Mosque approved at Ground Zero

[stevey_6t9]

Hey, Chicken Little, the sky really isn't falling!!!

lmao.

talking about conspiracies since this thread is full of them...

2pac is still alive! the government is hiding him under barack obama to keep the white house extra black. its true here il show you the math

1243234\45365* 45.34458- 465463 = 2pac alive

[Mooseman33]

zabster u are shit crazy man....

no need to continue.

[zabster151]

o well i tried no hard feelings i love to debate.

[BgMc31]

lmao.

talking about conspiracies since this thread is full of them...

2pac is still alive! the government is hiding him under barack obama to keep the white house extra black. its true here il show you the math

1243234\45365* 45.34458- 465463 = 2pac alive

I luv it!!! You gotta understand that 2Pac is the second coming and that he will deliver the black man to his rightful place...THE HEAD OF THE WORLD! Barack is just preparing the earth for his coming. ALL WILL KNEEL TO THE BOOT OF THE BLACK MAN!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[stevey_6t9]

I luv it!!! You gotta understand that 2Pac is the second coming and that he will deliver the black man to his rightful place...THE HEAD OF THE WORLD! Barack is just preparing the earth for his coming. ALL WILL KNEEL TO THE BOOT OF THE BLACK MAN!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

its true man and im a conspiracist... so 2pac + Biggy small + michael jackson + martin luther king jnr + barry white all faked their deaths and the government is hiding the truth. someone in brazil found a piece of toast that resembles my conspiracy also if you dont believe me...

[Flagg]

Zabster how do you know for certain that you are 100% correct? That's the same kinda thinking that these christian and muslim fundamentalists have in that they are 100% correct, follow us and you go to Heaven or die. That concept alone is ridiculous to me, but not them.

Prehaps we'll never know, not in this life time, what happened on 911 but always keep an open mind. Don't throw yourself into something so fully and at the very least, don't patronise everyone else because you believe they are wrong.

[zabster151]

what part of free fall speed don't you get. Ok here we go when a building falls straight down into its own foot print there is resistance. Unless every floor is blown out from under the next. thats the only way to create free fall. "still with me" so unless that happens it is impossible for a building to fall at free fall speed. "Ok ready" now NIST has stated that all three buildings fell at free fall speed. Now we saw the buildings fall they fell pretty fast and direct "correct" so thats imposable being how there were hundreds of floors between the top and ground unless control demo. and if you have ever seen a building of that magnitude being built its like a rats nest of steel re bar garters and concrete pretty much buildings don't fall that way when built that well. unless controlled demo. so thats were i get 100% because the science math and common sense show me 100% confidence. http://ae911truth.org/ these are the top architect in the world

[Bonaparte]

Back to the original topic: Who cares if they build a mosque? If they bought the plot of land, they basically have the right to build whatever the hell they want there. Besides, it isn't even that close to Ground Zero, anyway. This whole thing sounds to me like Fox News is finally running out of things to scare hicks with.

[zabster151]

well they say Muslims killed Americans there that day. Now they build place for Muslims to pray. don't you think its a little messed up i mean of all places. its kinda like someone blows your house up you die then they give the property to the guy who blew your house up.weird

[tupollo]

Back to the original topic: Who cares if they build a mosque? If they bought the plot of land, they basically have the right to build whatever the hell they want there. Besides, it isn't even that close to Ground Zero, anyway. This whole thing sounds to me like Fox News is finally running out of things to scare hicks with.

does the westboro baptist church have the right to protest marines funerals and thank god for their deaths?...yes...should they....no.

[Bonaparte]

does the westboro baptist church have the right to protest marines funerals and thank god for their deaths?...yes...should they....no.

Although that isn't exactly a fair comparison, you made my point for me. They can and they will, so there is no point in getting all up in arms about it (in the mosque case). The reason it is an unfair comparison is that the muslims in their new mosque aren't going to be praising the 911 bombers all day (I would hope and assume). They aren't going out of their way to piss anyone off (unlike the Wesboro people who can't be ignored).

[tupollo]

Although that isn't exactly a fair comparison, you made my point for me. They can and they will, so there is no point in getting all up in arms about it (in the mosque case). The reason it is an unfair comparison is that the muslims in their new mosque aren't going to be praising the 911 bombers all day (I would hope and assume). They aren't going out of their way to piss anyone off (unlike the Wesboro people who can't be ignored).

i understand your point but i fear that is exactly what they are trying to do.this mosque is supposed to be a bridge to the west.what kind of bridge is built in defiance of the people you are trying to make good relations with?right or wrong most Americans dont want that mosque there.why would you insist on it if all you wanted to was build a place of understanding?

2, im very disturbed by this immams background and anti american toeing jihadi line comments and find it wholly distasteful to have this guy building anything anywhere near the twin tower site....but again legally he can do what he wants i guess...

i dont think there is anything we can do legally. perhaps build a muslim gay bar right next door?

[JDawg1536]

well they say Muslims killed Americans there that day. Now they build place for Muslims to pray. don't you think its a little messed up i mean of all places. its kinda like someone blows your house up you die then they give the property to the guy who blew your house up.weird

I know what you mean, man. Ever since the Oklahoma City Bombing, I just can't believe the nerve of these white people. They are trying to take this place over and are a serious threat to this country. We need to stop this shit ASAP.

[tupollo]

I know what you mean, man. Ever since the Oklahoma City Bombing, I just can't believe the nerve of these white people. They are trying to take this place over and are a serious threat to this country. We need to stop this shit ASAP.

1,that act of terror may have been backed by me operatives (see book: The Third Terrorist: The Middle East Connection to the Oklahoma City Bombing).

2, are you seriously comparing the one act to islamic terrorism?

[tupollo]

"I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves." quoted by Ernesto Guevara. I don't know if you guys watched the movie Che but i was really inspiring. He fights a two year campaign overthrowing U.S.-backed Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batist. Its a must watch, anyways I agree with BJJ and zabster a lot of people rather have their govt doing their thinking for them than them doing it themselves. Too much ignorance in our country. A revolutionary like Che come around every few hundred years.

che was a great great man...must see video....


http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/200358-1

[tupollo]

Hey i just gave my solution here it is again



10 raise minimum wage to cost of living standers

your better then this...govermint planning never works and eventually harms the people it is supposed to help.

the minimum wage should be abolished (as well as most restrictions on commerce and trade).

the government can not decide how much labour is worth.only the market and the supply and demand system can decide how much any product,good or service is worth.

the minimum wage hurts the american worker.i can not undercut illegal aliens or others who are willing to compete and work for a lower wage.once you take bartering out of a system it fails to be free and will always hurt the market in the long run.

raising minimum wage rates will cause employers to hire less workers.if i have to pay my 10 employees 10 an hour when previously i was paying them 7.15 i now have more costs to contend with.i must either shrink my workforce,make shitty products,or reduce production speed to cover my costs.so instead of having a low paying job you now have no job.

to much misunderstanding of basic economic principals and replacing market theory with class warfare will effect the job market and the price of products negatively.

you can not decide value.value is.a=a.telling me how much my labour is worth does not make it so.it may be more it may be less.the employer has no incentive to hire new workers for more then the minimum standard only when there is a standard.he is free to pay as he wishes without that standard as are his competitors.who is the state to say that in order to protect me all my labour has a minimum value? i defy such notions and resent them.

value is.a=a.

during a time in the country when we had high oil prices hawai decided to its peril to lower gas prices.of course paying less at the pump because the state says gas is worth less then it really is does nothing to actually decrease prices.the entire cost of production of said oil went through the roof.hawai eventually stopped the program.

value is.a=a.

a great poem on the greatness of the line of production is- i pencil (referenced in milton friedman's -freedom to choose.Chicago school of economics).

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htk9ZqW6b1I
part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9zcnIuXPdg

or in full:

, Pencil
My Family Tree as told to Leonard E. Read
RP.1
I am a lead pencil—the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write.*

RP.2
Writing is both my vocation and my avocation; that's all I do.

RP.3
You may wonder why I should write a genealogy. Well, to begin with, my story is interesting. And, next, I am a mystery—more so than a tree or a sunset or even a flash of lightning. But, sadly, I am taken for granted by those who use me, as if I were a mere incident and without background. This supercilious attitude relegates me to the level of the commonplace. This is a species of the grievous error in which mankind cannot too long persist without peril. For, the wise G. K. Chesterton observed, "We are perishing for want of wonder, not for want of wonders."

RP.4
I, Pencil, simple though I appear to be, merit your wonder and awe, a claim I shall attempt to prove. In fact, if you can understand me—no, that's too much to ask of anyone—if you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing. I have a profound lesson to teach. And I can teach this lesson better than can an automobile or an airplane or a mechanical dishwasher because—well, because I am seemingly so simple.

RP.5
Simple? Yet, not a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me. This sounds fantastic, doesn't it? Especially when it is realized that there are about one and one-half billion of my kind produced in the U.S.A. each year.

RP.6
Pick me up and look me over. What do you see? Not much meets the eye—there's some wood, lacquer, the printed labeling, graphite lead, a bit of metal, and an eraser.

Innumerable Antecedents

RP.7
Just as you cannot trace your family tree back very far, so is it impossible for me to name and explain all my antecedents. But I would like to suggest enough of them to impress upon you the richness and complexity of my background.

RP.8
My family tree begins with what in fact is a tree, a cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon. Now contemplate all the saws and trucks and rope and the countless other gear used in harvesting and carting the cedar logs to the railroad siding. Think of all the persons and the numberless skills that went into their fabrication: the mining of ore, the making of steel and its refinement into saws, axes, motors; the growing of hemp and bringing it through all the stages to heavy and strong rope; the logging camps with their beds and mess halls, the cookery and the raising of all the foods. Why, untold thousands of persons had a hand in every cup of coffee the loggers drink!

RP.9
The logs are shipped to a mill in San Leandro, California. Can you imagine the individuals who make flat cars and rails and railroad engines and who construct and install the communication systems incidental thereto? These legions are among my antecedents.

RP.10
Consider the millwork in San Leandro. The cedar logs are cut into small, pencil-length slats less than one-fourth of an inch in thickness. These are kiln dried and then tinted for the same reason women put rouge on their faces. People prefer that I look pretty, not a pallid white. The slats are waxed and kiln dried again. How many skills went into the making of the tint and the kilns, into supplying the heat, the light and power, the belts, motors, and all the other things a mill requires? Sweepers in the mill among my ancestors? Yes, and included are the men who poured the concrete for the dam of a Pacific Gas & Electric Company hydroplant which supplies the mill's power!

RP.11
Don't overlook the ancestors present and distant who have a hand in transporting sixty carloads of slats across the nation.

RP.12
Once in the pencil factory—$4,000,000 in machinery and building, all capital accumulated by thrifty and saving parents of mine—each slat is given eight grooves by a complex machine, after which another machine lays leads in every other slat, applies glue, and places another slat atop—a lead sandwich, so to speak. Seven brothers and I are mechanically carved from this "wood-clinched" sandwich.

RP.13
My "lead" itself—it contains no lead at all—is complex. The graphite is mined in Ceylon. Consider these miners and those who make their many tools and the makers of the paper sacks in which the graphite is shipped and those who make the string that ties the sacks and those who put them aboard ships and those who make the ships. Even the lighthouse keepers along the way assisted in my birth—and the harbor pilots.

RP.14
The graphite is mixed with clay from Mississippi in which ammonium hydroxide is used in the refining process. Then wetting agents are added such as sulfonated tallow—animal fats chemically reacted with sulfuric acid. After passing through numerous machines, the mixture finally appears as endless extrusions—as from a sausage grinder-cut to size, dried, and baked for several hours at 1,850 degrees Fahrenheit. To increase their strength and smoothness the leads are then treated with a hot mixture which includes candelilla wax from Mexico, paraffin wax, and hydrogenated natural fats.

RP.15
My cedar receives six coats of lacquer. Do you know all the ingredients of lacquer? Who would think that the growers of castor beans and the refiners of castor oil are a part of it? They are. Why, even the processes by which the lacquer is made a beautiful yellow involve the skills of more persons than one can enumerate!

RP.16
Observe the labeling. That's a film formed by applying heat to carbon black mixed with resins. How do you make resins and what, pray, is carbon black?

RP.17
My bit of metal—the ferrule—is brass. Think of all the persons who mine zinc and copper and those who have the skills to make shiny sheet brass from these products of nature. Those black rings on my ferrule are black nickel. What is black nickel and how is it applied? The complete story of why the center of my ferrule has no black nickel on it would take pages to explain.

RP.18
Then there's my crowning glory, inelegantly referred to in the trade as "the plug," the part man uses to erase the errors he makes with me. An ingredient called "factice" is what does the erasing. It is a rubber-like product made by reacting rape-seed oil from the Dutch East Indies with sulfur chloride. Rubber, contrary to the common notion, is only for binding purposes. Then, too, there are numerous vulcanizing and accelerating agents. The pumice comes from Italy; and the pigment which gives "the plug" its color is cadmium sulfide.

No One Knows

RP.19
Does anyone wish to challenge my earlier assertion that no single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me?

RP.20
Actually, millions of human beings have had a hand in my creation, no one of whom even knows more than a very few of the others. Now, you may say that I go too far in relating the picker of a coffee berry in far off Brazil and food growers elsewhere to my creation; that this is an extreme position. I shall stand by my claim. There isn't a single person in all these millions, including the president of the pencil company, who contributes more than a tiny, infinitesimal bit of know-how. From the standpoint of know-how the only difference between the miner of graphite in Ceylon and the logger in Oregon is in the type of know-how. Neither the miner nor the logger can be dispensed with, any more than can the chemist at the factory or the worker in the oil field—paraffin being a by-product of petroleum.

RP.21
Here is an astounding fact: Neither the worker in the oil field nor the chemist nor the digger of graphite or clay nor any who mans or makes the ships or trains or trucks nor the one who runs the machine that does the knurling on my bit of metal nor the president of the company performs his singular task because he wants me. Each one wants me less, perhaps, than does a child in the first grade. Indeed, there are some among this vast multitude who never saw a pencil nor would they know how to use one. Their motivation is other than me. Perhaps it is something like this: Each of these millions sees that he can thus exchange his tiny know-how for the goods and services he needs or wants. I may or may not be among these items.

No Master Mind

RP.22
There is a fact still more astounding: the absence of a master mind, of anyone dictating or forcibly directing these countless actions which bring me into being. No trace of such a person can be found. Instead, we find the Invisible Hand at work. This is the mystery to which I earlier referred.

RP.23
It has been said that "only God can make a tree." Why do we agree with this? Isn't it because we realize that we ourselves could not make one? Indeed, can we even describe a tree? We cannot, except in superficial terms. We can say, for instance, that a certain molecular configuration manifests itself as a tree. But what mind is there among men that could even record, let alone direct, the constant changes in molecules that transpire in the life span of a tree? Such a feat is utterly unthinkable!

RP.24
I, Pencil, am a complex combination of miracles: a tree, zinc, copper, graphite, and so on. But to these miracles which manifest themselves in Nature an even more extraordinary miracle has been added: the configuration of creative human energies—millions of tiny know-hows configurating naturally and spontaneously in response to human necessity and desire and in the absence of any human master-minding! Since only God can make a tree, I insist that only God could make me. Man can no more direct these millions of know-hows to bring me into being than he can put molecules together to create a tree.

RP.25
The above is what I meant when writing, "If you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing." For, if one is aware that these know-hows will naturally, yes, automatically, arrange themselves into creative and productive patterns in response to human necessity and demand—that is, in the absence of governmental or any other coercive masterminding—then one will possess an absolutely essential ingredient for freedom: a faith in free people. Freedom is impossible without this faith.

RP.26
Once government has had a monopoly of a creative activity such, for instance, as the delivery of the mails, most individuals will believe that the mails could not be efficiently delivered by men acting freely. And here is the reason: Each one acknowledges that he himself doesn't know how to do all the things incident to mail delivery. He also recognizes that no other individual could do it. These assumptions are correct. No individual possesses enough know-how to perform a nation's mail delivery any more than any individual possesses enough know-how to make a pencil. Now, in the absence of faith in free people—in the unawareness that millions of tiny know-hows would naturally and miraculously form and cooperate to satisfy this necessity—the individual cannot help but reach the erroneous conclusion that mail can be delivered only by governmental "master-minding."

Testimony Galore

RP.27
If I, Pencil, were the only item that could offer testimony on what men and women can accomplish when free to try, then those with little faith would have a fair case. However, there is testimony galore; it's all about us and on every hand. Mail delivery is exceedingly simple when compared, for instance, to the making of an automobile or a calculating machine or a grain combine or a milling machine or to tens of thousands of other things. Delivery? Why, in this area where men have been left free to try, they deliver the human voice around the world in less than one second; they deliver an event visually and in motion to any person's home when it is happening; they deliver 150 passengers from Seattle to Baltimore in less than four hours; they deliver gas from Texas to one's range or furnace in New York at unbelievably low rates and without subsidy; they deliver each four pounds of oil from the Persian Gulf to our Eastern Seaboard—halfway around the world—for less money than the government charges for delivering a one-ounce letter across the street!

RP.28
The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth.

RP.29

Leonard E. Read (1898-1983) founded FEE in 1946 and served as its president until his death.

[Matt]

This was almost an interesting thread until the conspiracy bollocks started, those that believe the US (cia) were behind the 9,11 bombings should grow up because your starting to sound really retarded and id have to question your age.....

[zabster151]

sorry 007 but there is too much real evidence to show it was controlled demo. i cant believe you guys cant see this.

[BJJ]

I do not know who was behind 9/11, how could I?

But, fortunately for me I know maths and I do know it was a planned demolition.

For me it is enough, it is a proof of "ruling the world" basing everything on a cause and effect scenario.

[zabster151]

Thank you. Was wondering where you were BJJ.

[Aussiebb]

I do not know who was behind 9/11, how could I?

But, fortunately for me I know maths and I do know it was a planned demolition.

For me it is enough, it is a proof of "ruling the world" basing everything on a cause and effect scenario.

Agree.Im in australia and i beleive it was a controlled demo.

Even the plane hitting the pentagon was bullshit.Countless research, videos etc that a plane never hit the pentagon.No plane wreck, no plane parts, no luggage etc.

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

[wanabeMASSIVE!]

I personally think 911 was an inside job there's way to many conspiracies to say it wasn't... as for the mosque its all good. People are entitled to opinion freedom of speech and a freedom to do what they please...

[wanabeMASSIVE!]

tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.

it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
fvck islam..

i hope that was ignornant enough for u...

Is that why Islam is the fastest growing religion within the United States?

[HoRuS]

I do not know who was behind 9/11, how could I?

But, fortunately for me I know maths and I do know it was a planned demolition.

For me it is enough, it is a proof of "ruling the world" basing everything on a cause and effect scenario.

It is so obvious that is was planned and a controlled demolition. The towers were built to withstand such incidents and even earthquakes. If it was a simple plane crash then the tower would be still standing. The impact and cosequent aviation fuel explosion was nowhere near enough damage to bring down the tower. At most, part of the top of the tower could have toppled over and fallen beside the tower but survivors reported explosions all through the tower and proof of explosives were found throuought the rubble. Nothing can bring down a building to fall within its own footprint except a very professional controlled demolition. Skyscrapers are designed this way or else they would collapse every time there was any minor earth tremor.

The only people who can't see this are those who refuse to see the massive amount of evidence or refuse to even research the real findings because they don't want to believe their own government was responsible for the murder of its own people.

[HoRuS]

Controlled Demolition

The Model for 'removing' skyscrapers is the Penzer Building in Detroit, courtesy of Controlled Demolition, Inc. Notice the yellow enclosed area showing some of the cutter charges that demolished ALL of the support columns on one floor. The total weight of the unsupported structure hammered the building to the ground after the core structure was blown to pieces:


COMPARE the clouds of the cutter charges at the North Tower with those at the Penzer Building in the first photograph:



FEMA, the Federal Government agency that covered up the OKC bombing, arrived in NYC on 9/10 claims:

Review of videotape recordings of the collapse taken from various angles indicates that the transmission tower on top of the structure began to move downward and laterally slightly before movement was evident at the exterior walls. This suggests that collapse began with one or more failures in the central core area of the building.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_ch2.htm

[HoRuS]

What If Everything You Know About 9/11 is Wrong?

Interview by Bruce David and Carolyn Sinclair

We all know what happened on September 11, 2001-Osama bin Laden inspired 19 Muslim extremists to hijack commercial airplanes and fly them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon. But what if it didn't happen that way at all?

David Ray Griffin is a professor of theology, a well-respected scholar and author of more than 20 books, including The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions and The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11. Griffin maintains that the evidence contradicts the government's official story and that, so far, nobody's come up with a theory that can account for all of the facts.

At HUSTLER we believe the murder of 2,986 innocent people demands hard questions and digging deeper. We're especially troubled by the collapse of Building 7, but we're determined to keep an open mind. As such, we sit down with Griffin to discuss what appear to be disturbing inconsistencies with the government's story.

HUSTLER: You've compiled a record of the facts-but are they beyond dispute?

DAVID RAY GRIFFIN: I simply gather research that has been done by others, a lot of it based on mainline stories from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and The Guardian and so on. These reports tend to, more or less, contradict the official theory.

You say there's reason to question the government's official position on Osama bin Laden.

One problem with the official theory of the attacks being pulled off entirely by the 19 men named as al Qaeda terrorists is that six of them have, subsequently, shown up very much alive. This has been reported in the BBC, but not in the American mainstream press. One guy even walked into the U.S. Embassy and asked what was this nonsense about his having died on 9/11?

What are some other problems with the official story?

The government had every reason to know this was going to happen. There were some 52 warnings of the attack, many of which the Bush Administration didn't see fit to have released until after the inauguration. A little bit came out during the 9/11 hearings. For example Condoleezza Rice-who had been describing the famous August 6, 2001, memo from British intelligence as merely historical in nature-was forced to admit that the title of it was "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Within the United States." Many people have thought that was the strongest evidence of foreknowledge-but not at all.

Another example involves David Schippers, the attorney who prosecuted Bill Clinton and is highly thought of in Republican circles. Schippers says he called up Attorney General John Ashcroft repeatedly to tell him that FBI agents were warning of an attack, that they knew the date and said it was going to be in Lower Manhattan. Schippers couldn't get the Attorney General's office to call him back. The New American, a conservative political magazine, interviewed these FBI agents and confirmed their story.

Further evidence of foreknowledge involves the Secret Service's seeming to not only know the attacks were coming, but know who was targeted and who was not. That morning [of September 11], Bush was in a classroom in Sarasota, Florida, publicizing his education program. After the second building was struck, there could be no doubt the country was under attack. Yet Bush just sat there for about ten minutes.

Many people have criticized the President for not getting up immediately and going into commander-in-chief mode, but really, the Pentagon handles these things. Standard operating procedure dictates the Secret Service should have sprung into action and whisked Bush out of the classroom, into a car and away to some secure location.

The Secret Service should have assumed that the President would be the next target and at least take action as if that might be the case. The head of the FAA had just reported that there were 11 planes unaccounted for; and so there might have been 11 hijacked planes at that time. Yet the Secret Service did nothing. Bush went on national TV at about 9:30 for a prescheduled talk, and then they got in the limousine and went in the caravan on the normally scheduled route to the airport. When they got to the airport, they hadn't even called ahead to make sure there was jet fighter cover for Air Force One.

What are some of the contradictions involving the attacks?

One involves the story about the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings. We had three buildings collapse there, the North Tower [WTC 1], the South Tower [WTC 2] and Building 7 [WTC 7]. Each was a high-rise steel-frame building. Now, steel-frame high-rise buildings have never in the history of the universe been brought down by fire. And yet on this day, three of them were allegedly brought down by fire. There have been experiments with buildings raging with fire. In the experiments, fire made them sag a little, but never caused them to collapse. [See Madrid high-rise fire, page 34.] And yet on 9/11 these three buildings, which had relatively small fires in them, collapsed.

People have the image of the South Tower in their minds, and they think, Oh, these were towering infernos. But most of the jet fuel exploded outside of the South Tower, which produced the really dramatic effect. But you have to remember, that effect only lasted for a few seconds, and the fuel burned up very quickly. In the South Tower there was relatively little fuel to feed the fire inside; so it would have had to be feeding on carpets, on desks and things like that. And yet the South Tower collapsed in less than an hour after it was hit.

The collapse of Building 7 is particularly unusual, and yet the 9/11 Commission never mentions it once in their report. Somehow fire got started in Building 7, which is two blocks away and was never hit by a plane. There was no jet fuel inside to feed the fire. There are photographs that show only small fires on floors 7 and 12 of this 47-story building. And yet at 5:20 in the afternoon it comes collapsing down in exactly the same way as the other buildings.

Now I stress in the same way because they all came straight down into their own footprint for the most part. They collapsed very quickly, within about ten seconds. That's amazing when you think about it, that fire could produce that kind of effect, just like controlled demolition. In fact, on that very night, Dan Rather-viewing the collapse of Building 7-blurted out, "It looked just like one of those controlled demolitions."

Further evidence of Building 7 being brought down by controlled demolition came from Larry Silverstein, the man who had recently taken a lease on the entire complex. In a PBS documentary from September 2002, Silverstein said he told the fire commander that the smartest thing to do was "pull it." Next, he says, they "made that decision to pull" and watched the building collapse. Pull is a term commonly used to describe using explosives to demolish a building. Silverstein allegedly made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7.

If the Twin Towers did come down by controlled demolition, wouldn't they have to be wired for the event well in advance of the attack?

They would have had to be wired, and then closer to the time [of the attack] the explosives would actually have to be placed. Several people who worked in the towers reported that there were times [shortly before the attack] when a certain part of one tower or the other was sectioned off for several days, and no one could go there except these special workers who were called "engineers." So it does appear that there could have been this kind of advance planning and that there would have been time to do this.

Also, because of terrorist alerts, they had been taking bomb-sniffing dogs through the buildings, checking for explosives. There is a report that the bomb-sniffing dogs were called off the weekend prior to 9/11.

Are there also inconsistencies involving the hijacked aircraft?

Let's start with Flight 77, which is credited with crashing into the Pentagon. There are many problems with the official story, which is that it took off from Washington, D.C., went west, then got hijacked, then turned around and came back. Somehow it flew through American airspace, toward the Pentagon for about 40 minutes, without being detected.

Our multitrillion-dollar defense system proved to be worthless. Even more striking, whatever hit the Pentagon hit the West Wing. These terrorists are supposedly so brilliant that they defeat this trillion-dollar system, and yet they didn't know that the West Wing was the worst part of the Pentagon to hit because all the top brass and Rumsfeld, whom you would presume they would want to kill, were in the East Wing.

Secondly, the West Wing was being renovated. It had been reinforced; so fire would not spread from the West Wing to the other parts, causing much less damage. Furthermore, very few regular workers were there because of the renovation. Most of the people killed were civilian workers, not Pentagon employees.

We were told that the façade of the West Wing was hit by this Boeing 757, which weighs 100 tons and was going 300 miles per hour. Yet the façade of the West Wing didn't collapse until a half hour later. Photographs taken by a Marine and an AP photographer show there was a relatively small hole in the façade. And we're supposed to believe the 757, with a 120-foot wingspan and 40-foot-high tail, went through there. The wreckage should be out on the yard, but the photographs show no Boeing visible.

Were aircraft parts ever found in the Pentagon wreckage?

There is clearly good evidence that plane parts were photographed in the Pentagon. But that they were parts from a Boeing 757 is highly and vigorously contested by many students of this event. What passes for the official story is that somehow this airplane hit the building, went into this tiny hole, which forced the wings back, and so they folded up and slipped inside the building.

The fire chief in charge of putting out the fire was asked if he saw any plane parts inside. He said no big pieces, no fuselage, no engine, nothing like that. So the people who try to defend this story respond by saying the fire was so hot it vaporized the plane. It not only melted the steel and the aluminum, but it vaporized them; and that's why they disappeared.

We've since learned that a lot of the bodies in the WTC were so destroyed that they were not able to identify them using any modern techniques. Yet this fire in the Pentagon that was hot enough to vaporize steel and aluminum left the bodies so they could be identified.

If the government did allow or enable the 9/11 attacks, what is the motivation?

The September 11 attacks are being used as the excuse for virtually everything the Bush/Cheney Administration is doing. Although Iraq had nothing to do with it-everybody agrees on that now- 9/11 was used as the basis for this war.

These guys had been champing at the bit to attack Iraq since 1992. In 1997 some of them formed The Project for the New American Century, a think tank that claims to promote American global leadership. This organization involved Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld and many others who became central members and ideologues of the Bush Administration. In 2000 the group produced a report titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses" that outlines transforming the military and points out that this will be very expensive.

Since the Cold War is over, the report said, we don't have that excuse to keep military spending up. Many were talking about cutbacks on defense, i.e. military spending. Americans won't be willing to pony up money for defense unless there's an event that makes them feel insecure and threatened by external forces. Therefore, according to the report, any transformation of military affairs will go rather slowly, "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event-like a new Pearl Harbor."

You've suggested that we will know what happened on 9/11 when those in power are arrested or forced to give sworn testimony. Who should that be?

Cumulative evidence would seem to suggest that it was people such as Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and General Richard Meyers who probably would have led the activities. Somebody had to give stand-down orders. Standard FAA operating procedures involve contacting the military if there's any sign a plane may have been hijacked, if a plane goes radically off course and they can't call it back, or if it loses radio contact or the transponder's turned off.

The FAA calls the military, which calls the nearest Air Force base, which sends out jet fighters. They typically scramble a couple of fighters; and they have a regular routine where they tell the pilots you've been intercepted, follow me. If they won't comply, then the military pilot requests permission to take more drastic action. None of that happened on September 11. Not a single plane was intercepted. Normally, this occurs within about 15 minutes after signs of problems. In the case of Flight 77, after almost 40 minutes, there's no jet fighter on the scene.

But it gets more problematic. In the first few days we got three different stories about why there were no interceptions. The first story Meyers and NORAD [North American Aerospace Defense Command] told was that we didn't send planes up until after the Pentagon was hit. In other words, an hour and a half went by before any planes were scrambled. That story created lots of questions, and so they immediately changed it. On September 18, NORAD came out and said we did send up fighters, but the FAA was slow in contacting us, and we tried to get there in time, but didn't make it.

Then researchers examined the timelines. Those jets can go from scramble order to 29,000 feet in 2.5 minutes and fly 1,850 miles an hour, which means they should have arrived in time, even if the FAA was late.

With the 9/11 Commission, we get a third story from the military, which is the FAA didn't notify us late; they didn't notify us at all. More precisely, they had only nine minutes notice with Flight 11, the first flight, and no notice about the other three flights until after they had crashed. Of course, this ignores the fact that the military has a radar system by their own account that is far superior to that of the FAA. But for now this is the official story.

Are there also inconsistencies regarding Flight 93, the airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania?

With the first three flights the question is, why weren't they intercepted or possibly shot down? With Flight 93 the question is, why does it seem the government shot this plane down after it appeared the passengers were about to wrest control of it? There was a certified pilot aboard as a passenger who would have been able to bring the plane down safely. You would have had live people, presumably live hijackers, to interrogate.

There's an enormous amount of evidence that Flight 93 was shot down. The government denied it. It's strange that they did, because they could have said, "This plane was heading toward the Pentagon or the White House, and we were protecting Washington, doing our job." For some reason they chose to deny that they had shot it down; and that became the official story. In the 9/11 Commission Report they do big-time damage control and remove the possibility that it could have been shot down by changing the timelines rather drastically.

Everybody knows and agrees that Cheney gave the shoot-down order. Prior to the 9/11 Commission Report, we were led to believe that permission was given at about 9:45. Many news reports suggest that the shoot-down order was given before 10 a.m. By his own testimony, Cheney was in charge, down in the underground bunker-the emergency operation center.

Norman Mineta, Secretary of Transportation, testified that when he got down to the underground bunker at about 9:20, Cheney was already there and had been there for some time. That supports the view that he got down there at least by 9:15. The 9/11 Commission ignores that evidence and says Cheney didn't get there until almost 10 a.m. and issued the order after 10:10 a.m. They conclude the military couldn't possibly have shot down Flight 93 because it went down at 10:03 or 10:06.

Standard operating procedures don't require a call from the President; the Pentagon chain of command can do it. So Rumsfeld, Meyers or a subordinate could have done it. In any case, they created the idea that only the President or the Vice President could order it. This is one of the biggest lies in the 9/11 Commission Report.

Do you think the truth will ever come out?

It is extremely difficult to get the truth to come out in America because the mainstream media are not only co-opted, but accomplices in these matters. This is understandable because we have a corporate-owned media.

Take NBC, for example, which is owned by General Electric, one of the major producers of military equipment in the world. It's very unlikely you're going to get some reporter on NBC to expose this stuff. Thus far we've seen nothing about this in any mainstream magazine, newspaper or television show in this country.

An international commission with prestigious people would be able to command attention-so much so that even the American press would be unable to ignore it.

Among the many Web sites devoted to this topic are 911Research.com, WTC7.net and 911Truth.org.

[HoRuS]

edit double post

[DSM4Life]

You guys are retarded

[zabster151]

DSM4Life you are not very smart. its amazing Horus all the proof and people cant see it. there is video proof of the walls blowing out seconds before the plane hits i mean really how much more do you need. along with all the other evidence that is just mind blowing. great job Horus your wright on target. watch this DSM4Life and enplane why that happened its a short video so you should be Ok. http://buildingwhat.org/ in fact if anyone can explane how building 7 fell i will give them a cookie. hahahaha this guy look so shady hahaha NIST bunch of liars check it out

[zabster151]

Agree.Im in australia and i beleive it was a controlled demo.

Even the plane hitting the pentagon was bullshit.Countless research, videos etc that a plane never hit the pentagon.No plane wreck, no plane parts, no luggage etc.

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

good job nobody has even talked about that one yet. so funny they dident even find plane parts they said it on the news . but it was still a plane. it blows my mind how dumb america is

[HoRuS]

You guys are retarded

I beg to differ. My WAIS3 test put me in the top 5% of the population. If I am retarded, then 95% of the population is even more retarded. Then again judging by some of the ignorant head in the sand comments here, maybe that would be correct.

[HoRuS]

DSM4Life you are not very smart. its amazing Horus all the proof and people cant see it. there is video proof of the walls blowing out seconds before the plane hits i mean really how much more do you need. along with all the other evidence that is just mind blowing. great job Horus your wright on target. watch this DSM4Life and enplane why that happened its a short video so you should be Ok. http://buildingwhat.org/ in fact if anyone can explane how building 7 fell i will give them a cookie. hahahaha this guy look so shady hahaha NIST bunch of liars check it out

The proof is all there. People just don't want to believe things that are beyond their comprehension. It's a scary thought that your own government would do such a thing and it suits many people to just ignore the proof so they can get on with their lives and sleep at night oblivious to what is really happening around them.

[zabster151]

yea i know, i am always trying to teach people when they talk about this subject. but they usually just get mad at what i am saying. instead of doing research to find the truth, Ignorance is bliss, until a building your in gets blown up.lol

[wanabeMASSIVE!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN1Fq090sBA&NR=1 in slow mo..

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

lol Horus just went off!

[Flagg]

While I am no mathematician, I have seen far too much information to think those buildings collapsed due to airplane fuel heating up and melting the supports.

It looks very much like a planned demolition. It's not an easy concept to swallow, I mean can you imagine if the Bush Administration were behind this or if someone blew the whistle.. the credibility of America would be tarnished forever.

Which is why no one will ever truly know what happened on that day.

As for the Mosque, well Mosques offend me everywhere. Build a gay nightclub right next door. Surely that wont offend anyone, will it?

[DSM4Life]

DSM4Life you are not very smart. its amazing Horus all the proof and people cant see it. there is video proof of the walls blowing out seconds before the plane hits i mean really how much more do you need. along with all the other evidence that is just mind blowing. great job Horus your wright on target. watch this DSM4Life and enplane why that happened its a short video so you should be Ok. http://buildingwhat.org/ in fact if anyone can explane how building 7 fell i will give them a cookie. hahahaha this guy look so shady hahaha NIST bunch of liars check it out

After watching your videos I changed my mind. Your very retarded.

[stevey_6t9]

After watching your videos I changed my mind. Your very retarded.

lol...

[zabster151]

wow, DSM4Life como'n you are smarter then this i know you are. and please will someone tell me how building 7 fell. remember no plane.

Horus, they just can't comprehend what happened

[BgMc31]

wow, DSM4Life como'n you are smarter then this i know you are. and please will someone tell me how building 7 fell. remember no plane.

Horus, they just can't comprehend what happened

Here's the answer to your question conspiracy guy...

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives...sanz-Nov07.pdf

For every conspiracy theory about 9/11 there is a theory to debunk it. No one will ever know which is true. But there are always those who seek these outrages conspiracies even when they don't exist just to justify their own paranoia.