Cyclling Test C at 400 or 500?

[pappybay]

I posted this in the new member section and someone suggested I bring it here.

I am 52 and have been on TRT since last July. I am at 180 mg per week, 2 at 90 per week and 500 Iu of HCG 2 times per week, 3 MG of anastrozole. I have put on 20 pounds since last July. I have read so much I think I know more than my docs most of the time. That knowledge is in large part to reading for an insane number of hours on forums like this one.

I am considering a "first" cycle of 400 mg per week or 500 mg a week for 12 weeks to hopefully pick up 15 pounds. I will probably start in August (I take off 3 weeks in July for vacation time).

I have historically lifted for many years and then took off about 8 years (life happens) have been very consistent since last July (2012) in a gym at my home (very nice gym). I typically do the following split

Chest,
Shoulders/triceps
Back/biceps
Off
Legs (quads)
Legs(hams and calves)
Off

I am 6' 3"

I started at 175 lbs and about 11% bodyfat. I am now at 195 lbs and I would guess 15% bodyfat. My fat is 100% isolated to my gut and love handles.
With respect to weight, I typically do 8-12 sets for major muscle groups and 4-6 for minor, lifting progressively starting in the 10-12 rep range and ending in the 5-8 for major muscle groups and 8-15 for minor muscle groups. For calves I am in the 25-30 rep range and for traps I am in the 12-15 range.

For example, when doing dumbbell flat bench I would do 65 each, 70 each, 75 each and end with 4-5 reps on 80 each. I try to add either weight or reps each workout to keep the progressive component in place.

I do no cardio as I am clearly ectomorph body style, 33 inch waist X 34 inch inseam (used to be 36) and 46 in shoulders (based on suit size) with skinny arms and bird legs.
With respect to nutrition, I am pretty informed. I eat three meals and snacks in between. I drink 3 ON shakes a day with 84 grams of whey isolate, 3 grams of Creatine, take fish oil, D-3, multivitamin and biotin (hair). I eat a LOT of chicken, broccoli, rice, steak, roast beef, turkey, fish (grilled), pork steak, squash (grilled), eggs, bacon, biscuits, potatoes (no butter). Most of my foods are grilled or baked. I do not drink or smoke. I average 4,000 calories per day. I am not a perfectly clean eater but I am more strict than most. No sweets for example, ice cream or heavy sugary foods. I do like bacon and good old sage-based sausage.

Sleep is typically 6 hours a night (I know, I know). I do not suffer from stress at all and I do have a high pressure job and a great sex life with my beautiful wife.
Recently I have been suffering from a sore left bicep (ortho says no tear, just take off and I did back off my weight for a month, still an issue but I do not want you to get hung up on the bicep issue.)

My E2 and E3 are low and I do get some severe joint pain about 2 days after my leg workouts (I do not go to 90 degrees on squats, about 75 degrees and about 70 degrees on leg extensions) Fish oil seems to help.

I want to reach 220 lbs at about 8 percent body fat and maintain.

I hope this is enough info for a good start. I really appreciate any feedback and guidance.

[Times Roman]

I tell everyone a standard test C cycle for newcomers to the life is 500mg/test c/week x 12 weeks.

[pappybay]

Thanks, I am going to start at 400 and see how it goes. Starting in August. IT will be interesting.

[kelkel]

Your joints are sore as your E2 is low due to an excessive amount of Adex being taken. Pappy that's a ridiculous dose and I'm shocked you haven't absolutely crushed your E2 level. Sore joints, loss of libido are just two of the signs of low E. Long term it's bad. Estrogen is important to our bodies. Consider how much you are taking and now consider that the average amount used for an avg Test cycle of 500mg per week is .25mg EOD. Do the math there. I know guys who take several grams of cyp per week and still don't need that much. Your body only has so much aromatase enzyme in it.

I'd be very curious to see you last BW if at all possible. At least some of the relevant numbers with ranges. Before you cycle I'd suggest getting dialed in with your E2 first and foremost. You'd then have a much better chance of making the right adjustments for when you cycle.

Putting on 15lbs is a realistic goal. Maintaining it is always the issue for people. Search up Marcus's Diary in the Lounge and read it from start to finish for some great, modern training methodologies that may help you along the way. When it comes to nutrition I'd try to lose a snack or two if possible and insert another small meal. But we understand how hard it often is. Life is busy!

Very good post pappy!

kel

[spin_doctor]

Pappy, I am in a similar situation as you with a few differences. I'm 42 and my BF% is 17-18%. Initially I was going to start my first cycle in about a week, but after reading advice on here i have decided to wait until august or maybe September to get my BF% down. I have not started my TRT yet either. I start on July 2nd. I may be perfectly happy with that, but not sure yet. Waiting will also give me a chance to get together the gear. I haven't really even began working on that yet. I will be going Test E or C when I do it and the info Kel gave makes sense. Please post how you feel after those adjustments.

[pappybay]

Your joints are sore as your E2 is low due to an excessive amount of Adex being taken. Pappy that's a ridiculous dose and I'm shocked you haven't absolutely crushed your E2 level. Sore joints, loss of libido are just two of the signs of low E. Long term it's bad. Estrogen is important to our bodies. Consider how much you are taking and now consider that the average amount used for an avg Test cycle of 500mg per week is .25mg EOD. Do the math there. I know guys who take several grams of cyp per week and still don't need that much. Your body only has so much aromatase enzyme in it.

I'd be very curious to see you last BW if at all possible. At least some of the relevant numbers with ranges. Before you cycle I'd suggest getting dialed in with your E2 first and foremost. You'd then have a much better chance of making the right adjustments for when you cycle.

Putting on 15lbs is a realistic goal. Maintaining it is always the issue for people. Search up Marcus's Diary in the Lounge and read it from start to finish for some great, modern training methodologies that may help you along the way. When it comes to nutrition I'd try to lose a snack or two if possible and insert another small meal. But we understand how hard it often is. Life is busy!

Very good post pappy!

kel

Last Labs: 5-1-2013

Test, Serum 951
Test, Free Direct 311.9 (yeah!!)
Estradiol 33
Estrogen, Total 113
These labs were during a phase when I had backed off the Anastrozole to 2 MG per week........

I was feeling VERY tired. Went bad up to 3 MGs and BAM!! Energy back and sex drive out the roof....again.

Oh yeah, RBC 4.91, perfect

Prior labs had E at 69 and E2 at < 15

[kelkel]

It does not appear to be a sensitive estrogen assay but regardless, I'm still trying to figure out why you need so much adex. Something seems amiss here. 3mg's per week? I know guys who do several grams per week and don't need that much. Gotta put more thought into this. Is it pharm grade adex and is your math correct?

[pappybay]

Sorry for the delay. It is script-based and my math is correct. I agree with you 100%. Does not make sense.

[pappybay]

I am getting labs done tomorrow. Let's wait and check out the new results.

[ForumMember]

I don't want to get flamed for posting my thoughts so early in my forum career however, with Test Cyp being slower acting then say E my suggestion would be to run 500 VS 400 at 2 pins per week. In reality, you are blasting VS running a reg cycle since you TRT already. Maybe hit it hard 500 the first 8 then taper to 400 last 4...

Just random thoughts, pay me no mind...


PS: I am prescribed Test Cyp so have experience with it. Drink plenty of water & eat clean...

[pappybay]

I don't want to get flamed for posting my thoughts so early in my forum career however, with Test Cyp being slower acting then say E my suggestion would be to run 500 VS 400 at 2 pins per week. In reality, you are blasting VS running a reg cycle since you TRT already. Maybe hit it hard 500 the first 8 then taper to 400 last 4...

Just random thoughts, pay me no mind...


PS: I am prescribed Test Cyp so have experience with it. Drink plenty of water & eat clean...

Thanks for the correction. I should have called it a blast and not a cycle.

[JohnnyVegas]

Thanks for the correction. I should have called it a blast and not a cycle.

Blast = cycle. Same thing. Nobody will be confused or give the wrong advice if you use the "wrong" word. The only difference is you don't do PCT.

[pappybay]

JV, have you used Clen or Albuterol on a blast? What other things should I be considering? I want this to go safely and successfully.

Thanks.

[JohnnyVegas]

JV, have you used Clen or Albuterol on a blast? What other things should I be considering? I want this to go safely and successfully.

Thanks.

Everyone is different and you will learn what works for you. For example, my blood pressure goes up some even when my E2 is under control. Because of that I stay away from Clen.

Keep it simple. 500mg test only. Use an AI. Plan out a diet for your goal and stick to it.

When you keep it simple you know what to adjust when you have a complication and you learn how your body reacts to one thing at a time.

[pappybay]

Everyone is different and you will learn what works for you. For example, my blood pressure goes up some even when my E2 is under control. Because of that I stay away from Clen .

Keep it simple. 500mg test only. Use an AI. Plan out a diet for your goal and stick to it.

When you keep it simple you know what to adjust when you have a complication and you learn how your body reacts to one thing at a time.

Solid advice. I appreciate it very much. I am going to do just that, keep it simple.

[crazy mike]

Wow man, I'm interested in your Estradiol test levels. I brought my E2 down to an unacceptable level, I didn't have the BW to verify at the Time, but I know it was crashed. I was sick as a dog so to speak with all the symptoms that we know. I stop the Ai for a short and I got better quick. My concentrate was too strong and I wasn't getting it measured correctly so I have made a mistake and gone up and down. Not good we know and I was asking a knowledgeable member and following his advice but I was screwing up. Pont is you've got to get the measurement right on and keep close to BW very often. For me the E2 sensitive.
My advice listen here, and I would listen close to Kel and do what he says and value his thinking. Just my experience man. Hands on. ...crazy mike

[pappybay]

Wow man, I'm interested in your Estradiol test levels. I brought my E2 down to an unacceptable level, I didn't have the BW to verify at the Time, but I know it was crashed. I was sick as a dog so to speak with all the symptoms that we know. I stop the Ai for a short and I got better quick. My concentrate was too strong and I wasn't getting it measured correctly so I have made a mistake and gone up and down. Not good we know and I was asking a knowledgeable member and following his advice but I was screwing up. Pont is you've got to get the measurement right on and keep close to BW very often. For me the E2 sensitive.
My advice listen here, and I would listen close to Kel and do what he says and value his thinking. Just my experience man. Hands on. ...crazy mike

I will post the results. I have started (after my labs were pulled last Monday) reducing the anastrozole but in a different way. I have dropped to .25 on the two ways following the day of injection versus taking .5 mg on the day of injection and the following day. So far NO gyno sypmtoms....

[pappybay]

New labs in:

Lab results from 2-13-2013
Estrogen 69
Estradiol <15
DHEA Sulfate 72
LH < .2
FSH <.7
Test, Total 766
Test, Free 265.8

The 5-1 labs are on a Wednesday, same regimen as above with the addition of two HCG 500 IU injections twice per week one day after the Test cypo injection.
Lab results from 05-1-2013
Estrogen 113
Estradiol 33
DHEA Sulfate 61
LH < .2
FSH <.7
Test, Total 951
Test, Free 311.9

7- 1 I waited four days after injection before drawings labs to see if my numbers would drop, and they did:
Estrogen < 50
Estradiol (Ultra Sensitive as per a recommendation on this forum) 7
DHEA Sulfate -- missing
LH -- missing
FSH -- missing
Test, Total 747
Test, Free 210
Test, Bioavailable - 431.3
RBC - 5.1 (range of 4.4-5.8)
PSA -- 0.5

I am not happy with these numbers even at 4 days post injection ( I expected higher test). At least I pounded the high Estrogen and E2 back into a hole. The lab company did not provide the same results as in the past this time?? Go figure. I did add Bio available Test which is nice (includes test bound by Albumin, an easily broken bond). My Free test is way down but I can tell you I am obviously running higher levels at 180 MG per week as my strength is very good and improving and sex drive is VERY (too???) good.

Gotta love that PSA!