400+ kids taken from polygamist compound

[Tock]

400+ kids taken from polygamist compound

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080407/...gamist_retreat

By MICHELLE ROBERTS,
Associated Press Writer
Mon Apr 7, 7:46 PM ET



ELDORADO, Texas - More than 400 children, mostly girls in pioneer dresses, were swept into state custody from a polygamist sect in what authorities described Monday as the largest child-welfare operation in Texas history.

The dayslong raid on the sprawling compound built by now-jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs was sparked by a 16-year-old girl's call to authorities that she was being abused and that girls as young as 14 and 15 were being forced into marriages with much older men.

Dressed in home-sewn, ankle-length dresses with their hair pinned up in braids, some 133 women left the Yearning for Zion Ranch of their own volition along with the children.

State troopers were holding an unknown number of men in the compound until investigators finished executing a house-to-house search of the 1,700-acre property, which includes a medical facility, numerous large housing units and an 80-foot white limestone temple that rises discordantly out of the brown scrub.

In my opinion, this is the largest endeavor we've ever been involved in in the state of Texas," said Children's Protective Services spokesman Marleigh Meisner, who said she was also involved in the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco.

The members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints spent their days raising numerous children, tilling small gardens and doing chores. But at least one former resident says life was not some idyllic replica of 19th-century life.

"Once you go into the compound, you don't ever leave it," said Carolyn Jessop, one of the wives of the alleged leader of the Eldorado complex. Jessop left with her eight children before the sect moved to Texas.
Jessop said the community emphasized self-sufficiency because they believed the apocalypse was near.

The women were not allowed to wear red — the color Jeffs said belonged to Jesus — and were not allowed to cut their hair. They were also kept isolated from the outside world.

They "were born into this," said Jessop, 40. "They have no concept of mainstream society, and their mothers were born into and have no concept of mainstream culture. Their grandmothers were born into it."
Meisner said each child will get an advocate and an attorney but predicted that if they end up permanently separated from their families, the sheltered children would have a tough acclimation to modern life.

Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Public Safety, said the criminal investigation was still under way, and that charges would be filed if investigators determined children were abused.

Still uncertain is the location of the girl whose call initiated the raid. She allegedly had a child at 15, and authorities were looking for documents, family photos or even a family Bible with lists of marriages and children to demonstrate the girl was married to Dale Barlow, 50.

Under Texas law, girls younger than 16 cannot marry, even with parental approval.

The church members were being held at Fort Concho, a 150-year-old fort built to protect frontier settlements, to be interviewed about the 16-year-old girl and whether, in fact, the teenager was among them.

DPS troopers arrested one man on a charge of interfering with the duties of a public servant during the search warrant, but it was not Barlow, Mange said.

"For the most part, residents at the ranch have been cooperative. However, because of some of the diplomatic efforts in regards to the residents, the process of serving the search warrants is taking longer than usual," said DPS spokesman Tom Vinger, who declined to elaborate. "The annex is extremely large and the temple is massive."


Barlow's probation officer, Bill Loader, told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona. Phone messages seeking comment from Loader and Barlow were not immediately returned Monday.

Barlow was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headed by Jeffs after his father's death in 2002, broke away from the Mormon church after the latter disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.
The group is concentrated along the Arizona-Utah line but several enclaves have been built elsewhere, including in Texas. Several years ago it paid $700,000 for the Eldorado property, a former exotic animal ranch, and began building the compound as authorities in Arizona and Utah began increasingly scrutinizing the group.

The compound sits down a narrow paved road and behind a hill that shields it almost entirely from view in Eldorado, a town of fewer than 2,000 surrounded by sheep ranches nearly 200 miles northwest of San Antonio. Only the 80-foot-high white temple can be seen on the horizon.

Jeffs is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., where he awaits trial for four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

In November, he was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001. The investigation prompted by the girl's call last week was the first in Texas involving the sect.

[Tock]

Don't know why folks are so upset about this. Polygamy is, after all, allowed and practiced by the "good guys" in the Bible.

Must be the Liberals again, trying to push their anti-Bible agenda on the country . . .

[SMCengineer]

^^I think it's more about pedophilia than it is about polygamy.

[kfrost06]

^^I think it's more about pedophilia than it is about polygamy.

exactly. poor kids

[Peducho0113]

^^I think it's more about pedophilia than it is about polygamy.

I totally agree with you Blome, it is more to protect the kids

[Tock]

I totally agree with you Blome, it is more to protect the kids

Would y'all have the same opinion if it was a camp of gays instead of heterosexuals?

Or would you suspect that public outrage would be somewhat more turgid had the pedophilia been perpetrated on boys instead of girls?

[SMCengineer]

Whether a heterosexual has sex with a child or a homosexual has sex with a child the result is still pedophilia. I don't see how sexual orientation comes into this.

[Peducho0113]

Pedophilia is Pedophilia gay or straight, the psychological effects on kids who suffer phedophilia will last a lifetime.

[jaysunderstudy]

Finally the government has a raid thats actually for a good cause. It is sad tho, that these young girls are brainwashed to marry 40 y/o men and, have kids by them, its a power thing with them. I don't see how these men can handle more than 1 wife, shit I got my hands full with just one g/f much less 4 or 5 wives.

[Tock]

Whether a heterosexual has sex with a child or a homosexual has sex with a child the result is still pedophilia. I don't see how sexual orientation comes into this.

Sexual orientation shouldn't affect the shock and horror civilized, non-Christian, non-Muslim people feel about this (this sort of thing happened among the wealthy Hebrew kings, as you know, and Islam allows four wives).

But, we all know the sort of talk that would be flying across the talk-radio waves had this been homosexual operation instead of a heterosexual one. Rush Limbaugh and his narrowminded right-wing conservative Bible-thumping ilk would spare neither insult noro invective as they endlessly quoted from Romans 1:

22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


My point here is that when hundreds of children are molested by heterosexuals, you don't hear the Bible thumpers rant and rail. But when the same crime is conducted by homosexuals, the TV preachers weep and wail and gnash their teeth about signs of the coming of the end times, and how the "gay agenda" is out to "homosexualize" your children. Then they flash a few photos of a tired drag queen and pass him off as a potential threat to your kids. Then there would be re-newed effort to ban gay marriage, re-newed effort to ban gays from the military, to pass laws against gay sex, etc etc etc.

I've seen it all before . . . Ugh . . . And it's pretty damm stupid . . .

[whiteowl]

it is the polygamy issue that has people up in arms....anyone who has had a child, especially anyone who has had a daughter, is incensed.....alleged men (cause i know they can not be real men) in their 50's, having sex with 14 yr olds just need to be taken out and shot....one shot....don't waste court time.....

[boots555]

God's Plan for sexuality and His definition of marriage:
When asked about marriage and divorce, Jesus said, "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." [Matthew 19:4-6; see also Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24; Ephesians 5:31]
God defines marriage as a man LEAVING HIS FATHER AND MOTHER and uniting to his wife, so that TWO become one flesh.



Tock Gods plan has always been the same. I agree with you that there shouldnt be a double standard but the bible taken in context has not changed

[lotaquestions]

i dont know what church that you have been attending (maybe rev. wrights) but i have never heard or seen these things that you are talking about in the christian churches. how ever pedophilia is wrong on any level but i belive that homosexual abuse has more long term mental side affects attached to it. and that is just from the few people that i know that have been sexually abused. it seemed to have more sever side affects on the ones that where done by the ones of the same sex. IMO

[boots555]

Read Roman ch. 1

[boots555]

I know of Homosexual men and women who have given up practicing homosexuality to follow Christ. The bible clearly speaks out against it. I love many who are practicing homosexuals but I disagree with those who practice it.

[Act of God]

I find the pedophilia issue very hard to grasp when we're dealing with 14-18 year olds. There are countless cases where a 14-16 year old is deemed able to be tried as an adult in a criminal case. How could anyone then make a blanket statement that they are unable to consent to sex? To me, pedophilia conjures up images of actual kids (pre-teen). Some states make it perfectly legal, while others will toss you in jail. I hate the idea of it being legal in one place and not another, but it beats more intrusive federal mandates. The majority of states appear to have a 16 year old age of consent, however, so I guess that would be where my moral compass would lie. Plus, 16 year olds be lookin hot these days!

Personally, I think I was able to consent starting around age 15. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince any girls of the same at the time.

As for polygamy, I find it troubling that it has such a stigma these days. We've grown to accept homosexuality to the point where it is forced down our throats on TV, schools and in the media yet we have no problem calling these other people freaks and looking down on them. While neither lifestyle is something that appeals to me, I don't see why it is anyone's business other than those involved.

I am curious, however, as to what some of our fellow homosexuals here think of polygamy.

[lotaquestions]

good point AofG. but i dont know if these girls ever consented to the sex, it seemed as if they were made to have sex with these older men, atleast in some cases.

[gixxerboy1]

I know of Homosexual men and women who have given up practicing homosexuality to follow Christ. The bible clearly speaks out against it. I love many who are practicing homosexuals but I disagree with those who practice it.

Why?

[Tock]

I am curious, however, as to what some of our fellow homosexuals here think of polygamy.

By the time people are in their 30's or 40's, they ought to have enough street smarts to know if they want to get into a polygamous relationship. And if they want to, I have no problem with it.

Younger kids, though, I don't think so. Particularly if they come from an insular cult like those Texas Christians. Not for religious grounds (which doesn't make any difference in this matter), but it's not ethical to raise women up to think that their choices are either polygamy with an old goat, or nothing.

I haven't really thought about this much, but maybe a reasonable temporary solution to this problem would be to
1) give legal civil unions to couples after age 18
2) give legal civil unions to polygamous groups after age 28
3) let churches bestow the title of "marriage" to anyone they like, but religious marriage holds no standing whatsoever in a court of law.

One huge problem I can see with polygamy is that the special rights that such a legal status confers could be abused by people wanting to structure their business partnerships as polygamous for tax purposes or legal advantages, instead of as a business partnership. I wish I had time to fritter away thinking about such things . . . but I don't . . .

[Tock]

Read Roman ch. 1

I've quoted from it.

It's complete BS, anyway . . .

[Act of God]

By the time people are in their 30's or 40's, they ought to have enough street smarts to know if they want to get into a polygamous relationship. And if they want to, I have no problem with it.

Younger kids, though, I don't think so. Particularly if they come from an insular cult like those Texas Christians. Not for religious grounds (which doesn't make any difference in this matter), but it's not ethical to raise women up to think that their choices are either polygamy with an old goat, or nothing.

I haven't really thought about this much, but maybe a reasonable temporary solution to this problem would be to
1) give legal civil unions to couples after age 18
2) give legal civil unions to polygamous groups after age 28
3) let churches bestow the title of "marriage" to anyone they like, but religious marriage holds no standing whatsoever in a court of law.

One huge problem I can see with polygamy is that the special rights that such a legal status confers could be abused by people wanting to structure their business partnerships as polygamous for tax purposes or legal advantages, instead of as a business partnership. I wish I had time to fritter away thinking about such things . . . but I don't . . .

I'm completely with the idea of civil unions for ANY couple(s) of age (whatever that age is will probably vary by state). Marriage is a religious thing, if you can get someone to marry you...good for you. You can "marry" your sister, a goat, another dude, a chick, or a bottle of Anavar for all I care.

I thought about the legal rights problem with polygamy, but I'm sure there's an answer to be found if we thought about it. I just don't think it's fair to be all happy and supportive about homosexuals and then turn around and demonize polygamists when they were recently all in the same taboo boat. Crap, I think its unnatural to expect a guy to be with one woman. If anything, polygamy is MORE natural than homosexuality, haha. I kid, kinda

[Tock]

I know of Homosexual men and women who have given up practicing homosexuality to follow Christ.

I know of some of those people who have been discovered in gay bars.
They're just misled, mistaken, misinformed folks who needlessly torment themselves for nothing . . .

The bible clearly speaks out against it.

The Bible clearly speaks out against lots of things, but you ignore most of 'em.
It's much easier for you to suggest that gay people give up gay sex, than it is for you to comply with the Ten Commandments (Thou shalt keep the Sabbath holy, etc).

Keep in mind, also, that you are free to interpret the Bible however you like. You can also live according to that interpretation. But, just as you have the right to your own interpretation, so does everyone else.
You're not going to deny that right to everyone else, are you?

[Tock]

i belive that homosexual abuse has more long term mental side affects attached to it.

You know this because of . . . what?

[Act of God]

You know this because of . . . what?

If I was going to be forcibly raped, I'd "get over it" easier if it was a chick than a dude I guess?

[lotaquestions]

You know this because of . . . what?

you dont think that it would be more tramatic experience for you to be raped by a man, rather than woman?

[Oki-Des]

Its about time.

[Tock]

you dont think that it would be more tramatic experience for you to be raped by a man, rather than woman?

Depends on the guy, I guess. Who did ya have in mind?

[lotaquestions]

Mandingo