anthony roberts PCT

[BITTAPART2]

i have read on anthony roberts blog about his PCT regime. It looks really really good and I think he is a very knowlegable guy. In his protocol he recomends runing HCG ,nolva and aromasin together after cycle, the theory being that the estrogen brought on after cycle ,and after administering HCG, will be held at bay. Hoping he will respond to this thread but assuming he is too busy does anyone think proviron could be used in place of aromasin for halting estrogen??? I know it doesnt act the same but it should prevent estrogen totally right?

[MrMe]

This is a question that I tried to find an answer to but didnt. From what i gather aromasin is a type I (suicide inhibitor) and lowers estrogen more then proivon i beleive. Proviron binds to the androgen receptor but also binds to the SHBG, letting more test float around.

I think Swale does this kind of PCT, HCG with proviron and nolva, maybe check his out.

[BITTAPART2]

proviron doesnt "lower" estrogen per se it stops it from forming at all so IMO it should be just as good if not better than aromasin but again I am not going to argue with his PCT either I would just like to know what peoples opinion on this woul be.

[MrMe]

Personaly myself i would think they are very similar and should work the same. If Anthony and Swale use one of them with HCG with results, id give it a shot

[The_Canibal]

proviron (DHT 1-methylated) should do the trick....in lowering estrogens..don't know for sure if itz best to use it during PCT

god luck

[BITTAPART2]

the risk I worry about is of the estrogen not being held at bay enough therby the HCG will be suppresive. I have run proviron alongside clomid and nolva b4 for pct usually for libido but HCG post cycle I havent done. The proviron wouldnt be a problem post cycle because it has been proven to not be suppresive at doses as high as 150mg ED. I woul probably only run 75-100mg ED

[The_Canibal]

the HCG is supresive because it mimicks the action of LH....i'm using it throughout the entire cycle...and I assume that the pituitary can recover faster than the testicles...from the feedback i got from other people, it seems to be working fine

good luck

[Titan1]

Im on HRT ,pregnyl 1500ius 3x week and my doc said that the body recovers faster from hcg then test and it works great for me.
Proviron is an androgen andd i havent seen any evidence of proviron working as an anti estrogen remember there are alot of theories on the net but little proof,its a big difference between what works "on paper" and in real life,the only positive effect i can see from proviron is that it binds to shbg and i think that 50mg is an enough dose and its not suppressive because in studies patients were given 150mg and it didnt shut them down here look:

Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive

Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA

This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone , estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.



Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids , thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.




There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in t3 and increases in t3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.



In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.


Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

[sami05]

looks like I'm following the yellow brick. I know that what's commonly recommednded is clomid and nolva together but not with proviron . You could be right it is the preferable regiments to suppress estrogen entirely in your blood system but I haven't read anything of that nature. Would u mind to enlink Robert' blog site in this thread so we may also complement on his analysis, strategy and experience. thankx

the risk I worry about is of the estrogen not being held at bay enough therby the HCG will be suppresive. I have run proviron alongside clomid and nolva b4 for pct usually for libido but HCG post cycle I havent done. The proviron wouldnt be a problem post cycle because it has been proven to not be suppresive at doses as high as 150mg ED. I woul probably only run 75-100mg ED

[BITTAPART2]

try this www.anthony-roberts.com

[Columbus]

He also reccomends dbol at 10mg during pct, doesn't he??

[BITTAPART2]

not in this protocol on his blog, but a dbol brige @ 10mg in the AM is also a highly debated topic as well. I woulnt do it personally diet,training an proper supplements will keep the muscle on me if i do it right PCT my concern is getting back to normal w/ my HTPA.

[Columbus]

He doesn't say its a BRIDGE...he says its part of the recovery process......very interesting but I am still torn.

[BITTAPART2]

OMG dude it is called a dbol bridge at 10mg during PCT

[BITTAPART2]

the theory is that it will be taken in the AM when your natty levels are highest then this small incrimint of dbol should boost you just a little bit more but not enought to suppress your HTPA...again ask anyone and they call that a bridge

[Columbus]

But You Recover, Correct?

[BITTAPART2]

i wouldnt bet on it personally, why take the risk...dbol is suppressive in nature so IMO the dose of suppression could vary from subject to subject not worth it if recovery is your primary objective. if it did help w/ recovery than everyone would do it for PCT, it is theory at best. BTW HIJACK!! werent we talking about proviron and its anti-estrogen properties taking the place of aromasin in HCG PCT

[The_Canibal]

d-bol for pct??? i wouldn't do that in a million years

[Columbus]

I thought the same thing....research it!

[veryveryquiet]

Would it be possible to replace the aromasin with letro.
I know that Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of the letro, but couldn't you up the letro dose a bit?

[MrMe]

I wouldnt try it, the two chems fight, why try to make it work when there is other products that work for the application. I wouldnt want to risk estrogen rebound or losing my gains.

[veryveryquiet]

I wouldnt try it, the two chems fight, why try to make it work when there is other products that work for the application. I wouldnt want to risk estrogen rebound or losing my gains.

Why try, Money! Completely out just trying to get by with whats on hand.
I guess I can go pick up aluminum cans on the side of the road for my cardio, and cash in to upgrade to the aromasin . LOL

[BITTAPART2]

I thought the same thing....research it!

dude, show us your clinical studies you have found backing up your THEORY of this dbol bridge being a good idea......listen your on or your off bro you are not nearly far enough along in your BBing to try this, IMO , assanying endevour. I am really intrested in what "research" you have to back up your THEORY.. read some of these threads from expierienced members on this board, notice the newbies who think it may be a good idea and then notice the responses by the vets and other expierienced knowlegable bros.
Dbol during pct??

[Columbus]

The body is an incredible thing. Well, mine is anyway.

Think about what you're claiming: that a body can't recover while on AAS. Almost every male on the planet is on AAS at a daily dose of 5-7 mg, give or take, much of it secreted overnight while sleeping. Dbol has a half life of around 4.5 hours. After 18 hours it's undergone 4 half-lives and that's from what's left and survives liver breakdown.

If we assume that 10mg Dbol results in approx. 7mg of test then 7->3.5->1.75->0.875->0.4375. After four half-lives there is less than half a milligram still circulating.

Add to this that nobody is suggesting a Dbol-alone PCT. You'd still be running your SERM and AI. What leads you to consider that this would likely result in disaster?

[Columbus]

from another board



Here is my last PCT with a dbol bridge...

Last 10 days of cycle 1000iu's of HCG ED....
Starting 2-4 days after short acting esters and 7-10 days after long acting esters I used...
aromasin @ 20mg ED and 20mg Novaldex ED for about 6 weeks
During the time running Aromasin and Novadex, I ran 10mg Dbol every morning...

I kept almost all my weight and my strength didnt go down very much at all...

I am not a monster but I am a thick lean dude.. 6'1 225-230lbs under 10% BF...

I recovered completely with the PCT and the dbol spike...

Although once I dropped the dbol I got a little sloppier and put on a little fat or I lose a little muscle.. With my frame and weight, I cannot hold my weight naturally.. But the dbol bridge helped me maintain it for the 8 weeks i was on it.. I have ran this twice.. I love it and I will continue to run it until I start HRT... I can help with most PCT including dbol questions because I have asked Ulter then a thousand times and can vouch for their effectiveness

[Columbus]

from another board



Here is my last PCT with a dbol bridge...

Last 10 days of cycle 1000iu's of HCG ED....
Starting 2-4 days after short acting esters and 7-10 days after long acting esters I used...
aromasin @ 20mg ED and 20mg Novaldex ED for about 6 weeks
During the time running Aromasin and Novadex, I ran 10mg Dbol every morning...

I kept almost all my weight and my strength didnt go down very much at all...

I am not a monster but I am a thick lean dude.. 6'1 225-230lbs under 10% BF...

I recovered completely with the PCT and the dbol spike...

Although once I dropped the dbol I got a little sloppier and put on a little fat or I lose a little muscle.. With my frame and weight, I cannot hold my weight naturally.. But the dbol bridge helped me maintain it for the 8 weeks i was on it.. I have ran this twice.. I love it and I will continue to run it until I start HRT... I can help with most PCT including dbol questions because I have asked Ulter then a thousand times and can vouch for their effectiveness

[BITTAPART2]

not really what i asked for bro, i can give you 2000 people who have done it and claimed it was successful I want to see a actuall clincal study proving this will aid in recovery. point blank there is no way that dbol can help you recover faster than a regular pct that blocks estrogen and helps restore your LH secretion and recogition by the lydeg cells. there is no doubt dbol can help you keep gains but not HELP restore your HTPA. unless you can show me a clinical study I along with most people will still disagree

[The_Canibal]

only 5 mg of d-bol is roughly the equivalent of the natural test secreted by the body...

[Columbus]

only 5 mg of d-bol is roughly the equivalent of the natural test secreted by the body...

[Hard Head]

not really what i asked for bro, i can give you 2000 people who have done it and claimed it was successful I want to see a actuall clincal study proving this will aid in recovery. point blank there is no way that dbol can help you recover faster than a regular pct that blocks estrogen and helps restore your LH secretion and recogition by the lydeg cells. there is no doubt dbol can help you keep gains but not HELP restore your HTPA. unless you can show me a clinical study I along with most people will still disagree

Yeah, in this protocol, I don't believe the dbol is there to help you recover but to help you keep a higher than normal T level until the next cycle. Prolly why it's called a bridge and not a straight PCT?

I use the aforementioned PCT protocol with Aromasin , and it does work, well. I can not comment on the Proviron .

[BITTAPART2]

conclusive study showing dbol aiding in HTPA recovery please??????

[The_Canibal]

conclusive study showing dbol aiding in HTPA recovery please??????

c'mon man....this is basic knowledge...open any book(medical) and it will confirm that d-bol is supresive.....

[BITTAPART2]

exactly my point, it is suppresive and isnt a good idea if restoring HTPA is your concern