Nolvadex is toxic 2 eyes & liver, & causes BPH...

[Two4the$$]

I'm reposting someone elses work ... but, serious consideration needs to be circulated and discussed about this. These are compounds of WIDE spread use, and have been assumed completely benign and beneficial. Clearly, further research is needed.


Clomid & Nolva; A closer look
The use of Clomid and Nolvadex, as Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs), has gradually become well established in the steroid using community. The popular push of these drugs has almost made them mandatory. They have essentially become hormonal vitamins – vitamins that can do no wrong and provide seemingly endless benefits of testosterone support, bloat reduction, gynecomastia prevention and cholesterol health. It seems that we are all well educated about the benefits of Clomid and Nolvadex, so in this segment, I will present the risks and consequences from the short and long term use of Clomid and Nolvadex.

Upon examination of the research available for Clomid (clomiphene) and Nolvadex (tamoxifen) we find that the research is quite extensive, and contradicting.21 We see many early studies with tamoxifen done on breast cancer patients, which show an acceptable "safety profile", with an apparent lack of adverse effects.22 On the other hand, many of the early in vivo animal studies showed severely toxic effects, with the development of cancer in the liver, uterus, or testes upon tamoxifen administration.30-34,41 However, this evidence was largely disregarded by ex vivo (test tube) research on human cell-lines which appeared to show a lack of toxic effects.21

For example, tamoxifen was generally accepted as being non-toxic to human liver upon the conclusion that tamoxifen did not cause noticeable DNA adducts (damage) during short-term ex vivo studies with human liver cells.35,36 This was in contrast to the in vivo animal studies showing dramatic carcinogenic effects on the liver.30-34,41 As scientists learned that the toxic effects from tamoxifen are from the metabolism and buildup of the a-hydroxytamoxifen, 4-hydroxytamoxifen and N-desmethyltamoxifen metabolites. It became apparent that ex vivo research was largely flawed due to low-rate metabolism.21 The carcinogenic effects of tamoxifen proved to be even more unusual and elusive, when it was hypothesized that tamoxifen had both genomic and non-genomic toxicity, which affecting different animals, in different organs.21 This created an obvious clinical challenge for measuring genotoxicity in a test tube. Eventually, it was established that tamoxifen was a bona-fide carcinogen in all species, at least in one way or another.21,37-39 Recent human studies have shown tamoxifen treated women to have 3x the risk of developing fatty liver disease, which appeared as soon as 3 months into therapy at only 20mg/day.24-26 In some cases, the disease lasted up to 3 years, despite cessation from tamoxifen therapy. Five and ten year follow-ups with patients on long term tamoxifen therapy showed cases of deadly hepatocellular carcinoma.27-29 In a 2000 case study involving tamoxifen induced liver disease, D.F Moffat et al made a profound statement –

"In addition, hepatocellular carcinoma in tamoxifen treated patients may be under-reported since there may be reluctance to biopsy liver tumours which are assumed to be secondary carcinoma of the breast."

In other words, it appears that the liver carcinoma from a large number of breast cancer patients on tamoxifen therapy has been misdiagnosed as a metastasis infection from the breast cancer itself.28 Upon closer examination it was found that the cancerous lesions in the livers of the long-term tamoxifen therapy case studies were identical to those seen in the early animal studies showing tamoxifen to be a potent hepatotoxin.28-34 Although the effects took much longer to manifest, it became obvious that tamoxifen was toxic to the human liver.

Another well known risk of tamoxifen therapy is the increased risk of developing endometrial cancer (uterine cancer).23,42 This is due to tamoxifen actually acting as an estrogen agonist in the uterus, presumable from the 4-hydroxytamoxifen metabolite.33,40 This estrogenic metabolite triggers abnormal growth of the uterus and the formation of cancer causing DNA adducts.33 As male bodybuilders we assume this presents no risk. On the contrary, the implications are quite scary when we realize the male equivalent to the uterus is the prostate -- differentiating from the same embryonic cell line and sharing the same oncogene, Bcl-2, and high concentration of the estrogen receptor. It is likely that tamoxifen has the same estrogenic action, and DNA damaging effects within the prostate.60-62 It is no wonder that tamoxifen failed as a treatment for prostate carcinoma.43

Aside from restoring testosterone levels post cycle, tamoxifen is often used to combat gyno during cycle when "flare ups" occur. While tamoxifen may provide immediate inhibition of growth, and serve as valuable tool, it also has the ability to up-regulate the progesterone receptor.54-56 This is a true contradiction, which dramatically increases your chances of bringing upon gyno in future cycles when utilizing Nandrolone (Deca ) or Trenbolone, both of which act upon the progesterone receptor. It is interesting to speculate: is tamoxifen use directly related to the increased gyno occurrences seen with modern day steroid users?

When we bring our attention to Clomid, we find less research is available on long term human toxicity, probably because of the relatively short term (3-4 week) clinical application for ovarian stimulation,59 although long term follow ups with patients who received Clomid for ovulation induction have shown an increased risk of developing uterine cancer.74 This is to be expected, since many of the same carcinogenic tendencies found with tamoxifen are the same effects seen with clomiphene.44,45,57,58 Upon analysis of anecdotal reports from Clomid and nolva users, we see the typical short term side effects of low libido, erectile dysfunction, and emotional instability – despite many men showing normalized testosterone and estrogen levels during the use of these SERM’s. Research on male breast cancer patients also shows frequent reports of low libido, thrombosis (arterial blockage), and hot flashes with tamoxifen use.47 Another common side effect associated with both SERMs, but more common with Clomid, is the loss of visual accuracy and development of visual "tracers", due to the ocular toxicity.46

As the medical community became more aware of the side-effects associated with clomiphene and tamoxifen treatment, newer and safer SERMs, such as toremifene and raloxifene hit the developmental fast track. Toremifene appears to be less liver toxic, but it is an analog of tamoxifen, so it also carries many of the related genotoxic effects.48,49 Raloxifene appears to be even safer by being the least liver toxic, and not having any potential issue with the uterus or prostate.50-52 Unfortunately, raloxifene has been associated with a higher incidence of thromboembolism52 (arterial blockage), and also has very low oral absorption, making it an expensive alternative at a typical 120mg/day dose.53 Still, raloxifene could presumably be equally effective as Clomid or Nolvadex at restoring HPTA function, while imparting less side effects.53 Newer SERMs are already being evaluated such as bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene, in hopes of reducing risk even further.
Another SERM that may be useful for post cycle therapy is resveratrol.87,88 Resveratrol is a natural polyphenol extracted from grape skin, that has recently been under heavy research for its cancer fighting effects in the breast, prostate and liver.63-69 Contrary to Nolva or Clomid, resveratrol appears to actually have beneficial effects on the liver,70 as well as having multiple benefits on cardiovascular health by limiting LDL oxidation and improving endothelial function.71-73 Improved blood vessel function may be a mechanism by which resveratrol improves erectile function in many men. Research also suggests that resveratrol may actually extend life, by reducing oxidative stress on organs such as the heart,77 and preventing the metabolic syndrome by fighting insulin resistence.79,80 It’s becoming well known that insulin resistance is a leading cause of low testosterone.82 More specifically, improving insulin sensitivity will increase your leydig cell sensitivity, and therefore increase the testes response to LH.81

It should be pointed out that resveratrol may not be the best choice to combating emergency gyno, due to its lower binding affinity to the human ER of about 90x less than tamoxifen, and about 30x less than clomiphene.75,76 However, considering that resveratrol is a pure estrogen antagonist at the pituitary,89 while Clomid has mixed agonist/antagonistic effects,90-94 resveratrol could be a suitable substitute for PCT. Aside from acting as a SERM, resveratrol can also help control estrogen by actually limiting aromatase enzyme production.82 Based on the research, it appears that at least 100mg/day would needed to increase LH, FSH and testosterone production.84

Admittedly, no steroid users are dropping dead from a 4 week protocol of Nolva or Clomid, and many will say "the consequences far outweigh the benefits" -- but why deal with the potential consequences when alternatives are available?


Another article excerpt

....But raloxifene itself may eventually give way to newer, highly specific SERMs, a number of which are now in the first phases of testing. One of them, known as SERM-3, is an advanced formulation of raloxifene and may be 10 times more potent as an antiestrogen than tamoxifen, said Joyce O’Shaughnessy, M.D., director of the chemoprevention research program, Baylor University Medical Center, Dallas. "SERM-3 looks very promising as a breast cancer preventive agent," she said. An upcoming trial of SERM-3 differs from the STAR trial in that participants may be pre- or postmenopausal and may remain on hormone replacement therapy.
Aromatase inhibitors are also being examined for breast cancer prevention, although researchers are concerned that long-term, systemic effects could lead to increased osteoporosis. IBIS II, a randomized, double-blind controlled trial comparing anastrozole and tamoxifen was scheduled to begin enrolling patients in Europe in December. Joint use of an aromatase inhibitor (exemestane) with a SERM (raloxifene) is also being investigated at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, said Larry Norton, M.D., head of the division of solid tumor oncology. The idea is to lower the load of estrogen with an aromatase inhibitor and then use raloxifene, which he said "clearly reduces the incidence of breast cancer, and which works best in a low-level estrogen environment."

[boyboy]

Please if anyone can help we with this and im still trying to figure out a few things on this site , if i purchase Tamox/Clomi/L-Dex combo from arr for a pct is this oral or injection. How is this taken?

[Two4the$$]

Please if anyone can help we with this and im still trying to figure out a few things on this site , if i purchase Tamox/Clomi/L-Dex combo from arr for a pct is this oral or injection. How is this taken?

1. Don't hijack a thread that is informative.
2. You couldn't have read or understand the info - or you wouldn't be asking how to use nolvadex.
3. Ask the PROPRIETOR how to use the product he will make money off the sale of, or research it, or post a new thread, or READ the profiles forum.
4. If you think you inject nolv, clomid, or arimidex , you shouldn't be worring about an ancillary, because you shouldn't have started a cycle.

[boyboy]

Thanks for your help. Im new to this site and quite frankly not even understand the answer you have given me to my question. Not to mention why you even stated i shouldnt started a cycle.. Thanks either way.

[Selene]

Thank you for posting the article

[runninpony]

Looks to me as the only real danger would be extended use of Nolva, and most of the problems are with women. Only thing interesting to me would be the increased chance of gyno in later cycles if using Deca or Tren ....Makes one think that Nolva should maybe only used(other than PCT)only when Gyno starts to be a problem rather than preventitive during the cycle.

[THE JU-ICE]

I have never heard of or read that, but if the tamoxifen blocks the estrogen receptors, do the progesterone receptors become stronger and more sensitive?I see how it could happen, but have no experience with that.Deca gyno sucks and to think it can be increased after using novla in a test cycle blows.Any chemistry majors to shed light on this?

[Two4the$$]

First - whichever mod moved this to PCT ... you've just implied by doing so that people don't use Nolvadex ON cycle ... and narrowed the viewership of this article by putting it in to a forum with smaller viewership.

Second, liver toxic, BPH, and floaters in the eyes along with decreased visual acuity are NOT appealing - and to assume that those DONT occur in short periods to an equivalent degree per mg consummed is indefensible. It sounds like you're making an effort to reassure yourself that no change or re-evaluations to your ancillary choices are necessary.

[Adam F]

They sent this article to the corrrect forum

[Two4the$$]

They sent this article to the corrrect forum

wrong

[BIRDMAN79]

everyone should thank before doing there first cycle, or next. you could die from this sh*t. pick big and dead or nice and alive

[THE JU-ICE]

everyone should thank before doing there first cycle, or next. you could die from this sh*t. pick big and dead or nice and alive

Dude,are you serious.You are obviously in the wrong place if your preaching that kind of bullshit.I believe there is a basket weaving board if your interested.

[Lejes]

Uh oh. Liver carcinogen. That can't be good.

[doolo]

So it may be wise to switch from Nolvadex to Raloxifene for pct but stick with nolva for during cycle sides like gyno? I wonder how available this new drug is...

[Two4the$$]

Actually - I think it'd probably be better to use either aromasin or Raloxifene... I don't really see applications where other serms or ais outperform ... but if someone has any info on the shortcomings of Aromasin or Raloxifene OTHER than possibly the price... well... this'd be the place.

[doolo]

I was under the impression that Rolaxifene was a SERM not an AI and Aromasin is an AI and not a SERM. They should be used in conjuction rather then one or the other. Nolva is a SERM aswell, thats why i ask about Rolax instead of Nolva

[pedro01]

Can we get a source for this info, please ? Or even better - the full paper with references.

Many thanks

Pedro

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

Aside from restoring testosterone levels post cycle, tamoxifen is often used to combat gyno during cycle when "flare ups" occur. While tamoxifen may provide immediate inhibition of growth, and serve as valuable tool, it also has the ability to up-regulate the progesterone receptor.54-56 This is a true contradiction, which dramatically increases your chances of bringing upon gyno in future cycles when utilizing Nandrolone (Deca) or Trenbolone, both of which act upon the progesterone receptor. It is interesting to speculate: is tamoxifen use directly related to the increased gyno occurrences seen with modern day steroid users?

This is the most interesting thing in the whole article with immediate relevance to anyone currently on a cycle

thanks for the article..great insights

cheers

[pedro01]

This is the most interesting thing in the whole article with immediate relevance to anyone currently on a cycle

thanks for the article..great insights

cheers

Well - it's a great article if it's in***endent research. Since reading this I have looked all over for supporting research but haven't found any. Especially on the liver cancer issue. Sure - it causes liver cancer in rats. No proof yet in humans with the exception of this 'article'.

We can see links to reference material in there such as "progesterone receptor.54-56 This is a true contradiction" - but where is the list of referenced material at the end?

This stuff does worry me - but if I saw it on the Astra Zeneca website, I'd use a huge grain of salt in interpreting the information.

Reading articles such as this with no indication of the source, references or who actually funded the research does not constitute 'doing steroid research' in my opinion.

I am not knocking the information, just that I would not like to draw conclusions on it until it's clearer where it comes from. Otherwise, it's just another post on a web site IMO.

I mean absolutely no offence to the OP here or to anyone else.

Pedro

[ACpower]

well sh!t if thats true i need to find something other than the nolva im about to take. Im actually tapering down from letro right now and according to c binos guude u are supposed to hop on nolva at 20mg for 1 week then down to 10mg for a week after tapering. should I mess with the nolva is this study is legit

[Two4the$$]

The reason I suggested both Aromasin and Reloxafene is because they seem like strong replacements for all AI or SERM choices with the exception of Letro, which still has the apparent advantage of dealing with Progesterone. But... some people choose to run a serm for the lower dose range, and AI's for the higher dose ranges... it seems like AI's are more potent, but typically accompany more side effect potential. What ever your logic, SERM, AI, SERM+AI ... that's on you ... but the SERM or AI you choose... should be based on the pro's and cons... which also has to include the longevity, and the size of the database creating the beliefs/assertions.

The article is one I copied... I believe the sources are at the bottom in the full document, I'll post the link. But ... even though Astra-Zeneca or any mfg has a clear MOTIVE for bias, doesn't mean that they can create clearly biased studies at will. Those conditions of the study are supposed to be reported accurately, and the people often performing the studies don't work directly FOR astra-zeneca. Often, they are Dr. Offices / hospitals that treat for a particular disease, and if the person meets the criteria for the treatment, they report the results of the drug. The patient is almost always at risk of being the placebo (as in, most useful studies have a placebo group, a control), and again, sometimes the person supplying the "treatment" doesn't know if it's placebo or not (double blind, the patient AND the first person adminestering the medication). So... that the financiers of the project have a preference... doesnt change the process... and the type of money they'd be liable for in selecting whos REPORTS they included and don't include, would be Aztra-Nomical. Thus ... the criteria may have bias ... but the findings are much more trustworthy, provided you are described by the criteria of the group measured.

[Two4the$$]

http://www.****morphosis.com/article...-protocols.htm

[Two4the$$]

m - e - s - o

obviously.. its the 4 letters in succession replacing the **** , without the dashes and spaces. Why are the blocked i wonder?

[sonnygll]

A lot of weird $h1t is blocked on here. Like D - E - P for example. like the word ***ends, or ***ot, which seems kind of stupid. I suppose I will say d3pends and d3pot instead. And m3s0 if needed. Profanity in a foreign language maybe? It's m3s0 d3ping silly. Damn m3s0 d3pers! lol

Anyway, I don't think I would take nolva. It looks potentially dangerous. I also don't like what I've seen about raloxifene. Just look at the sides here.
http://www.medicinenet.com/raloxifene-oral/article.htm
http://www.evista.com/understand_evi...de_effects.jsp
http://www.chemocare.com/bio/raloxifene.asp

Now think about the fact that legs are sometimes amputated to keep clots from breaking off and lodging in the heart which would cause death. Or if blockage causes enough tissue death. It probably wouldn't happen, but if something goes wrong...... Well I don't think you'd be bodybuilding anymore.

I like clomid myself. The sides are pretty mild for men. The vision thing is very rare and temporary. Plus I already know I tolerate it well.

The AI's mostly look good to me. Except letro, since it has the potential to lower estrogen so dramatically, it could cause some problems. The other ones look great.