saw palmetto..........

[johnsomebody]

Here's an interesting point-counterpoint discussion at Steroidology...
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/sh...o&pagenumber=1

The best stuff is on page two where someone actually quotes from real studies rather than just expressing opinion without backing it up (which happens all the time-makes me crazy).

" In vivo studies have shown that saw palmetto decreases dihydrotestosterone levels and raises testosterone levels ,82 has antiestrogenic activity,83 and increases apoptosis and reduces cell proliferation84 in prostatic tissue from patients with benign prostatic hyperplasia..."

I still don't know if it interferes with binding at the androgen receptors, durnit.

[iron4life79]

js,
i'm still on the s.p. and its still seems to be helping immensely.
i'm on the same dosage(1800mg ed). as for inhibiting gains, i just dont see it. but ive said this a million times.....we're all different, and some will react differently to this stuff i'm sure.
i have 4 weeks left on my cycle, and i will more than likely continue the s.p. through my pct. then i'll come off, and we'll see what happens next.

a few real good posts have been added to this thread. if anyone has anything else to add, feel free to do so.

peace I4L

[ichabodcrane]

It is good to see you guys sorting through the literature and trying to evaluate it professionally. This is often the hardest part about literature reviews. JS posted an excellent monograph on SP. I read the study where SP reportedly decreased T binding. I think there are a few things to keep in mind when reading this. The most important is that the study which shows a decrease in T binding is done in vitro, or basically in an artificial environment outside the living organism. IN VITRO studies are isolated and controlled, and it is often very difficult to apply the results to those that would happen inside the human body or in vivo. IN VITRO studies like this do not account for the multiple feedback mechanisms, or cascading events that happen when we have an intact system such as that inside our bodies. They are however, a good starting point. Also, the study reported these in vitro tests were done in specific tissues (abdominal skin wall, myometrium, prepuce and vaginal skin). There is no mention of muscle tissue etc. So while this sounds very disturbing, it may or may not be the actual case. This brings us to next important part of this ordeal (IMO). This is the studies that were done in vivo human. Now we may be getting a better picture of what might really be happening. Here it is stated that SP showed a statistically significant decrease in DHT and an INCREASE in T. Important to note though, is that this is also in the prostate region, and there is no mention of other tissues such as muscle etc. Also, importatnly is the mention of no increase in plasma levels of T, LH and FSH. So from these studies we might conclude that SP does not negatively effect hormonal balance. I can't say that SP does not effect T negatively, but I still haven't read any convincing studies. You already pointed this out JS, I just think you got caught up in the shuffle. Excellent reporting I might add amigo. Of course more studies need to be done to provide a definative answer, but I think we are getting there. And as I4L stated, everybody is different. So what is so for one person, may not be for the next. JS, I think if you want to go off the SP for these remaining weeks, you should try it. This will at least give you some peace of mind. It isn't going to hurt you to not take the SP. Proskier's article also brought some good arguments about DHT and libido. We know we need precise amounts of T, DHT, and E (among other hormones) for a funcitonal libido. It doesen't surprise me that someone might report a decrease in libido while taking SP. Anytime you take a drug/supplement that interferes with hormonal balance to any extent, you run the risk of ill reported side effects in regards to libido. Even people who use T alone will report a decrease in libido. As for why teenagers don't seem to be afflicted by the nasty sides of fluctuating hormones such as T and subsequently DHT (balding and prostate enlargement): We must look at the overall hormonal balance and enzymatic conversion processes involved. It is not the serum levels of DHT that matter, but the local conversion of T to DHT in the prostate and scalp that matter. So it is the local excess of DHT that is the problem. Susceptible individuals seem to have more of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme which converts T to DHT. It is interesting to note that teenagers and young men, with their high T levels, tend to have very full heads of hair, but not so much facial and/or body hair. On the other hand it is not too uncommon to see massive body/facial hair on a person who may be severely balding. We must look at the relative balance of all hormones and not just T or DHT. Estrogens, for example, promote the growth of scalp hair while they inhibit the growth of hair in other places of the body. DHT seems to promote the growth of body/facial hair, but appears to inhibit the growth of scalp hair. We know that natural T levels begin to decline somewhere around mid-to late twenties. Is this not where we also begin to notice balding in those who are susceptible? As we age, our bodies may produce more DHT as a compensation for lowering serum androgens. Again, it seems that serum DHT is quite different from peripheral DHT, and the two may be inversely related. Another factor could be that the older male has had more "time" so to speak, being exposed to DHT and could therefore be more affected by its actions. There are so many factors involved in prostate enlargement and balding. It is unfair to say it is only due to increased DHT. We must look at ALL hormones, and consider their what happens to their balance as we age in order to gain insight into these problems which inflict us all. Sorry to ramble on. You guys have started a very interesting post with both excellent scientific reference as well as real life experience. I hope this one stays alive for a long time. Good luck to both JS and I4L. Keep us posted on any new findings.

[Swellin]

Most of what IC posted had occurred to me, but some of it was imensely insightful......

It is interesting to note that teenagers and young men, with their high T levels, tend to have very full heads of hair, but not so much facial and/or body hair. On the other hand it is not too uncommon to see massive body/facial hair on a person who may be severely balding. We must look at the relative balance of all hormones and not just T or DHT.

Little snipits like this really make the difference.

Pretty interesting.

[johnsomebody]

Wow, thanks for the input Icahbod!!!

Seems like the possibility still exists based on that in vitro study that while SP lowers DHT and increases test levels it may also bind to androgen receptors overall other than just the prostate? Or am I missing something?

As for me I laid off the stuff for a few days but I'm so paranoid about my prostate it felt like the thing was crying out in pain from a DHT attack so I resumed taking it. Aaaahh, relief.

[johnsomebody]

Even people who use T alone will report a decrease in libido.

This is a real interesting fact that a lot of people at AR don't know. It seems to be the case with me as well.

[hybrid]

Great discussion on this topic. I've learned alot. Thanks. One thing that I was told by a doc once sticks in my mind. He said that every male, if they live long enough will develop prostate cancer. Kind of all-inclusive, I know. But the point that I got from it was to be careful when it comes to protecting the prostate. I would rather sacrifice some gains rather than sacrifice the health of the prostate.

[johnsomebody]

Good point!! I've heard the same thing.

[iron4life79]

this is the way i like to see things addressed in this particular forum.

i know way more about s.p. now than i ever thought i would need or want to. while questions still arise as to efficacy, etc, i like the way this was discussed, and most questions at least somewhat answered.
all of you are to be commended for the time and effort you put into this thread, and i appreciate all youve done, for me and others who read it.

btw- ich, i havent forgotten you brother. be patient, ok?

peace I4L

[ichabodcrane]

JS, I think while the possibility does exist, it still reamins to be proven. I still feel the in-vivo test to be of more importance. The fact there was no change in plasma hormonal levels for the in-vivo tests does deserve some credibility. From what most people seem to be stating, they are not noticing a hinderance on gains. So even if SP does bind the AR receptor, it does not seem to be very significant. But we still need more tests to realize the full extent of this ordeal.

I notice a huge difference in the quality of posts/replies compared to the general AAS forum. Does maturity mean anything
Anyways, thanks for everything guys, and the best of luck to all, IC

[johnsomebody]

I notice a huge difference in the quality of posts/replies compared to the general AAS forum. Does maturity mean anything

Yup, this is where the grownups hang out.

[Dowstrategy]

I visited my uroligist today. Anyone have a clue how to get ky stains off a shirt tail LOL. Anyway I asked him about SP and he said there is good evidence that Saw Palmetto is effective in helping with prostate swelling. The evidence is anctedotal and his experience was that about 40% of the people had some improvement. As to brands he said to look for the words standardized on the label and avoid any that was whole plant chopped up and look for extract. He recommended 450 to 900 a day

[johnsomebody]

Great info! Thanks bro.

[over40mule]

I began using 1000mg of saw palmetto a year ago (consistantly). Prior to incorporating saw palmetto, I also had mild incontinence. Some claim saw palmetto diminishes HRT results but I have to totally disagree.

41 yrs young and on gear

PSA 2003 = 2.21
PSA June 2004 = 1.5 (1 yr of saw palmetto) this was taken during a high androgen cycle but no aromatizing compounds like testosterone were used. Just (Deca , winstrol , Halotestin ) .

[johnsomebody]

That's excellent info -especially posting your PSA numbers declining. Thanks for posting!

[SLOW AND EASY]

Have you looked into Beta-Sitosterol I understand it is a lot better than SP for BHP.
Do a google search and check it out. It is made from the berries of the SP.

Peace

[JinNtonic]

Funny I have felt a little bit less libido and I have been taking SP for 5 weeks. I bet its that thats doing it...

[lovbyts]

Dude.... Do you really think it was necessary to respond to a thread that is 6 years old????

[clemont51]

I'm taking 3600mg of Spring Valley SP daily. Tried the script drugs, dustesteride (?) caused my breasts to grow, the other
one dropped blood pressure and caused a fainting episode. Still only get up once during the night. PSA normal. Test C at
75mg weekly. I'm 75 and maintaining test level of 850.