Israeli takeover of the US - Pat Buchanan

[RockSolid]

Originally posted by gordero


Let's address those statements one by one:

1) Israeli Arabs do not have to carry special identification or otherwise identify themselves as Arabs. All FOREIGN workers- Arab or otherwise- do. That is perfectly reasonable, because the goverment needs to keep track of who is in their country, especially given the fact that Israel has been at war with all or some of its neighbours throughout its entire existence.

How many Palestinians work in the gulf states? NONE- they were all kicked out, even though many were born there (and denied citizenship), all because Arafat sided with Sadam Hussein in gulf war I. If Israel is such an evil place, why are so many Arabs so eager to work there?

2) NOBODY can buy land in Israel- it is all owned by the state. In most of the country, Jews and Arabs live together peacefully. The Israeli goverment has been very particular in ensuring that Arab-Israeli communities are not set up along the old border with Jordan, for obvious reasons. So in those areas, Israeli Arabs cannot lease land.

On the other hand, the State of Israel has an independent Judiciary that handles any and all disputes- including those that involve the right of Arabs to reside where they please. No other country in the middle east comes close in this respect, and the court has ruled on behalf of Arab claimants on many occasions.

3) The Israeli government does not engage in the wholesale destruction of Palestinian homes and property for the purpose of building settlements. All but a tiny number of settlements are built outside of the Arab towns in the West Bank and Gaza- on unpopulated land- and the VAST MAJORITY of "settlements" are in fact extensions to Jewish neighbourhoods in Jerusalem.

When Arab homes are destroyed by the IDF, it is because they have been built illegally. Try building a house in an American city without a permit and watch what happens.

4) This is complete and utter nonsense. The IDF entered Jenin and fought street-to-street and house-to-house battles against armed terrorists (those same terrorists who have been blowing themselves up in Israeli cities) in an effort to minimize civilian deaths and damage to property. Your figure of "10 000 homeless" is a fabrication- along with the figure of "500 dead" that came out immediately after the operation. The Israelis should be commended for the risks that they took to take out TERRORISTS (not peaceful resisters of the "occupation"), especially when they could have bombed them out of existence from the skies and thereby saved the lives of their officers (many of whom died during the operation).

5) You are also mistaken about the water situation. In fact, the PA refused to allow the Israeli goverment to connect various Arab villages to the Israeli water system, because they felt that this would represent a violation of "Palestinian sovereignty." Once again, it is a case of Arafat and his cronies screwing their own people for nothing.

Thanks for answering this, instead of getting mad. I just wanted to know if it was false or true the statments sites made, and you corrected it.

[retired]

Rock, sometimes I do get angry, which is not especially helpful. There is a great deal of misinformation floating around- especially on the internet- that can be used to misinform people on both sides of the debate.

The most disturbing aspect of this disinformation is that it leads to hatred and a demonization of the other side. Once someone has been demonized, then dialogue and compromise become impossible- after all, who wants to deal with the Devil (except for satanists)?

[paperboy]

One thing people often overlook when they talk about the 1947 partition plan is that in 1947 more than 90% of the British mandate Palestine was owned by Palestinians, and in the 'Jewish' partition 40% of people in were palestinians who own most of the land, the Palestinians being mostlt rural people and the Zionists being urban immigrants, so the plan itself was never realistic and the Arabs should not really be faulted for rejecting something that was basically just a prelude to war

I think there is a site called palestineremembered that has the stats on this from the British registries

Also I don't think it's accurate to say the 1967 war or the 58(was it 58?) suez crises were "Arab invasions" as Israeli territory was never breached and both involved surprise attacks, the 73 yom kupper war was an invasion but only of territory seized by Israel in the 67 conflict

as far as the arguments about aid, my opinion is ALL aid to Arab/Israel should be dropped with the exception of vital humanitarian assistence, the rest of the money corrupts both societies as it gives them an enabler to continue with vicious cycles of violence instead of negotiating a settement based on the 67 borders (IE completing the roadmap)

peace

the next 20 years

There is no argument (at least from me) that many of the policies...particularly the policies of the Sharon government are dubious at best.

However, again let's look at history.

In 1947, the United Nations unveiled a partition plan that would have evenly divided the land and left Jerusalem as an international city. The Israelis (or what would become Israel) agreed to the partition plan--the Palestinians did not.

On numerous occassions over the next 20 years, the Arab world invaded Israel with the hope of taking over the land completely and driving the Israelis "into the sea."

Each time, they lost.

In recent years, countries like Egypt and Jordan have secured peace with Israel because they have shown a proactive willingness to negotiate and reach a brokered solution. In Egypt's case, peace came with the return of the Sinai desert--land they lost in a war with Israel.

The Palestinians have the right to a homeland. But with rights come responsiblities--and their first priority should be coming up with their own formalized peace plan. This plan should include the proposed borders of their new state, the future of Jersusalem, and what they are going to provide in terms of international relations with Israel when a Palestinian state becomes reality. Once they put it in writing, they should accept (just as Israel must accept) that they're not going to get everything they want in a negotiated settlement.

What has happened to the Palestinian people is tragic. And yes, Israel shoulders its share of blame. However, the Arab world also bears responsibility. In countries where the line between rich and poor is more dramatic than anyplace in the world, those in power in places like Saudi Arabia for decades have fueled hatred against Israel to ensure their peoples don't turn against their own repressive regimes.

Should there ever be peace between Israel and the Arab world, it will be interesting to see what these leaders do when their people are unhappy with conditions in their own countries, but these despots no longer have Israel to use as a diversionary propaganda tool.

[Cycleon]

Let one who is close enough to washington to put in a bit of perspective.

First - If you dont think that a pro-Jewish lobby exists and that it is the single most powerfull lobby in DC, you are sorely mistaken - tho there are some that pay more (like the saudis) but none who excersise more power and influence (especially on foriegn affairs). As is well stated - you cant question support for Israel's policies without being considered "anti-semetic" - screw that I am PRO AMERICAN. And if you dont think that US media is primarily owned and staffed by a VERY disproportionate number of jewish people, then I suggest you start learning the ethnicity of "shultzburgher". Does that mean they are this single minded cabal running the US from smoke filled rooms? no, just that they use a lot of influence to push for policies that IMO are NOT in true US interest and for the good of AMERICANS.

Secondly, what we mostly get from Israel is intelligence and some of it is quite good - problem is, unlike the Brits, who also share intel - we are always trying to decipher if the mossad is trying to get us to do its dirty work.

Third, Israel continues to exist today because the US says so - sure they could defend themselves against a few arabs but if enough got together they could come rolling over the golan heights - which of course would trigger the Samson option of Israel lobbing a nuke or two. But the flip side is the Palestinians continue to exist today because the US says so - because if the US said ok, Sharon would kill or push every single one of them out - probably then causing the fracas mentioned above - main point is, they both continue due to US say so, and I expect a F@@king lot more gratitude for it from both sides

The israelis really do treat palestinians like slaves (much like the Saudis do) - they continue to ensure that the pal economy does not grow on its own, silently boycott any pal products that are not run or owned by israelis - who see pals as cheap labor - pals are grateful for the jobs since arabs dont seem to be to keen on getting an economy going - but after awhile start resenting the fact that they can never move past the lowest rungs

Finally, I dont give a damn about jews and I give even less of one about Arabs - what I care about is AMERICANS. And what I want to see is our gov move for AMERICAN interests - if jewish or arabs interests just happen to match those, then fine - otherwise too bad

[skinjob]

nicely put Cycleon.

[KAEW44]

When i read the title of the thread i thought this would be a simple argument of pro/anti israel using minimal and very crappy reasoning, but after reading through it seems people here know what they are talking about exacly!
Taking a side all depends on who you talk to, you could either look at it as the palestinian terorists are killing israelis, or you can look at it as the israeli's are killing the palestinians ruthlessly.....its all about wich media you choose to follow.
Every terrorist attack on israel and Israeli attack on palestinians is considered a 'retaliation' to teh other side that supposedly 'started it' so we have to look way way back to see who really started it!!

Jewish people were always allowed to live in Israel, but when more european Jews started coming in...it was the palestinians that started a wave of hostility towards them...there was enough space for everyone to get along there...but pure racism and intolerance is what caused the hostility in the first place.

[singern]

Let one who is close enough to washington to put in a bit of perspective.

First - If you dont think that a pro-Jewish lobby exists and that it is the single most powerfull lobby in DC, you are sorely mistaken - tho there are some that pay more (like the saudis) but none who excersise more power and influence (especially on foriegn affairs). As is well stated - you cant question support for Israel's policies without being considered "anti-semetic" - screw that I am PRO AMERICAN. And if you dont think that US media is primarily owned and staffed by a VERY disproportionate number of jewish people, then I suggest you start learning the ethnicity of "shultzburgher". Does that mean they are this single minded cabal running the US from smoke filled rooms? no, just that they use a lot of influence to push for policies that IMO are NOT in true US interest and for the good of AMERICANS.

Secondly, what we mostly get from Israel is intelligence and some of it is quite good - problem is, unlike the Brits, who also share intel - we are always trying to decipher if the mossad is trying to get us to do its dirty work.

Third, Israel continues to exist today because the US says so - sure they could defend themselves against a few arabs but if enough got together they could come rolling over the golan heights - which of course would trigger the Samson option of Israel lobbing a nuke or two. But the flip side is the Palestinians continue to exist today because the US says so - because if the US said ok, Sharon would kill or push every single one of them out - probably then causing the fracas mentioned above - main point is, they both continue due to US say so, and I expect a F@@king lot more gratitude for it from both sides

The israelis really do treat palestinians like slaves (much like the Saudis do) - they continue to ensure that the pal economy does not grow on its own, silently boycott any pal products that are not run or owned by israelis - who see pals as cheap labor - pals are grateful for the jobs since arabs dont seem to be to keen on getting an economy going - but after awhile start resenting the fact that they can never move past the lowest rungs

Finally, I dont give a **** about jews and I give even less of one about Arabs - what I care about is AMERICANS. And what I want to see is our gov move for AMERICAN interests - if jewish or arabs interests just happen to match those, then fine - otherwise too bad

What a load of BULL , Get me a shovel.
So you are some high level Gov agent are you, cause you have all this top secret info on CIA, Mosad, NSA, and national security dealings and policies. Palastinian slavery, give me a break, where did you get this the HAMAS website???
Please, you know as much about this stuff as my goldfish.

[KAEW44]

Although we all have freedom of opinion and speech, singern i still think it was unwise to discredit the mighty servant of the sacred fire, AKA the wielder of the flame!
Look more deeply into his arguments before saying he know nothing.

[singern]

Although we all have freedom of opinion and speech, singern i still think it was unwise to discredit the mighty servant of the sacred fire, AKA the wielder of the flame!
Look more deeply into his arguments before saying he know nothing.

You are correct regarding freedom of expression, and as a proud American this is fundamental, However posting fictional conspiracy theories created to distort, mislead, and falsely accuse, then say it is all fact and that you are some kind of insider in the intelligence world who knows all. I am very sorry but this is not acceptable and should be frowned upon by the mods, and all members.
Shame on you Cycleon, we expect better from a role model.

[Cycleon]

there is no shame to me whatsoever - and if you will look closely, I have clearly stated that there is no conspiracy, just many people doing what they believe is in their own and those they support best interests' - but it would be shear blindness or willfull folly not to acknowlege that there are industries where those of jewish heritage tend to be disproportionately large - the diamond business is one of them - the TV, movie and print media is another one - because of this particular industry, their individual interests are broadcast more forcefully than many other groups who might be concentrated in the tomato growing industry.

again, Israel is clear about seeking its own interests and that is what the Israeli people have tasked Sharon to do - I suggest that the American people have hired our lawmakeers to do the same - much of the time our interests are aligned but not always - and it is a fact that the US has put up with a LOT of gaff on israel's account

as to the way israelis treat palestinians (if there is such a thing) - that is also factual - they are a source of cheap labor and even arab israeli citizens (a number of whom are Christian) are 2nd class citizens - it is perhaps understandable considering that israelis always have to be on the lookout for a pal with an explosive personality but it is what it is

now, my knowlege is not just from books or a paper or two I read here and there but beacuse I do speak or have spoken to people who make some decisions in the matters at hand - but those are thoughts for another day

[tryingtogetbig]

You are correct regarding freedom of expression, and as a proud American this is fundamental, However posting fictional conspiracy theories created to distort, mislead, and falsely accuse, then say it is all fact and that you are some kind of insider in the intelligence world who knows all. I am very sorry but this is not acceptable and should be frowned upon by the mods, and all members.
Shame on you Cycleon, we expect better from a role model.

Singern....prove him wrong. All you are saying is that cycleon doesn't know what he's talking about....so....prove him wrong. Can you?

Personally, I tend to lean towards cycleon's point of view....which I understood to be his point of view...Nowhere did he say this is the only fact and you can't try and dispute his facts....and he didn't say that all who patron AR have to believe his words. So, why would AR have any problem with him expressing his point of views....just becasuse you don't agree with them?

I am open to hearing some factual statements and opinions debating his point of view...preferrably with references as well.

peace,

ttgb

[singern]

Singern....prove him wrong. All you are saying is that cycleon doesn't know what he's talking about....so....prove him wrong. Can you?
ttgb

OK the first line of his post "Let one who is close enough to washington to put in a bit of perspective" this tells us that he is privi to intel that we would not have, Not opinion but inside facts. Which I highly doubt is credible.

"tho there are some that pay more (like the saudis) but none who excersise more power and influence (especially on foriegn affairs). "
So he is also involved in foreign affairs and dispomatic issues, and implies that us political divisions secretly work to the advantage of Israel and not the usa

"what we mostly get from Israel is intelligence and some of it is quite good - problem is, unlike the Brits, who also share intel - we are always trying to decipher if the mossad is trying to get us to do its dirty work."
Here we are to beleave that he has inside information of the most secret national agencys, both Israeli and american. He knows what where and how these agencys work, and operate...


"Israel continues to exist today because the US says so - sure they could defend themselves against a few arabs but if enough got together they could come rolling over the golan heights :
Im very currious where this bull came from, yes Israel gets financial support from USA but never a single US solder or military presance in any conflict in the history of Irael. And yes Israel has in the past deffended and defeted multiple agressive military conflicts from sorrounding arab states.


"The israelis really do treat palestinians like slaves (much like the Saudis do) - they continue to ensure that the pal economy does not grow on its own, "
Now this one is word for word right out of the PLO handbook, Before the Palestinians started using Terror as a diplomatic tool, there economy was booming, buisness, hospotals, education, water, electric infrastructure, economy was at an all time high in the history of the Middle east. I would like to see what would happen to the Canadian economy if hords of terrorists every day tried to come across the border into the USA, We would close the border so tight a moose wouldnt cross without getting shot in the ass.
Well there you go.
Peace back at you...