social security, medicare, the economy, and drunken spending binge

**thegodfather** · 05-13-2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by jfalco

Ask Karl Marx. It was his idea not mine.
Basically he said it was the next step in the evolution of society beyond democracy and it could only be sucessful in the most advanced society.

So you haven't even read Marx and you're trying to advance his ideology? What credentials do you even have to debate these topics then if you haven't read some of the most basic and fundamentals of political ideology.

**jfalco** · 05-13-2009, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

So you haven't even read Marx and you're trying to advance his ideology? What credentials do you even have to debate these topics then if you haven't read some of the most basic and fundamentals of political ideology.

Sorry but I am not trying to push Marx's ideas. I simply stated that there has never been a communist government and then I was asked to elaborate. I have not read the entire communist manifesto, but I have read excerps from it. These excerps could be discribed as "some of the most basic and fundamentals of political ideology".

That's why I said ask Marx.

I am not now nor have I ever been a communist.

**MuscleScience** · 05-13-2009, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

So you haven't even read Marx and you're trying to advance his ideology? What credentials do you even have to debate these topics then if you haven't read some of the most basic and fundamentals of political ideology.

All I can say is when and how did our educational system fail to teach the principle of capitalism and how this is a competitive society which brings the best out of its citizens. Hell with it take from the rich and give to the poor who choose not to compete in society.

**thegodfather** · 05-13-2009, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

All I can say is when and how did our educational system fail to teach the principle of capitalism and how this is a competitive society which brings the best out of its citizens. Hell with it take from the rich and give to the poor who choose not to compete in society.

Government largesse, for instance the Department of Education, the centralised education 'planners' are responsible for the deterioration in the quality of our public education system. There is absolutely no competition among the schools, meaning there is no incentive to educate students to higher levels. In fact, in some cases schools are given LARGER budgets if a significant portion of their students fail. It lends to an even bigger over arching ideology here I believe. For instance, in many public schools they have banned dodgeball, or games where there is a "clear winner and loser." It's this hippy left wing bullshit that "everyone should be a WINNER." Well unfortunately life doesn't work like that, and they are doing these children a GREAT disservice in their education by trying to indoctrinate them that everyone wins, and we can all sit round the campfire, roast f**kin marshmellows and sing Kum-Bah-Ya...They are in for a rude awakening once they hit the real world. Unfortunately, education in general, and especially higher education is overrun with left wing LIBERAL Democratic ideology.

**MuscleScience** · 05-13-2009, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Government largesse, for instance the Department of Education, the centralised education 'planners' are responsible for the deterioration in the quality of our public education system. There is absolutely no competition among the schools, meaning there is no incentive to educate students to higher levels. In fact, in some cases schools are given LARGER budgets if a significant portion of their students fail. It lends to an even bigger over arching ideology here I believe. For instance, in many public schools they have banned dodgeball, or games where there is a "clear winner and loser." It's this hippy left wing bullshit that "everyone should be a WINNER." Well unfortunately life doesn't work like that, and they are doing these children a GREAT disservice in their education by trying to indoctrinate them that everyone wins, and we can all sit round the campfire, roast f**kin marshmellows and sing Kum-Bah-Ya...They are in for a rude awakening once they hit the real world. Unfortunately, education in general, and especially higher education is overrun with left wing LIBERAL Democratic ideology.

Geez we think a lot alike.

**jfalco** · 05-13-2009, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Government largesse, for instance the Department of Education, the centralised education 'planners' are responsible for the deterioration in the quality of our public education system. There is absolutely no competition among the schools, meaning there is no incentive to educate students to higher levels. In fact, in some cases schools are given LARGER budgets if a significant portion of their students fail. It lends to an even bigger over arching ideology here I believe. For instance, in many public schools they have banned dodgeball, or games where there is a "clear winner and loser." It's this hippy left wing bullshit that "everyone should be a WINNER." Well unfortunately life doesn't work like that, and they are doing these children a GREAT disservice in their education by trying to indoctrinate them that everyone wins, and we can all sit round the campfire, roast f**kin marshmellows and sing Kum-Bah-Ya...They are in for a rude awakening once they hit the real world. Unfortunately, education in general, and especially higher education is overrun with left wing LIBERAL Democratic ideology.

Spoken like someone who has never been inside a school in the ghetto.

**Kratos** · 05-13-2009, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by jfalco

Sorry but I am not trying to push Marx's ideas. I simply stated that there has never been a communist government and then I was asked to elaborate. I have not read the entire communist manifesto, but I have read excerps from it. These excerps could be discribed as "some of the most basic and fundamentals of political ideology".

I wasn't asking you to quote Marx...or attempt to. But why would something that doesn't work in a society that isn't advanced, now sudenly start working when it becomes so? You haven't changed human nature. The system that caused the advancement should continue to do so...no?

**Kratos** · 05-13-2009, 10:44 PM

http://www.mathematical.com/windmill.html

This is where we were at in 1979 with wind...16 million dollars in today's money
for 14 kw

Today's mills can put out up to 8 MW thanks to the free maket

did you really want to scale up production of that peice of crap?

**Kratos** · 05-13-2009, 10:49 PM

are there solar panels on your house? or is it still do damn expensive?
development costs, materials, production
these take society's resources
when costs come in line with benifits that's how society votes on what's important

**Kratos** · 05-13-2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by jfalco

\
. I can envision a world where people are motivated by the common good rather than greed. I wish that there were more people who thought like me. On an individual level most people will help someone out if they can. Why can't we behave the same way as a society and just do things because they should be done without concern for personal gain?.

sorry no, human nature
glad you aren't in charge cause nobody would have a pot to piss in
people only do the right thing when they have more then enough to feel secure regardless, it's a serve yourslef first policy no matter how far into the future we go.

**jfalco** · 05-13-2009, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

I wasn't asking you to quote Marx...or attempt to. But why would something that doesn't work in a society that isn't advanced, now sudenly start working when it becomes so? You haven't changed human nature. The system that caused the advancement should continue to do so...no?

I am not a proponent of communism. I think I've said this a couple of times. I was just pointing out that it has never been tried. The governments that have been labeled communist were not.

**jfalco** · 05-13-2009, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

are there solar panels on your house? or is it still do damn expensive?
development costs, materials, production
these take society's resources
when costs come in line with benifits that's how society votes on what's important

You seem to be incapable of abstract thought. I, as you do, understand perfectly how our society works. You seem more than willing to admit that the current system doesn't work very well, but incapable of believing that there could ever be another sort of system.

**jfalco** · 05-13-2009, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

sorry no, human nature
glad you aren't in charge cause nobody would have a pot to piss in
people only do the right thing when they have more then enough to feel secure regardless, it's a serve yourslef first policy no matter how far into the future we go.

Human nature is a cop out. People are capable of changing. At one time human nature involved taking what we wanted by force with no concern for those we took from. Fortunately society moved beyond this.

Currently most people, at least in the U.S. seem to be motivated by greed. I hope humanity can move beyond this too.

I'm glad I'm not in charge too. Dealing with the mess we have created would suck.

**MuscleScience** · 05-13-2009, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by jfalco

Human nature is a cop out. People are capable of changing. At one time human nature involved taking what we wanted by force with no concern for those we took from. Fortunately society moved beyond this.

Currently most people, at least in the U.S. seem to be motivated by greed. I hope humanity can move beyond this too.

I'm glad I'm not in charge too. Dealing with the mess we have created would suck.

LOL, what!

We have not changed one damn bit!

**Kratos** · 05-13-2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by jfalco

You seem to be incapable of abstract thought. I, as you do, understand perfectly how our society works. You seem more than willing to admit that the current system doesn't work very well, but incapable of believing that there could ever be another sort of system.

the cost to society in resources is still the same no mater what system of gvmt...you don't understand that you can only distribute the resources you have and what you produce. How are you going to stimulate this level of production to distribute it with no additional gain for the producer? you can't

**Kratos** · 05-13-2009, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by jfalco

Human nature is a cop out. People are capable of changing. At one time human nature involved taking what we wanted by force with no concern for those we took from. Fortunately society moved beyond this.

Currently most people, at least in the U.S. seem to be motivated by greed. I hope humanity can move beyond this too.

I'm glad I'm not in charge too. Dealing with the mess we have created would suck.

If the shit the fan tomorrow
I had a gun and knew you had canned food
a couple of weeks goes by and I'm hungry
I'm gonna be the one eating
and I'm pretty civilized even by modern standards

**jfalco** · 05-13-2009, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

If the shit the fan tomorrow
I had a gun and knew you had canned food
a couple of weeks goes by and I'm hungry
I'm gonna be the one eating
and I'm pretty civilized even by modern standards

Too bad my canned food will be boobie trapped.

But if you came to me and said you were hungry I would share what I had and hopefully we could get more together.

Better yet, you could use that gun to hunt some food of your own rather than steal what little I had.

**j4ever41** · 05-14-2009, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by jfalco

Some people have quite a bit of wealth where as others have none and the main determining factor in this distribution is birth.

Before you start giving me examples of people born without money that became wealthy, I know that does happen, but it is unusual. This is just my opinion on what is fair. I understand that you my not agree. I can not prove this statement as it is just an opinion.

so you think it should be taken away from them because it was inherited?

**jfalco** · 05-14-2009, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by j4ever41;4627***

so you think it should be taken away from them because it was inherited?

no. and I never said that.

I was asked what I meant by unfair distribution of wealth and that was my answer.

**j4ever41** · 05-14-2009, 01:08 AM

i guess i am totally missin your point then and your use of the term "distribution"

**jfalco** · 05-14-2009, 01:13 AM

I am using distribution as in this definition:

7.A spatial or temporal array of objects or events: the distribution of theaters on Broadway

When I say distribution of wealth, it is just an easy way of saying different people have different quantities of wealth.

Hope that clears it up.

**jfalco** · 05-14-2009, 01:21 AM

Here is the Wiki definition of distribution of wealth. Perhaps it makes more sense than my rambling at 3 am:

Distribution of wealth is a comparison of the wealth of various members or groups in a society. It differs from the distribution of income in a manner analogous to the difference between position and speed.

**Kratos** · 05-14-2009, 09:26 AM

let me tell you a true story about how wealth gets distributed in this country.
My grandfather was a multi-millionaire and by that I mean not only was his business valued in several millions of dollars, but also that he had millions of dollars in stock and cash.
He only had two kids.
After the assets were split between his two kids (my parents being the only ones involved in the buisness so they decided to keep it), they had little left after deciding to stay in business. Their right to keep working included writing a check for over 5 million in death taxes...if my grandfather didn't die with that much cash, they'd either have to morgage the business or sell it.

My grandfather died much younger then he expected and didn't live in excess. He was always saving for the future and trying to leave something he could pass on. His house is on the market under a different owner for 600k right now. He had a 25 foot boat that he liked to fish on. He had a modest vacation property in Florida. He drove nothing more extravagant then a Cadillac. He didn't like to travel. One of the nicest and most popular people in the community (as are my parents). He gave more back to the community then he took for himself. He was self made in the greatest sense of the word...Both his parents were dead by the time he was 12 and left him nothing whatsoever, except for two older sisters to take care of him.

Now that he's been gone 10 years, my parents having their soul into the business (60hour + work weeks for both of them)...due to economic and mostly political conditions the future is uncertain. They have most of their personal assets supporting the business as an assurance for their line of credit. If the business fails they'll be left with a modest retirement and nothing to pass on.

If they are able to overcome and emerge profitable, they will maybe have enough time to save enough money to pass on the business to the next generation. Then we go around one more time.

I shit you not, true story. I am not involved in the day to day running of things and work for a major healthcare company at this time. I have 2 brothers and 2 sisters so I won't be even as lucky as they were.

This buisness has paid millions upon millions of dollars in taxes...employs over 50 people in well paying jobs...the gvmt has taken more then their cut. Nothing left for anyone else except stress, hypertension, and trying to hold it all together.

You wonder why the wealthy complain...there are no wealthy...they have to stand by and watch it all go up in smoke while the mob takes it all away.

**Kratos** · 05-14-2009, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by jfalco

But if you came to me and said you were hungry I would share what I had and hopefully we could get more together.

Better yet, you could use that gun to hunt some food of your own rather than steal what little I had.

I wouldn't be the only one hungry...how long are you going to be able to feed everyone who knocks on your door? you really think the deer running through the forest are going to support the whole population. I'm sorry but you're clueless to what you're capable of for survival, you'd do things you never thought possible.

Hell, I'd hunt people if I was hungry enough...I hear it tastes like chicken.

It's only out of this excess that we are finally able to turn our attention to ideals.

**jfalco** · 05-14-2009, 09:42 AM

Sorry to hear about you're parents struggles. I am sure they will pull through.

For 8 of the last 10 years their taxes have been cut, not raised so I don't understand how your story pertains to this conversation. If anything the Republicans mismanagement of their tax dollars is the cause of their woes. I would love to go back to the Clinton days.

"Conservatives" love to complain about liberals and big government, but the only time in the last 25 years that this country has experienced prosperity is for the eight years that a liberal democrat was in charge. Towards the end of those 8 years the republicans controlled congress and in that time they began the process of deregulation that has lead to the current situation. Less government control of business is the direct cause of the current recession.

BTW a modest retirement aint that bad, and since I can tell you are an intelligent and hard working guy, I am sure that you will build a fine life of your own.

**jfalco** · 05-14-2009, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kratos

I wouldn't be the only one hungry...how long are you going to be able to feed everyone who knocks on your door? you really think the deer running through the forest are going to support the whole population. I'm sorry but you're clueless to what you're capable of for survival, you'd do things you never thought possible.

Hell, I'd hunt people if I was hungry enough...I hear it tastes like chicken.

It's only out of this excess that we are finally able to turn our attention to ideals.

I would do the best I could because that is the kind of guy I am. You are right that my world view is not based on realism, but I can dream right.

Honestly, if the shit hit the fan to the point where folks were shooting each other over canned food, I would be in the mountains fending for myself and whoever chose to join me, far from the people fighting over cans. I would strategically place my door in a place where not many people had the back country skills to find it. So yes I would probably be able to attempt to feed everyone who came to my door.

**j4ever41** · 05-14-2009, 09:55 AM

Im sure Kratos will build a fine life for his self. The question is how much of it will be confiscated? Damn do we ever sleep,lol.

**Kratos** · 05-14-2009, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by jfalco

Sorry to hear about you're parents struggles. I am sure they will pull through.

For 8 of the last 10 years their taxes have been cut, not raised so I don't understand how your story pertains to this conversation. If anything the Republicans mismanagement of their tax dollars is the cause of their woes. I would love to go back to the Clinton days.

"Conservatives" love to complain about liberals and big government, but the only time in the last 25 years that this country has experienced prosperity is for the eight years that a liberal democrat was in charge. Towards the end of those 8 years the republicans controlled congress and in that time they began the process of deregulation that has lead to the current situation. Less government control of business is the direct cause of the current recession.

BTW a modest retirement aint that bad, and since I can tell you are an intelligent and hard working guy, I am sure that you will build a fine life of your own.

My parents are already in their late 50's...if they get to retire it will be well beyond the national average. They've worked a lot harder then the average person.

They let go of one of their managers not to long ago because he didn't feel like showing up for work more then 3 days a week. He was happy when they let him go..."now I'll have more time to work on my house." With unemployment now you not work for quite a while with no worries.

They have a girl in the book-keeping office...a single mom. She only works maybe 20 hours a week. Lives in a subsidized apt, food stamps. Only one kid who's 10 years old.

Many more cases like this where it's getting very easy for people who are becoming more and more happy to do very little.

I have no clue how you can even begin to assert those comments on prosperity based on Goverment. Clinton had growth in the economy despite himself due to the internet boom. Now we've had 125 years of economic downturn.

**Kratos** · 05-14-2009, 10:12 AM

fvck it you won't understand anyway

**jfalco** · 05-14-2009, 10:24 AM

Do you disagree that derelagutation of banking is one of the main causes of the current recession and the reason why your parents can need to martgage everything they have to get the credit they need to keep their business solvent.

You can't really think food stamps are bringing your folks down.

And FYI one of the things clinton did was reform the wellfare system and there is much less in the way of handouts then there was 30 years ago.

If this manager was fired with cause, he is not entitled to unemployment and your parrents should be able to sucessfully fight his claim.

People who are lazy and happy to live on handouts annoy me too, but I really don't see it as the cause of our problems. Most of the people living on unemployment want to work but can't find a job.

Since we are talking about parents, my mother has been unemployed for over a year. For most of that time she has not recieved any unemployment and when she has it was a very small amount of money. She has a biology degree and she is a certified teacher, but she can't find a job becuase she has to compete against much younger people with the same qualifications as her. Biologists are a dime a dozen in massachusetts. She has recently had to sell her house to survive, and if I hadn't been able to lend her money to pay her bills for the last year she would have been out on the street. I run a small business, and like your parents, money has recently become very tight for me, so it is a good thing my mother's house sold, because I can no longer afford to pay her bills.

I also have a cousin who had a kid when he was 20. Neither he of his wife have worked in 5 years. They expect everything to be given to them because somehow it is not their fault that they are too lazy to work and to stupid not to have a child that they can't afford. My cousin lives off SSI for a mental disability that is really only a drug addiction. Their kid is the dumbest 5 year old I have ever met. I can't stand them and I won't even talk to them anymore because they are so useless and such bad parents. So I get what you are talking about. Fvck these lazy pieces of shit. But there are two sides to ever coin. My mother, like most unemployed people, wants a job.

**jfalco** · 05-14-2009, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kratos

fvck it you won't understand anyway

I understand exactly where you are coming from. I just disagree with a lot of the things you say.

Other things you are saying I agree with, and I have tried to say that also.

**Kratos** · 05-14-2009, 01:45 PM

how long has she been teaching...it's almost always the first and second year teachers that get laid off I thought.

**SMCengineer** · 05-14-2009, 06:18 PM

I just read through most of this thread and I must say Jfalco your world view is extraordinarily naive. I respect and laud the fact that you admit though. I think your view comes from a thorough misunderstanding of economics, which is not a dispargement on you or your character but a common theme among most of the general populace (including most college professors and professional economists). To understand economics you need to study praxelogy or human action. That, at the core, is what economics will always boil down to.

Two people who I don't really agree with, but make excellent arguements on what you're discussing:
Milton Friedman on greed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

Ayn Rand on altruism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUwTH...eature=related

On a side note, if you believe that capitalism is bad you need to realize that what our system represents is a system that's been moving towards State Capitalism for nearly a century. You also need to realize that greed, while bad on it's own merits, is absolutely essential for any society to experience prosperity and is always balanced by risk in a free market. This system of checks and balaces will keep what you describe as a maldistribution of wealth at bay. However, when external institutions remove the extraordinary regulatory power of risk, we experience what we see today. The only institution capable of removing risk from a free market is government and the means by which they achieve that is through regulation.

**thegodfather** · 05-15-2009, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by jfalco

Towards the end of those 8 years the republicans controlled congress and in that time they began the process of deregulation that has lead to the current situation. Less government control of business is the direct cause of the current recession.
BTW a modest retirement aint that bad, and since I can tell you are an intelligent and hard working guy, I am sure that you will build a fine life of your own.

Im sorry, but you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. You are attempting to simplify extremely complex political and economic issues and you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about. I would venture to guess that you are parroting an episode of Keith Olbermann or some other propagandized nonsense that you heard on MSNBC or CNN, maybe even Fox. Wall street bankers, mortgage companies, etc, etc, are not even close to being to blame for our economic woes. They have always been gready, always been misleading, and have never before caused an economic collapse because of their behavior. I mean, I could write a ****ing dissertation here and try to explain the reasons behind the economic collapse, but I would probably be wasting my breathe as its quite evident to mean you would not even understand many of the terms I would use to describe what is going on. I suggest you read the book "The Road to Serfdom" by F.A. Hayek. It would go far in educating you about the value and benefits of the free market.

Instead of lecturing to you for hours on end and giving myself carpel tunnel syndrome, I will employ the socratic method here so that you might do your own reserach and become educated. You will not learn a damn thing from listening to talk show hosts with a political axe to grind, I assure you.

The cause of the economic crisis was the ongoing artificial manipulation of interest rates, credit, and the money supply by the Federal Reserve bank(a privately owned institution). Coupled with unequal deregulation of certain areas of finance and banking. Why did these factors cause the collapse?

Attempt to answer that question by doing some legitimate research and you will understand. A good resource, albeit impartial one, would be the CATO Institute, which is a libertarian think-tank in Washington DC. They write articles about the economic collapse that may simplify it enough for you to understand. Please though, do not continue to spread misinformation on topics with which you have no knowledge. That kind of ignorance perpetuates itself through society, passing from whoever you heard it from, to you, to the next person that listens to you.