 02-04-2008, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by alphaman

my point is that the definitions of fascism are many... and that what's being discussed does fit in to some.

And Logan, are you okay with the companies being exempt or not? Are you okay with being spied on?

Even if it is for terrorists and people that are a true threat to our national security... are you comfortable that all this has paved the way to allow them to turn it on anyone and everyone? Even if it's not happening now, are you okay with it becoming possible? Do you just trust the guys that run the show not to do anything they shouldn't do?

First of all, great avatar.
The gov't can not be sued, by extension companies that help the gov't should not be prone to lawsuit either. This is not an illegal action, it was passed through Congress and has withstanded judicial review. Not liking a law does not make it any less relevant.

**Logan13** · 02-04-2008, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Pooks

Democrats are fascists.. It is their belief in Science that makes them fascist.

Woodrow Wilson democrats believed Government is a living entity.
They wanted government to work together,, like a living entity..
they said that is the new way.. the DARWIN way..

they called the OLD way the Newton way.. checks and balances, the theory that all power in universe need to be equal.. that was the old way according to the democrats..

the new way was everything works together, and they supported their beliefs with Science..

thats why when eugenics was hot earlier this century, Woodraw Wilson, started Segragation..

He had scientific proof, that African Americans were lesser humans than White People.. so he passed laws to Segragate..

this is very similiar to Hitler with Hitler's theories..

Read up on Segragation, Woodrow Wilson started it all.
The Blacks never had it worse since slavery.. from 1910s to 1950's when the Progressive Movement was hot.. it was a living nightmare for them.. they were secondary citizens..

also Universal Health care, Universal Education, Social Security alll that, Germany had all that also..
and FDR started all that too, in the United States.

Its one and the same..

very informed post pooks.

**thegodfather** · 02-04-2008, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

First of all, great avatar.
The gov't can not be sued, by extension companies that help the gov't should not be prone to lawsuit either. This is not an illegal action, it was passed through Congress and has withstanded judicial review. Not liking a law does not make it any less relevant.

Amendment 4 - Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It is in fact an illegal action for the government to obtain such information from phone carriers without following due process. It completely usurps the rule of law, and it is written in black and white in the Constitution of the United States, ya know that little piece of paper that most here seem to ignore. I need not dig any further into any state specific laws, because the Constitutional amendments supercede ALL laws, and no law is legitimate if it does not adhere to the rule of law put forth in the Constitution. Collecting mass amounts of information on EVERYONE is illegal. Please read again "and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This is not an opinion, and it is not an opinion based off of emotion. It is a FACT, that I have just put forth in this message, it is an undeniable fact that SEIZING information is illegal without a warrant obtained in a legitimate United States court. What an abhorrent disregard to the Constitution and the rule of law, it is truely sickening.

**Logan13** · 02-04-2008, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Amendment 4 - Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It is in fact an illegal action for the government to obtain such information from phone carriers without following due process. It completely usurps the rule of law, and it is written in black and white in the Constitution of the United States, ya know that little piece of paper that most here seem to ignore. I need not dig any further into any state specific laws, because the Constitutional amendments supercede ALL laws, and no law is legitimate if it does not adhere to the rule of law put forth in the Constitution. Collecting mass amounts of information on EVERYONE is illegal. Please read again "and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This is not an opinion, and it is not an opinion based off of emotion. It is a FACT, that I have just put forth in this message, it is an undeniable fact that SEIZING information is illegal without a warrant obtained in a legitimate United States court. What an abhorrent disregard to the Constitution and the rule of law, it is truely sickening.

If you are surfing online and type in "how to blow up buildings", that is probable cause. They are not watching everyone, but I want them watching those who are looking for such knowledge.

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-04-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pooks

Democrats are fascists.. It is their belief in Science that makes them fascist.

What on earth do you mean by that?

**alphaman** · 02-04-2008, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

If you are surfing online and type in "how to blow up buildings", that is probable cause. They are not watching everyone, but I want them watching those who are looking for such knowledge.

That is my point. They may not be watching everybody right now... but why would we allow it to become possible?

I want to give longer posts with more ideas, but you'll just pick one to refute, and flush the rest down the toilet... see... I know how you are! lol

**alphaman** · 02-04-2008, 07:01 PM

Logan...

are you okay with the white house declaring a state of emergency and bringing all powers to the executive branch?

**Pooks** · 02-05-2008, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern

What on earth do you mean by that?

LOL ok I got to rephrase that..

The Democrats apply science to governing.. and the decide on policies depending on what the great science of the day is.

they're progressive.. Today it is all about Stem cell research, DNA sequencing, Solar Power etc etc..

They want to implant chips into people, and if the DNA states you are a sub-par human, they'll prolly lock u up in a mental institution for rehabbing. (them testing new medicine on you basically)

-------------
Republican are up to date on Science also, but they tend to be more Conservative with it.. they take their time, and in the long run usually probably make smarter decisions, cause they don't get swept up into things like "eugenics" etc..

Republicans like NASA cause of Defense and stuff like that, and like to build hi-tech tanks and etc.

They do not apply Science to Government, which in my opinion is smart cause one has nothing to do with the other.

**Logan13** · 02-05-2008, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by alphaman

That is my point. They may not be watching everybody right now... but why would we allow it to become possible?
You need to read the bill that allows such tapping. It is limited in its scope to "matters of US security".
I want to give longer posts with more ideas, but you'll just pick one to refute, and flush the rest down the toilet... see... I know how you are! lol

You are describing godfather's MO, not mine bro. I am the one providing the long, enclusive posts that you and others are trying to pick apart. Not the other way around. Problem is, I back mine up with facts, so it forces people to change the issue since they cannot refute the evidence.....

**Logan13** · 02-05-2008, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by alphaman

Logan...

are you okay with the white house declaring a state of emergency and bringing all powers to the executive branch?

martial law?

**Ncogneato** · 02-05-2008, 11:41 PM

I'm sorry Logan13 and Pooks, but I'm thuroughly convinced that you guys live on another planet. You guys wouldn't happen to work for FOX News would you? Just remember; Blind faith in incompetant leaders is NOT PATRIOTISM!!!

**Pooks** · 02-06-2008, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ncogneato

I'm sorry Logan13 and Pooks, but I'm thuroughly convinced that you guys live on another planet. You guys wouldn't happen to work for FOX News would you? Just remember; Blind faith in incompetant leaders is NOT PATRIOTISM!!!

eh..

it is just 2 different philosophies..

1 = Freedom = No tariffs, fair competition, low or no taxes (The choice to spend the money you earn any which way you want), not many regulations, free markets, small government, Individualism.. The Classic Republican way.

2.= Socialism/Fascism, Tariffs making the country isolated and poor, Government intervention in competition.. some people are better of collecting umemployment, than finding a job for example.. HIGH TAXES = (half the money u earn GOVT spends for you.. usually gives it to other people!!!! WTF!!).. to support a big ass GOVT.. the FEDERALIST WAY..aka democrats.

**thegodfather** · 02-06-2008, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by Logan13

You are describing godfather's MO, not mine bro. I am the one providing the long, enclusive posts that you and others are trying to pick apart. Not the other way around. Problem is, I back mine up with facts, so it forces people to change the issue since they cannot refute the evidence.....

Logan, I honestly wish that I could give more in depth responses, but since my time is extremely limited because of the start of the semester I really dont have the time to give lengthy responses and spend a great deal of time researching these things. I make most of my posts on the political principles and philosophies that I believe I adhere to. I am a strict Constitutionalist, and I like to challenge the status quo or what is accepted. The government collects income tax, but I do not agree with the law or think its legitimate. The government lets the Federal Reserve cartel print money not backed by gold, directly in conflict with the Constitution, and I do not think thats right, but they do it anyway. I often post the way things ought to be, or the way I believe the founders thought it ought to be, or the way I interpret it Constituitionally.

For FISA&Immunity, Warrantless wire tappings...I need look no further than the 4th Amendment, it supercedes all subsequent law. If the actions do not adhere to the Bill of Rights, it is a false power which does not actually exist, and those rules, laws, policies, need to be repealed.

I admit I respond with a lot of idealism, and your responses are a more realist/functionalist perspective. Your replys include how things ARE at the time, and what IS being done at the time. Just because these things are going on, does not necessarily mean they are right, or that we should accept them. I respect a lot of your posts, as most of them are informative and I do end up learning something in our conversations. However, in response to certain issues rather then responding with cold hard facts about an issue, I'm much more interested in your OPINION of the issues and whether or not you agree with the status quo of the time. So, given that thats the response Im looking from for you, I'm interested in hearing your replys based on your personal feelings and interpretations of the law regarding a few issues.

1. Do you support FISA&Immunity bill? Why/why not?

2. Do you support warrantless wire tapping with no oversight, and massive data mining by the US government which ignores checks&balances and usurps the rule of law (Amendment 4)? Why/why not?

3. Do you support the suspension of Habeas Corpus for inmates in Guantanamo Bay (this is being applied to US citizens as well)? Why/why not?

4. Do you support government sanctioned torture, which is in violation of Geneva Convention laws (which are accepted by the US Congress, as are the UN Resolutions which you support)? Why/Why not.

5. Do you support the power grabbing of the Executive branch that has been done by the Bush administration? Why/Why not.

6. Do you support S.1959 "Homegrown Radicalization and Terrorism" bill, which its wording essentially completely undermines the 1st Amendment?

These are questions I am very interested to hear your OPINION on. Because you can cite facts all day long about how these things are being done. But I am more interested in hearing how you feel about these laws, basically what your take on them is. I would like to hear the perspective of people who actually support our Civil Liberties being destroyed, if that is in fact how you feel.

**alphaman** · 02-06-2008, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

martial law?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...070509-12.html

**alphaman** · 02-06-2008, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

You need to read the bill that allows such tapping. It is limited in its scope to "matters of US security".

It's just not that simple. If it were, then legal scholars wouldn't be up in arms over it's being unconstitutional and judges wouldn't be ruling in favor of such.

**alphaman** · 02-06-2008, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

your responses are a more realist/functionalist perspective. Your replys include how things ARE at the time, and what IS being done at the time. Just because these things are going on, does not necessarily mean they are right, or that we should accept them. I respect a lot of your posts, as most of them are informative and I do end up learning something in our conversations.[

I think the above is an excellent observation.

However, in response to certain issues rather then responding with cold hard facts about an issue, I'm much more interested in your OPINION of the issues and whether or not you agree with the status quo of the time. So, given that thats the response Im looking from for you, I'm interested in hearing your replys based on your personal feelings and interpretations of the law regarding a few issues.

1. Do you support FISA&Immunity bill? Why/why not?

2. Do you support warrantless wire tapping with no oversight, and massive data mining by the US government which ignores checks&balances and usurps the rule of law (Amendment 4)? Why/why not?

3. Do you support the suspension of Habeas Corpus for inmates in Guantanamo Bay (this is being applied to US citizens as well)? Why/why not?

4. Do you support government sanctioned torture, which is in violation of Geneva Convention laws (which are accepted by the US Congress, as are the UN Resolutions which you support)? Why/Why not.

5. Do you support the power grabbing of the Executive branch that has been done by the Bush administration? Why/Why not.

6. Do you support S.1959 "Homegrown Radicalization and Terrorism" bill, which its wording essentially completely undermines the 1st Amendment?

These are questions I am very interested to hear your OPINION on. Because you can cite facts all day long about how these things are being done. But I am more interested in hearing how you feel about these laws, basically what your take on them is. I would like to hear the perspective of people who actually support our Civil Liberties being destroyed, if that is in fact how you feel.

NICE.

I second this!

**Logan13** · 02-06-2008, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Logan, I honestly wish that I could give more in depth responses, but since my time is extremely limited because of the start of the semester I really dont have the time to give lengthy responses and spend a great deal of time researching these things. I make most of my posts on the political principles and philosophies that I believe I adhere to. I am a strict Constitutionalist, and I like to challenge the status quo or what is accepted. The government collects income tax, but I do not agree with the law or think its legitimate. The government lets the Federal Reserve cartel print money not backed by gold, directly in conflict with the Constitution, and I do not think thats right, but they do it anyway. I often post the way things ought to be, or the way I believe the founders thought it ought to be, or the way I interpret it Constituitionally.

For FISA&Immunity, Warrantless wire tappings...I need look no further than the 4th Amendment, it supercedes all subsequent law. If the actions do not adhere to the Bill of Rights, it is a false power which does not actually exist, and those rules, laws, policies, need to be repealed.

I admit I respond with a lot of idealism, and your responses are a more realist/functionalist perspective. Your replys include how things ARE at the time, and what IS being done at the time. Just because these things are going on, does not necessarily mean they are right, or that we should accept them. I respect a lot of your posts, as most of them are informative and I do end up learning something in our conversations. However, in response to certain issues rather then responding with cold hard facts about an issue, I'm much more interested in your OPINION of the issues and whether or not you agree with the status quo of the time. So, given that thats the response Im looking from for you, I'm interested in hearing your replys based on your personal feelings and interpretations of the law regarding a few issues.

1. Do you support FISA&Immunity bill? Why/why not?

2. Do you support warrantless wire tapping with no oversight, and massive data mining by the US government which ignores checks&balances and usurps the rule of law (Amendment 4)? Why/why not?

3. Do you support the suspension of Habeas Corpus for inmates in Guantanamo Bay (this is being applied to US citizens as well)? Why/why not?

4. Do you support government sanctioned torture, which is in violation of Geneva Convention laws (which are accepted by the US Congress, as are the UN Resolutions which you support)? Why/Why not.

5. Do you support the power grabbing of the Executive branch that has been done by the Bush administration? Why/Why not.

6. Do you support S.1959 "Homegrown Radicalization and Terrorism" bill, which its wording essentially completely undermines the 1st Amendment?

These are questions I am very interested to hear your OPINION on. Because you can cite facts all day long about how these things are being done. But I am more interested in hearing how you feel about these laws, basically what your take on them is. I would like to hear the perspective of people who actually support our Civil Liberties being destroyed, if that is in fact how you feel.

I am responding while out of town tonight, so I do not have much time. Damn couldn't you have made it a smaller post bro? For right now, understand that I want as little gov't intrusion into my life as possible. I am responsible for my own happiness and my own wealth.
I think that you get carried away with what a bill "could be", where you should spend more time thinking about what it "is". Unless you go online and look for information on how to blow up buildings or google "an idiots guide to terrorism", this will NEVER have any affect on you.
Theory is fine for science, but it can not be so easily applied to daily life. You seem to worry about the same things that I did when I was in college, although to your credit you are not a Democrat, as I was. Don't make yourself crazy with all of the "what if's", concentrate on the facts, not what the facts could be if the following 100 things occurred.
I can not seperate my opinion from the facts as I like to believe that my opinions are based on said facts. Unlike so many others, I can not form my opinions on such important topics with emotion alone. This is exactly why we have a Republic and not a Democracy here in the US. Emotion should not be used to make any law. As you have seen, emotion does not stand up under the scrutiny of the facts. People can wring their hands all they want, I am damn glad that we do not let every person vote on every detail.

-Logan13