nsaids, cartilege repair and arthritis

**bartman314** · 10-27-2013, 04:36 PM

(posted in parallel in injuries and rehab - i'm trying to tap into two different audiences - the youthful and injured and the older, wiser, and arthritic?!?)

I came across some potentially concerning information and don't know quite how to view it. There's literature out there indicating nsaids will exacerbate arthritis and inhibit cartilage repair (see for example, http://journalofprolotherapy.caringm..._10_nsaids.pdf).

This came as a bit of a shock to me as I have disclosed my usage of 1600-2400 mg ibuprofen/day to treat joint inflammation/pain to both my primary care physician and various specialists I've worked with on my various joint issues. In these discussions, i had been informed about the risks of stomach bleeding and advised not to go over 2400 mg/day to avoid, but the risk to cartilage and arthritis had not been mentioned.

I appreciate any thoughts anyone has on this issue. Perhaps the simplest questions are:

Will 1600-2400 mg ibuprofin/day meaningfully/signficantly increase loss of cartilage or arthritis progression (for my severe traumatic arthritis)?

Will a lower amount or different nsaid provide a better risk/reward profile for managing joint inflammation/pain?

Are there alternative treatments I should consider for managing joint inflammation/pain?

**John Andrew** · 11-16-2013, 01:03 AM

Mate, I am not qualified except I can tell you my own experience. I have had spinal fractures, leg fractures, herniated discs and the hospital spent 45 minutes trying to insert an needle for spinal block as i had my 2nd leg operation. Shoulders have also had a great deal of pain at different times.

I cruise and blast and as long as I use Deca I have no joint pain at all! Generally I use 500 mgs / week. I run Test C at the same dosage. When I am able I include Tren E which I love. I can only get Bromocriptine for the prolactin. I use Hcg on cycle, have aramosin, have never needed it and run Nolvadex in PCT.

I think Deca has some wonderful ability to reduce joint pain and injuries. I am now training for world masters at age 60 so I do not want pain or Injury! I still train heavy! Warm up well.

Good luck, Regards John

**optionsdude** · 12-26-2013, 02:47 AM

Bartman314 Thanks for posting this article. I haven't been on the forum much the last few months, and I'm starting to come to the realization that I should come to terms with my denial, and start hanging out more in the over 40 section. I was trying to make it to 50, but I'm pretty close now. I'm gonna print this out and highlight the appropriate sections and show it to my ortho,I have some appt's coming up later this month. I've been on and off naproxen many times for the last 10 years. When I was taking twice a day everyday I ended up with some stomach issues. My last endoscope was good and prior ulcers had healed up. I've had a few knee operations and some metal in my neck, but both have been bothering me again lately so I started back on naproxen 500mg but only once per day and only on work days. Just reading this makes my knee hurt. I have to admit I'm not crazy about the source. On another note I also like John Andrews comments on deca . I run once a year and my knees usually do feel good while on it.

**Anonona** · 12-26-2013, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by optionsdude

Bartman314 Thanks for posting this article. I haven't been on the forum much the last few months, and I'm starting to come to the realization that I should come to terms with my denial, and start hanging out more in the over 40 section. I was trying to make it to 50, but I'm pretty close now. I'm gonna print this out and highlight the appropriate sections and show it to my ortho,I have some appt's coming up later this month. I've been on and off naproxen many times for the last 10 years. When I was taking twice a day everyday I ended up with some stomach issues. My last endoscope was good and prior ulcers had healed up. I've had a few knee operations and some metal in my neck, but both have been bothering me again lately so I started back on naproxen 500mg but only once per day and only on work days. Just reading this makes my knee hurt. I have to admit I'm not crazy about the source. On another note I also like John Andrews comments on deca. I run once a year and my knees usually do feel good while on it.

Times Roman, Myself and a few others have been using Thymosin Beta 4 with good results. TR is 51, I use it for inflammation and healing. Might be of interest to you.

**bartman314** · 12-26-2013, 02:06 PM

in digging a little more, i learned from an ortho surgeon friend of mine that the quality of this particular article was relatively low, and is not viewed as valid by the medical community. she indicated i should not be concerned about my use of ibuprofin at up tp 2400 mg/day (provided my stomach could take it). that being said, thanks for the inputs on deca and tb500.

**optionsdude** · 12-26-2013, 03:11 PM

I'm not crazy about TB but I do take 5 grams of MSM as recommended by Times Roman and it definitely helps my bad knee. Doesn't do anything for my neck but def helps my knee.

**David LoPan** · 12-26-2013, 10:13 PM

2400 mg ibuprofin/day is the most you can take in a day without hurting your liver, kidneys and the other things your mentioned or so the PI says. I personally stay away from it completely unless I have to alternate it with Tylenol for being sick, which I never am. From what I have read, IMO, when you work out IBP can be counter productive. One is trying to break down muscle fiber and increase inflation and the IBP works to prevent that from occurring.

Tylenol is the best I think but NEVER go over 3000 mg a day. There are a lot of studies that say that 4000 is max but that amount it going to be lowered soon by the joint commission. I would talk to your doctor about other methods to help with RA (infusion therapy), if you have that. If you are like me and just getting older, I use Tylenol, ice and biofreeze. Every now and then I will take a Norco (lortab) but I have had an RX for about 9 months with 30 pills and I still have a lot left.

**Times Roman** · 12-27-2013, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by optionsdude

I'm not crazy about TB but I do take 5 grams of MSM as recommended by Times Roman and it definitely helps my bad knee. Doesn't do anything for my neck but def helps my knee.

doesn't do anything for my neck either. old army injury. flares up once or twice a year. i've found the only thing that helps with that is five to ten mg of morphine orally. oxycodone nor vicoden helps with my neck.

suggest trying the msm though. $33 will get you about a fifteen month supply at five mg/day. contact me or one of the others for more info. i've actually started a thread as well, search if interested. it's slow acting, so expect at least a month or so before you begin to notice the effects.

Originally Posted by Anonona

Times Roman, Myself and a few others have been using Thymosin Beta 4 with good results. TR is 51, I use it for inflammation and healing. Might be of interest to you.

click the link in my signature to read all about it. definately some good stuff.

**yannick35** · 01-13-2014, 06:32 PM

I am a very strong believer in prolotherapy using either PRP or whole blood because it uses your blood. A good blood builder a great diet to have strong blood withdrawn and then reinjected in the injured area is the best.

I loved tren ace amazing when i was on it recuperation and all, test and deca make me retain too much water and i look fat even with an AI

**yannick35** · 01-13-2014, 06:36 PM

that article you got from caring medical is where prolo is done best, and its very true what they say yet idiot doctor continue to give cortisone shots everytime.

I got prolo on my Y ligament and they saw the results with an utlrasound no more clicking in the hip, i got a labral tear and they wanted to inject cortisone in there i gave them the finger and got PRP and whole blood instead, my labrum is almost fixed insteand of all eaten up if i would have listen to theses incompetent doctors once more.

Chiros are the worst