Huge battery breakthrough - recharge cell phone --> 10 seconds; car --> five minutes?

[Flagg]

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...10-seconds.ars

Synopsis: the problem with Lithium Ion technology batteries is the long charge-up time. This is because the ions which carry the charge into the battery's salt-crystal grains aren't really that mobile and so can't move to the few "tunnel" entrances on the battery's surface that take them inside its matrix where they can pass along their charge. But by coating the crystal matrix elements with a material that acts like an ion expressway and enables the ions to move to and into these entrance points freely, the little electric dudes can penetrate and recharge the battery in a flash. Further, the resulting architecture results in a battery that doesn't lose its ability to hold a charge over time.

This is really important because it doesn't require any additional exotic materials and manufacturing can turn the corner on this new technology quite quickly, like within a couple years.


Came across this on another forum I visit and the technology behind this looks very promising. However, going through the thread and the comments from the egg heads, there is a problem. A 1 wht Cell/Mobile phone could recharge in 10 seconds, but it would require 360 W battery. To put into perspective, those of you that own XBOX 360 are aware of that huge grey adaptor that it has. That is only 160 W. Now imagine a charger that is over twice that size to charge your phone. Now imagine a battery big enough to power a car, and there in lies the impracticality. Also there is talk that one car battery would only last 100 km before needing to be recharged. Is that an inconveniance, or would that go a long way to helping with driver fatigue? What if your car runs out of juice between recharging stations, and so on.

However, if this technology could be shrunk, made more practical, the cost behind it is quite cheap:
I crunched the numbers a bit just to see how likely a gas station architecture could be with this. Assuming 180 kW charging for 5 minutes (for a total of 15 kWh) that's (for me) 5.5 NOK or about 0.8 USD's worth of mains electricity. If that gives you 100 miles that's less than 0.9 cents/mile to a CAFE standard compliant car's 6+ cents/mile.
Definitely a discovery with potential here. (I can't take credit for this, but if true then the potential behind this is huge)

At the moment, this is look far, far better than most of the other options out there at the moment. And something needs to be done soon, because I reckon in about 10 years time, oil and gas is going to become quite a rare/expensive commodity.

[Kratos]

Wanna know the real problem nobody is talking about with LIon battery tech...there simply isn't enough Lithium in the world to convert a substantial number of cars.

[Flagg]

I completely forgot about this thread and I later found that Lithium is only found in the earths crust at something like 60 ppm.

There's quite a interesting article here about the feasability of using lithium:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10077965-54.html

And it quotes: With continued 25 percent yearly growth in portable electronics, there would only be enough lithium carbonate for 1.5 million Chevy Volt-type vehicles by 2015 with "optimum production increases," according to Tahil.

[Kratos]

Yeah, idk why I clicked on this thread but I had recently done a lot of reading on the subject. I think electric cars are going to have to play a huge role in the future but all the automakes are betting a lot of Lion battery chemistry. It doesn't look like it will play out that well, with Bolivia having half of the worlds reserves in salt flats they don't look very interested in fully exploiting. The american gvmt has been persuaded to invest billions in facilities to produce Lion batteries in the US and it might just be the wrong battery chemistry to bet on.

zinc air fuel cell
silver zinc batteries
and a couple more I can't think of are good options as well
the car industry seems stuck on the Lion and for a lot of reasons they shouldn't be...for one they tend to shit the bed after not too many years of service.
In the early 90's all you had was NiCad's for rechargable
then Lion and NiMh went head to head and develompment was only focused on those two chemistries. NiMh isn't all to great in the long term either so we need to be investing in better battery chem, rather than throw billions into production facilities for detroit that could become useless.

[sloth9]

I think Hydrogen, and or a nuclear powered vehicle has a better chance, lets face there is not enough lead nor lithium in the world to make all electric cars, there will have to be a better Idea. Now I know nuclear is dangerous and everyone frowns upon it, cause it could be a weapon, but when you talk about neutrons, and radio active Isotopes, there has to be a way to completely neutralize them or jam them from being dangerous once let out. I know this sounds science fiction, which of course it is right now, but lets be open minded if nuclear product could be neutralized by a field that would be harmless to our everyday life, then it would never be possible for a nuclear bomb or nuclear powered vehicle to be used as a weapon. Now I know this must have been thought of along time ago when nuclear bombs where a huge threat, but there has to be a way. This is also Tech that is years from now too. I also think solar power might be made useful, but I feel we have to move it alot closer to the sun, like solar antenna's or possibly solar elevators or something like it that is built here on earth and houses a cable or series of cable that sends solar electricity from space where solar power is more abundant all the time and stronger too. Then this could send the power to earth and allow us a way to get solar power to work for us.

I know all of this is science fiction and years away and maybe even centuries away. But we have to look at other things because metals that are used in batteries could disappear soon, and if we replaced every car that uses gas with a battery car it will deplete that metal quicker. Just a thought but in the turn of the 20th century cars were mostly Battery operated, and then they refined the combustion engine and batteries were left high and dry. I just feel that Battery operated vehicles, and electric vehicles are not feasible, great idea, but we need another idea, in fact Toyota, Gm, Ford, and Chrysler all dropped the BOV's division years ago, and there is not too much demand for a hybrid. Any way this is really cool stuff and it is just neat to think about some of the things we could do with technology, but we need to look in every direction. The worst thing with the solar power ideas I have is cost, gravity, and our atmosphere, and then we would still need batteries to charge the vehicle, but hey its an idea though.

All in all I like the post it was cool to see something I liked other than politics.

[Nooomoto]

Fk Li-ion, for that matter...fk batteries.

[IM708]

For mass powering in power plants fusion power is where it is at. The potential is enormous and the energy created of a given weight of material is higher than any other tech currently used.

For cars, hydrogen fuel cell tech.

[Kratos]

Hydrogen fuel cells are hugely expensive at this time. Even if you get the cost down...hydrogen is most cheaply made by using fossil fuels...even if you change that you still need energy. Hydrogen is only an energy carrier, and not an energy source. It will never match the energy carrying efficency of a battery. For cost and energy efficency battery power is going to be a clear answer and represent at least a significant segment of the market in the future.

And they are plenty feasable.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/26/t...ile-range-0-6/
Who drives more than 300 miles on an average day? Wouldn't that work at least for a second car in a family, where maybe you use an longer range car for long trips? Quick charge options will happen as well. You could go into wal-mart while your car charges in the parking lot, swipe your credit card in the charger and come back to it half an hour later with a full charge.

They'll get a lot cheaper too if battery prices come down. Electric is not nearly as complex as internal combustion.

I'm just saying all the car companies are betting on Lion at the same time and it's a huge problem.

There are several battery chemistries that could be adapted to auto use and wouldn't run into production limitations or enviromental problems.

Nuclear powered cars, I'm sorry but lol.

[Kratos]

in fact Toyota, Gm, Ford, and Chrysler all dropped the BOV's division years ago, and there is not too much demand for a hybrid.

In fact GM, Toyota, Ford and Chrysler have brought the programs all back. Demand for hybids and pure battery cars is very much linked to fuel prices. Economic recovery means $5 a gallon again with less still in the ground.

Chrysler will most likely have the first of the large domestic makers in a pure electic...if they don't go belly up that is. They are commited to producing one of the bellow sometime in the next two years, but have electric prototypes of all. Not sure which one they picked? I think the van though.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2008-09/42533400.jpg
http://www.gizmag.com/chrysler-batte...picture/43581/

[Kratos]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...46240620090209


Wow, this thing is butt ugly
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10140083-54.html

GM has the volt, and I know Lutz (product czar at GM) is a big proponent of electric cars representing a segment of the market. Not sure what they have in pure electric in the pipeline, but you can bet something.

[sloth9]

In fact GM, Toyota, Ford and Chrysler have brought the programs all back. Demand for hybids and pure battery cars is very much linked to fuel prices. Economic recovery means $5 a gallon again with less still in the ground.

Chrysler will most likely have the first of the large domestic makers in a pure electic...if they don't go belly up that is. They are commited to producing one of the bellow sometime in the next two years, but have electric prototypes of all. Not sure which one they picked? I think the van though.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2008-09/42533400.jpg
http://www.gizmag.com/chrysler-batte...picture/43581/

Wow that is interesting, Now I will not drive an electric car ever, I used to work on hybrids, and well, they suck in my opinion. They are slow as hell, small cars, you cant put exhaust on them, and you cant put a system in it. I put a system in a prius and everytime it switched to electric it popped and also the car never stayed in electric long. My true opinion is that electric will not ever take hold, also the liberal dem's, and rep's are pushing all these green cars when technology isnt here yet, I think that hurts too, I dont want to bring politics in but that is my opinion too. I think that we need to look at other sources because regardless an electric car takes fossil fuels too because wind power and solar isnt strong enough for powering all of these cars, also how do they make the plastic casing for the batteries. My opinion, an electric car could be made fast but battery life will suck, after a 1/4 mile pass you will have to recharge it, gas cars, propane, hydrogen,and lp can all be made fast without the draw back of recharging. I will not buy or use an electric car until they make them more appealing alot of people here in Texas feel the same. There are people who have those little boo boo smart cars, prius' and other hybrids, but think about getting hit by an 18 wheeler or my car hauler in one of those, much less get hit by my Tundra, they will all make short work of these little baby smart cars, and electric\hybrids. If a hybrid is going to take over they will have to do like GM and start using the tech in cars already popular. I really like this thread, because it gives me something else to talk about than ranting and raving about politics and damn Kratos you know some stuff. We also have plenty of oil and the tech to get it out safely without destroying the cities or animals, but guess what there is a group of political people who dont want us to be independant of foreign fuels so yes gas will go up and then there will be more problems than the last time because the economy is so screwed, I believe people will rise this time, because that will break the country.