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  1. #1
    FortKnox36's Avatar
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    COUPLE questions for you fellas

    ok heres my deal.....

    I am on Test E. 250mg/week weeks 1-10

    Test Prop. 75mg EOD M/W/F weeks 6-11

    Winny 50mg/day weeks 4-7 and then weeks 10-11

    I know this cycle seems kinda messed up and it might be....but my question to all you guys is how does it look to you? I just started my prop and I am almost done with my first 4 weeks of winny. I can change some stuff around...so all quick advice is crucial..I am suppose to inject prop today..if i decide too. Advice would be fantastic. thanks.

    Also.......here is my PCT (start 3 days after last injection of prop. and pill taken)

    20mg/day of nolva and then after 2 weeks 40mg/day nolva for a total of 4 weeks of nolva

    I also have some clen but a low dosage...wondering if I should buy more

    So yeah thts my PCT....should I add something..? Thanks!
    Last edited by FortKnox36; 08-13-2007 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #2
    Njord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    ok heres my deal.....

    I am on Test E. 250mg/week weeks 1-10

    Test Prop. 75mg EOD M/W/F weeks 6-11

    Winny 50mg/day weeks 4-7 and then weeks 10-11

    I know this cycle seems kinda messed up and it might be....but my question to all you guys is how does it look to you? I just started my prop and I am almost done with my first 4 weeks of winny. I can change some stuff around...so all quick advice is crucial..I am suppose to inject prop today..if i decide too. Advice would be fantastic. thanks.

    Also.......here is my PCT (start 3 days after last injection of prop. and pill taken)

    20mg/day of nolva and then after 2 weeks 40mg/day nolva for a total of 3 weeks of nolva

    I also have some clen but a low dosage...wondering if I should buy more

    So yeah thts my PCT....should I add something..? Thanks!
    That sure is a weird cycle, I'm not even going to comment on it.
    Your PCT needs work. Running Nolva only for 3 weeks is not good enough. Add an AI in there and run for 4 weeks. Taper doses down, not up.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njord
    That sure is a weird cycle, I'm not even going to comment on it.
    Your PCT needs work. Running Nolva only for 3 weeks is not good enough. Add an AI in there and run for 4 weeks. Taper doses down, not up.
    I just started my prop. (2 shots of 75mg) I am suppose to inject my third today of 75mg. Before I do so...is there a "better" way to run it? Please do comment...I am taking this very seriously.

  4. #4
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njord
    That sure is a weird cycle, I'm not even going to comment on it.
    Your PCT needs work. Running Nolva only for 3 weeks is not good enough. Add an AI in there and run for 4 weeks. Taper doses down, not up.
    LOL Njord

  5. #5
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Got alot of things all going on at once give me a sec and I will try.

    Merc.

  6. #6
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    ok heres my deal.....

    I am on Test E. 250mg/week weeks 1-10

    Test Prop. 75mg EOD M/W/F weeks 6-11

    Winny 50mg/day weeks 4-7 and then weeks 10-11

    I know this cycle seems kinda messed up and it might be....but my question to all you guys is how does it look to you? I just started my prop and I am almost done with my first 4 weeks of winny. I can change some stuff around...so all quick advice is crucial..I am suppose to inject prop today..if i decide too. Advice would be fantastic. thanks.

    Also.......here is my PCT (start 3 days after last injection of prop. and pill taken)

    20mg/day of nolva and then after 2 weeks 40mg/day nolva for a total of 4 weeks of nolva

    I also have some clen but a low dosage...wondering if I should buy more

    So yeah thts my PCT....should I add something..? Thanks!
    Qiucly give me ur stats and cycle history please..


    Merc.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    LOL Njord
    Look...this isnt funny to me. I know I have a kinda messed up cycle..but I need to know what to do from here..I thought I could get a lot of good advice here. I am on my 4th week of winny 50mg/day
    6th week of test E. 250mg/week
    1st week of test Prop. 75mg M/W/F

    I am willing to change the prop around...if needed....is there anything I can do with the winny? Test E. I cant really do much with now. Thanks.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    Qiucly give me ur stats and cycle history please..


    Merc.

    This is my first cycle

    age 21

    weight 210

    is tht what u wanted for stats?

  9. #9
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    Look...this isnt funny to me. I know I have a kinda messed up cycle..but I need to know what to do from here..I thought I could get a lot of good advice here. I am on my 4th week of winny 50mg/day
    6th week of test E. 250mg/week
    1st week of test Prop. 75mg M/W/F

    I am willing to change the prop around...if needed....is there anything I can do with the winny? Test E. I cant really do much with now. Thanks.
    Chill man I was JOKING !! Its monday morning ya know and just trying to lightin things up I am sorry you took it the wrong way..

  10. #10
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    Chill man I was JOKING !! Its monday morning ya know and just trying to lightin things up I am sorry you took it the wrong way..
    My fault. I didn't mean to come off like I was pissed, I am just serious about trying to figure this out. Merc if you could help me out, id greatly appreciate it. I mainly need to figure out the best way to run my prop and, if anything, what i can do with the winny from this point. Also if there could be any advice on my PCT...that would be greatly appreciated. Again sorry for commin off as "pissed." Happy monday morning.

  12. #12
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    ok heres my deal.....

    I am on Test E. 250mg/week weeks 1-10

    Test Prop. 75mg EOD M/W/F weeks 6-11

    Winny 50mg/day weeks 4-7 and then weeks 10-11

    I know this cycle seems kinda messed up and it might be....but my question to all you guys is how does it look to you? I just started my prop and I am almost done with my first 4 weeks of winny. I can change some stuff around...so all quick advice is crucial..I am suppose to inject prop today..if i decide too. Advice would be fantastic. thanks.

    Also.......here is my PCT (start 3 days after last injection of prop. and pill taken)


    20mg/day of nolva and then after 2 weeks 40mg/day nolva for a total of 4 weeks of nolva

    I also have some clen but a low dosage...wondering if I should buy more

    So yeah thts my PCT....should I add something..? Thanks!

    I dont know why you choose to run your cycle like you have laid out . IMO your making it way to complicated. You should have just went with test at 500mg /wk ( also your only 21 which is a bit young in my opinion).Also proper diet and training stimulus are key and are what are going to get you where you need to be!! That said. Lets take a look at what you have laid out here.

    Why are you choosing to run prop in the middle of you first Test-e cycle?? You should have just went with the test e at 400-500 mg per week for 10-11 and be done with it..

    Why are you proposing running winny twice in one cycle ( and on your first cycle) Either use it at the begin or the end ..

    Let me stop here and make sure I understand what your saying. What week are you on right now and how many injects of prop have you done already..

    I want to give you a push in the right direction but I want to make sure I am clear on what your doing Thanks

    Merc

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    I dont know why you choose to run your cycle like you have laid out . IMO your making it way to complicated. You should have just went with test at 500mg /wk ( also your only 21 which is a bit young in my opinion).Also proper diet and training stimulus are key and are what are going to get you where you need to be!! That said. Lets take a look at what you have laid out here.

    Why are you choosing to run prop in the middle of you first Test-e cycle?? You should have just went with the test e at 400-500 mg per week for 10-11 and be done with it..

    Why are you proposing running winny twice in one cycle ( and on your first cycle) Either use it at the begin or the end ..

    Let me stop here and make sure I understand what your saying. What week are you on right now and how many injects of prop have you done already..

    I want to give you a push in the right direction but I want to make sure I am clear on what your doing Thanks

    Merc
    First off....thanks merc for halpin me out! The reasoning behind my madness cannot be explained. However, I am where I am and like you said, I need a push in the right direction. Of course my diet and training are on key though (I have been training for 5 years)

    Well I am on my 6th week of test E. (wednesday will be the start of my 7th)

    I am on my 4th week of winny (sat will be the end)

    I started my winny too late, due to shipping issues, and I was thinking of stopping after 4 weeks and then starting again on week 10 of the test E. and run it through week 11 (total of 2 more weeks) I thought this might be better for PCT recovery.

    I hav injected 2 shots of prop.

    1st injection was last week wednesday and 2nd injection was friday. (each 75mg)

    Today is suppose to be my third and I was planning on following a M/W/F routine of 75mg.

    Thanks merc.

  14. #14
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    First off....thanks merc for halpin me out! The reasoning behind my madness cannot be explained. However, I am where I am and like you said, I need a push in the right direction. Of course my diet and training are on key though (I have been training for 5 years)

    Well I am on my 6th week of test E. (wednesday will be the start of my 7th)

    I am on my 4th week of winny (sat will be the end)

    I started my winny too late, due to shipping issues, and I was thinking of stopping after 4 weeks and then starting again on week 10 of the test E. and run it through week 11 (total of 2 more weeks) I thought this might be better for PCT recovery.

    I hav injected 2 shots of prop.

    1st injection was last week wednesday and 2nd injection was friday. (each 75mg)

    Today is suppose to be my third and I was planning on following a M/W/F routine of 75mg.

    Thanks merc.
    No problem !! Ok then.


    Since you are already on a cycle lets try and look at what could be done at this point.. You really shoud have researched alot more before jumping into this one..

    I would up the test E and extend the cycle to maybe 12-13 wks . Drop the prop it does not matter that you took 2 shots it is unnecessary to have it in your this cycle.

    With the winny go 5 weeks total ( could go six if you wanted to but please research this more before you do anything) And do not use it again this cycle.. Just the first 5-6 weeks (since you already started )..

    Please look below my post in my signature and click on the link hookers pct.. Thats the best IMO..

    Merc
    Last edited by Merc..; 08-13-2007 at 10:58 AM.

  15. #15
    FortKnox36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    No problem !! Ok then.


    Since you are already on a cycle lets try and look at what could be done at this point.. You really shoud have researched alot more before jumping into this one..

    I would up the test E and extend the cycle to maybe 12-13 wks . Drop the prop it does not matter that you took 2 shots it is unnecessary to have it in your this cycle.

    With the winny go 5 weeks total ( could go six if you wanted to but please research this more before you do anything) And do not use it again this cycle.. Just the first 5-6 weeks (since you already started )..

    Please look below my post in my signature and click on the link hookers pct.. Thats the best IMO..

    Merc
    Thanks for clearing up the winny and PCT problem!


    I'll just keep on the winny for 5-6weeks.

    Ok...as for the test...

    I only have 4 amps of test E...meaning i cannot up the dose or extend the cycle unless i get more...which I am not sure I want to do..I have a lot of test prop. and i really would like to inccorporate this into my cycle. How should I run it so it goes good with my PCT recovery?

    So basically i want to run the prop. I just need to know the best way in your opinion. Thanks merc. you have been a lot of good help. I am feelin a little better each time u post.

    C

  16. #16
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    Thanks for clearing up the winny and PCT problem!


    I'll just keep on the winny for 5-6weeks.

    Ok...as for the test...

    I only have 4 amps of test E...meaning i cannot up the dose or extend the cycle unless i get more...which I am not sure I want to do..I have a lot of test prop. and i really would like to inccorporate this into my cycle. How should I run it so it goes good with my PCT recovery?

    So basically i want to run the prop. I just need to know the best way in your opinion. Thanks merc. you have been a lot of good help. I am feelin a little better each time u post.

    C
    Glad I can try and help you out.. Dont mind it when people listen some peeps already no everything so need to say anything to them ... But at least your researching now and thats great ( I only wish you did more before you started )..

    5-6 wks total on the winny ( so your just bout done with it, just wanted to be clear here) ????

    Hmmmm,

    Best thing to do is get more test-e if anyway possible as I already said it is your best route at this point IMO.

    I suppose you could finish up your test -e and than switch over to prop at 100 mg EOD.

    Lets bump this for more thoughts though.....


    BIG BUMP ?????


    Merc

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    Glad I can try and help you out.. Dont mind it when people listen some peeps already no everything so need to say anything to them ... But at least your researching now and thats great ( I only wish you did more before you started )..

    5-6 wks total on the winny ( so your just bout done with it, just wanted to be clear here) ????

    Hmmmm,

    Best thing to do is get more test-e if anyway possible as I already said it is your best route at this point IMO.

    I suppose you could finish up your test -e and than switch over to prop at 100 mg EOD.

    Lets bump this for more thoughts though.....


    BIG BUMP ?????


    Merc

    Thanks again for responding so quickly!

    To clear things up about the winny....I am on my 4th week now...This saturday will be the start of my 5th...so yes almost done with this. BTW I love this stuff...

    I have been only running 250mg/week of test. E...That is why I wanted to up my test...so I went with a fast acting test so it would kick in faster!

    What do you think about this...

    Run test Prop. weeks 9-12?

    and then start my PCT 3 days after my last shot...

    Also! concerning the PCT...is HCG necessary? I feel my cycle wasnt too strong...

    Merc you'e been great!

    C

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    Thanks again for responding so quickly!

    To clear things up about the winny....I am on my 4th week now...This saturday will be the start of my 5th...so yes almost done with this. BTW I love this stuff...

    I have been only running 250mg/week of test. E...That is why I wanted to up my test...so I went with a fast acting test so it would kick in faster!

    What do you think about this...

    Run test Prop. weeks 9-12?

    and then start my PCT 3 days after my last shot...

    Also! concerning the PCT...is HCG necessary? I feel my cycle wasnt too strong...

    Merc you'e been great!

    C
    I dont see why you couldnt pull that off like you suggested with the prop..

    Have to use hcg no, but do I recommed it for you , Hell YA.. I have worked with hooker( concering hcg) and have a pretty extensive knowlage about HCG so I like its effects in the protocol he created..

    Without getting into it to much many people dont advocate hcg for post cycle due to its suppressive nature ( is effects on 17 hydroxyprogesterone, and for you peeps that think it caused by PKC please look up desentize and leydig on pubmed and you will see its most likley caused by effects on 17 OHP not PKC)

    I know Xmoe hangs out alot here in the pct forum . And maybe he can chime in on this subject ?????


    Merc.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    I dont see why you couldnt pull that off like you suggested with the prop..

    Have to use hcg no, but do I recommed it for you , Hell YA.. I have worked with hooker( concering hcg) and have a pretty extensive knowlage about HCG so I like its effects in the protocol he created..

    Without getting into it to much many people dont advocate hcg for post cycle due to its suppressive nature ( is effects on 17 hydroxyprogesterone, and for you peeps that think it caused by PKC please look up desentize and leydig on pubmed and you will see its most likley caused by effects on 17 OHP not PKC)

    I know Xmoe hangs out alot here in the pct forum . And maybe he can chime in on this subject ?????


    Merc.
    Thanks merc.

    I hav read tht hooker actually got put into jail and isnt allowed to even give steroid advice anymore because he was caught giving false information?

    Anyways....thanks again merc for everything u helped me with...I have decided to hold off with the prop untill week 8 and once i stop the winny i will start injecting prop.

    Just oone more question regaurding the prop..

    prop. week 8-12

    How should i run it?

    100mg EOD or 75mg EOD?

    I am wanting to go with the 75mg EOD...can you give mne the pros and cons to this>? thanks!

    C

  20. #20
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    Thanks merc.

    I hav read tht hooker actually got put into jail and isnt allowed to even give steroid advice anymore because he was caught giving false information?

    Anyways....thanks again merc for everything u helped me with...I have decided to hold off with the prop untill week 8 and once i stop the winny i will start injecting prop.

    Just oone more question regaurding the prop..

    prop. week 8-12

    How should i run it?

    100mg EOD or 75mg EOD?

    I am wanting to go with the 75mg EOD...can you give mne the pros and cons to this>? thanks!

    C
    What HELL NO !!! Where did you hear it ??? Hookers was not put in jail for anything to do with what your saying.. Is it illegal to give bad advise ??? Come on

    He is my friend and I hate all the drama people start about him...

    Well anyways

    100 mg eod is 400 mg / wk approx

    75mg eod is 300mg/ wk approx

    So depending on what dose you what to go with. Its totally up to you...


    Merc.
    Last edited by Merc..; 08-13-2007 at 03:15 PM.

  21. #21
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    i gotta say after all those replies when it comes to his cycle i think im very confused, but im pretty sure merc said everything that has to be said. As for pct yes anothony's pct is a good one, i simply advice anyone who cant get some hcg to run Clomid+Nolva+Aromasin pct and you wont be disappointed.
    Last edited by x_moe; 08-13-2007 at 05:34 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    What HELL NO !!! Where did you hear it ??? Hookers was not put in jail for anything to do with what your saying.. Is it illegal to give bad advise ??? Come on

    He is my friend and I hate all the drama people start about him...

    Well anyways

    100 mg eod is 400 mg / wk approx

    75mg eod is 300mg/ wk approx

    So depending on what dose you what to go with. Its totally up to you...


    Merc.
    Thanks man...you have been a big help!!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    Thanks man...you have been a big help!!
    Please be sure to keep us posted on your progress



    Merc.

  24. #24
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    Pct

    hey merc (or others)...just a few things on my PCT if you dont mind..


    Stats:
    Male
    height:6'1
    weight:210lbs
    BF:10.8%
    age:21

    As you know now my cycle is:

    week 1-10 test e 250mcg/week
    week 3-8 winny 50mg/day
    week 8-11 test prop. 75mcg EOD

    For my PCT

    tribulus 10-15 3g ED

    I am debating whether to run my Nolva....

    week 12 40mg ED
    week 13 30mg ED
    week 14 20mg ED
    (I want to spike my test levels as fast as possible so tht is why I want to strt with 40mg)

    -or-

    week 12-15 20mg


    I also have one hundred pills of 20mg clen and i was wondering wht is the best way I can incorporate this into my cycle.


    Thanks,
    C

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    hey merc (or others)...just a few things on my PCT if you dont mind..


    Stats:
    Male
    height:6'1
    weight:210lbs
    BF:10.8%
    age:21

    As you know now my cycle is:

    week 1-10 test e 250mcg/week
    week 3-8 winny 50mg/day
    week 8-11 test prop. 75mcg EOD

    For my PCT

    tribulus 10-15 3g ED

    I am debating whether to run my Nolva....

    week 12 40mg ED
    week 13 30mg ED
    week 14 20mg ED
    (I want to spike my test levels as fast as possible so tht is why I want to strt with 40mg)

    -or-
    )
    week 12-15 20mg


    I also have one hundred pills of 20mg clen and i was wondering wht is the best way I can incorporate this into my cycle.


    Thanks,
    C
    I dont know alot about supplements.. That said
    Trib has estrogenic properties from what I have seen ( if someone has studies showing different please post em up ) Maybe look into things like powerfull , tong kat ali or something like that if you want to include that to you pct.You can use 20 30 or 40 mg of nolva per day its all up to you in the end ya know.. I already told you I like hookers pct ( link to it in my signature below ) but there are other protocols and again is up to you , just check em all out and See what looks the best( or most logical to you)..

    As for clen . Be sure to check the edu threads from the clenbuterol handbook.. After you read that you can get a good understanding of and decide if you think it for you..

    Merc.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    I dont know alot about supplements.. That said
    Trib has estrogenic properties from what I have seen ( if someone has studies showing different please post em up ) Maybe look into things like powerfull , tong kat ali or something like that if you want to include that to you pct.You can use 20 30 or 40 mg of nolva per day its all up to you in the end ya know.. I already told you I like hookers pct ( link to it in my signature below ) but there are other protocols and again is up to you , just check em all out and See what looks the best( or most logical to you)..

    As for clen . Be sure to check the edu threads from the clenbuterol handbook.. After you read that you can get a good understanding of and decide if you think it for you..

    Merc.
    Thanks again merc! Just one thing....

    what is the edu threads from clenbuterol handbook? Sorry if this is a dumb question...

    thanks ,
    C

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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    Thanks again merc! Just one thing....

    what is the edu threads from clenbuterol handbook? Sorry if this is a dumb question...

    thanks ,
    C
    Educational threads ( alot of good
    stuff here please check it out) Also take a look at the bloodwork sticky I posted and the how to search thread is good , There is some top notch knowlage here )

    http://forums.steroid.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

    Look through here for the clenbuterol handbook thread..


    Merc.
    Last edited by Merc..; 08-15-2007 at 08:38 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortKnox36
    Thanks again merc! Just one thing....

    what is the edu threads from clenbuterol handbook? Sorry if this is a dumb question...

    thanks ,
    C
    Also check out perfect beast clen thread. ( thanks PB !!)

    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ect+beast+clen
    Last edited by Merc..; 08-15-2007 at 07:24 AM.

  29. #29
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    BUMP on the trib estrongen question ?????

    In post in # 25 !!!!


    Merc.

  30. #30
    x_moe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merc.
    BUMP on the trib estrongen question ?????

    In post in # 25 !!!!


    Merc.

    are you sure tribulus have estrogen properties? from what i know all it does is raise testosterone , thus will cause more aromatization (not to a point were it will cause problems tho).

  31. #31
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Xmoe, Positive ( I cant believe you never saw any studies showing that ???).. This is a thread I started well over a year ago and the seems to still be confliticng info on this that why I bumped for more info . Check this out ... Please read the entire thread but check out papi 93 and bryans 2 post...

    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...raise+estrogen

    Thanks

    Merc.


    Quote Originally Posted by x_moe
    are you sure tribulus have estrogen properties? from what i know all it does is raise testosterone, thus will cause more aromatization (not to a point were it will cause problems tho).
    Last edited by Merc..; 08-15-2007 at 04:04 PM.

  32. #32
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Hey xmoe , I highlighted some things in red below.. There seems to still be conflicting info on this subject I am trying to figure out what is corrrect..

    Tribulus Terrestris Extract: Supplement Fact or Fiction
    by Bryan Haycock M.Sc., CSCS
    [email protected]

    Please send us your feedback on this article.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I first read of a tribulus terrestris product called Tribestan®, which I believe was the first tribulus terrestris product marketed to the public, in Dan Duchaine’s Underground Steroid Handbook. Since that time I have accumulated mostly second hand accounts of how, and how well, it works. Tribulus is an herbal supplement used since the late 70's in Eastern Europe. It’s purported effects include increased luteinizing hormone release and thus testosterone production, increased sperm production, increased ejaculatory volume, and increased libido. In young patients with a condition known as hypogonadism, an increase in pubic hair has also been observed. All of these effects make tribulus an interesting supplement indeed.

    I should tell you at the onset that very little research has been done on tribulus outside of eastern Europe let alone without some association with a Bulgarian company called Sopharma. This makes getting access to independent studies in English very difficult because they are virtually non-existent. Most of the information I will use is provided by Sopharma of Bulgaria. Many of you know that this is the company the manufactures Tribestan®. This does not mean the data is necessarily false, it simply needs to be kept in mind when interpreting the data. Much of their research on tribulus terrestris was used to get patent approval as well as to get the product registered for distribution in the United States.

    So why is there so little research done on herbal preparations with medicinal purposes here in the US? For those of you not from the U.S. or not familiar with the American Medical Model I will briefly explain. Here in the U.S. we practice what is sometimes called "rescue medicine". This refers to the fact that we put the overwhelming majority of our funds and man hours into discovering ways to save people from the brink of death. Regardless of what you here on the morning news, there is only a minute percentage of federal moneys spent on exploring preventative medicine. We claim bragging rights to a considerable number of medical innovations all designed to cheat fate (A.K.A. death). If nature has dealt you a bad hand you can count on the American Medical Association to do everything in their Hippocratic power to slip you an Ace or two under the operating table. More often than not this simply prolongs the suffering of the sick as they "enjoy" the sometimes involuntary treatment from medical doctors.

    Recently there has been a push from the public to explore more holistic approaches to health. The popularity of "alternative medicine" has been growing every year for the past decade or more. Where are we getting this alternative medicine? From countries in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and of course the Far East. In countries such as China, Bulgaria and the former Soviet Union plants with medicinal properties are taken very seriously. Scientists involved in this research are just as respected as those involved in more traditional "western" medicine, unlike here in the U.S. where they are often labeled as quacks. OK, time to step down form my soap box. Let me finish by saying that things are changing here in the U.S. and I wouldn’t be surprised to see a dramatic paradigm shift in the next couple of years as herbal medicine shows itself profitable to pharmaceutical companies. After all, where do you think the exorbitant amounts of money spent on health care go? That’s right, into the pockets of those working in the health care and pharmaceutical industry.

    The original purpose for tribulus terrestris extract was as a "tonic" to treat sexual dysfunction. In animal husbandry studies tribulus extract was shown to stimulate rutting behavior (i.e. attempting to score) in rams as well as boars. When the supplement Tribestan® was given to healthy men (Milanov, 1981) in a dose of 750 milligrams per day for five days, LH and testosterone were elevated 72% and 40% respectively. As you might expect, estradiol was also elevated. In fact estradiol was elevated by 81%! The increase in testosterone is obviously what all the fuss is about, nevertheless, you can’t ignore the fact that whenever you increase testosterone you are going to increase aromatization and therefore estrogen levels. To put these changes in hormone levels into perspective, the reference range for testosterone in men is between 300 - 1,000 ng/dL. The subjects in this study started out with an average of 600 ng/dL and ended up with about 850 ng/dL. This is still well within the "normal" range for men. Estradiol on the other hand went from normal levels of about 76 pg/ml to significantly elevated levels of 137.5 pg/ml. This is well above normal levels which range from about 20-80 pg/ml in men.

    So why haven’t people been reporting symptoms of elevated estrogens like bloating and gynecomastia from the use of tribulus products? My first response would be to say because they are not actually experiencing elevated estradiol levels due to the poor quality of most tribulus terrestris supplements. Lab tests (paid for by Sopharma) on several manufacturers of raw tribulus terrestris extract show that the majority don’t contain sufficient levels of protodioscine. Sopharma also went on to test various supplements said to contain tribulus terrestris extract and found most all of them to contain far less than that found in Tribestan®. Another important issue to point out is that tribulus terrestris as an herbal supplement is not the same thing as tribulus terrestris extract. Plain tribulus terrestris looks like any other herb that has been chopped up finely and dried, no different than the dried herbs you buy to cook with (Fig. 1). Tribulus terrestris extract looks much different. It is a reddish brown powder (Fig. 2).


    Figure 1. Raw tribulus terrestris Figure 2. Tribulus terrestris extract

    Tribulus extract is extremely safe and appears to have no undesirable side effects. One of the reasons Tribulus extract doesn’t seem to have any apparent side effects in research subjects is because it doesn’t push testosterone above "upper" normal levels. The body is seemingly up-regulating aromatization to accommodate for the increase in LH and testosterone. No studies have been done to date to support this but from the changes in testosterone and estradiol respectively I would say there is a good chance this is in fact what is happening.

    So to get the most out of tribulus extract I would suggest that you make sure you are in fact taking tribulus terrestris extract. Now that you know what it looks like you should have no problem finding a product that at least appears to be genuine. Although Chrysin has not exactly performed as expected, if you take enough of it you should be able to reduce the amount of aromatization caused by tribulus extract and hopefully increase testosterone levels slightly more. 1.5 -2 grams per day is a good place to start with Chrysin. Obviously an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex would be perfect if you have access to it. ˝ tablet per day would be sufficient for the first week, then ˝ tablet every other day for the duration of time using tribulus extract should be enough. You don’t want to completely inhibit aromatase because that will lead to a reduction in GH and IGF-1 levels. As a rule of thumb take as little Arimidex as you need to control symptoms.Prohormones such as androstenediol and/or norandrostenediol should theoretically also be helpful when taking tribulus extract. To be more precise, tribulus should help prevent or postpone the reduction of LH caused by chronic prohormone intake. I am also assuming that you would be using prohormones to elevate testosterone levels not just to "help" your workouts. This usually requires higher doses of prohormones taken throughout the day and can be accompanied by the usual unwanted side effects. Keep in mind that we are talking about taking 750-1,500 milligrams of pure tribulus extract per day to be effective. Taking less will simply be a waste of money for most people. Upon discontinuation of the tribulus product you should taper your dose over a period of at least 2-3 weeks.

    Summary of Tribulus terrestris extract

    Compound:
    Tribulus terrestris extract

    NOTE: The following comments and recommendations are valid only with respect to tribulus products containing tribulus terrestris extract standardized for at least 45% steroidal saponins of the furostanol type. Of these saponins protodioscine should predominate.

    Reported Benefit:
    Marketed as a "testosterone booster ", claims include increased Luteinizing Hormone (LH) release and thus increased testosterone production. Unfortunately claims about tribulus products usually insinuate that you will get steroid-like effects from this product. Even the most potent tribulus products will not approach the effectiveness of most synthetic androgens for building muscle.

    Have controlled studies been performed?
    Yes, but most research was done in Eastern Europe and was sponsored/produced by Sopharma, a manufacturer of the product. Their research shows tribulus terrestris extract to have a significant effect by increasing LH (~72%), testosterone(~40%), and estradiol(~80%).

    Mechanism of action:
    Tribulus Terrestris extract has been shown to stimulate LH release from the pituitary gland. It may also have some peripheral effects as manifested by increased pubic hair in some hypogonadal test subjects. It is speculated that the metabolites of protodioscine may also have mild androgenic properties. The exact mechanisms are still vague and current explanations are speculative at best.

    Interaction with other nutrients?
    No

    Effective dose:
    Effective doses used in clinical settings are 750-1500 milligrams per day.

    NOTE: I refer to studies using Tribestan®. Other supplements with lower concentrations of active steroidal saponins would require larger doses to achieve the same effect.

    Proper dosing schedule:
    Take 3-4 times per day with meals. As the half-life of protodioscine is very low (~2 ˝ hours), a more frequent dosing schedule might increase effectiveness.

    NOTE: In order to have an effect on male fertility supplementation must continue for at least 90 days.

    Toxicity?
    None

    Conditions where may be effective:
    May be most effective at correcting a decline in LH pulsatile amplitude and/or frequency. Should be effective at returning testosterone to "normal" levels in situations where testosterone is abnormally low such as in chronic or acute hypogonadism, after a steroid cycle, while overtraining, with age associated declines in testosterone, and during extreme and/or prolonged dieting.

    NOTE: Taking an aromatase inhibitor should significantly enhance the effectiveness of tribulus terrestris extract to elevate serum testosterone.


    References for Tribulus terrestris extract:

    Vankov, S. Apropos of Tribestan pharmacology. Scientific-technical Report, 1980.
    Viktorov, Iv., D. Kaloyanov, Al. Lilov, L. Zlatanova, Vl., Kasabov. Clinical investigation on Tribestan in males with disorders in the sexual function MBI, 1982 (in print).
    Gendjeiv, Z. Studies on Tribestan carcinogenicity. Scientific-technical report, 1981.
    Koumanov, F., E. Bozadjieva, M. Andreeva, E. Platonova, V. Ankov. Clinical trial of Tribestan. Exper. Med. 1982, 2.
    Milanov, S., E. Maleeva, M. Tashkov. Tribestan effect on the concentration of some hormones in the serum of healthy subjects (Company documentation)(1981).
    Nikolov, R. Neuropharmacological Study on Tribestan. Scientific-technical report, 1981.
    Protich, M., D. Tsvetkov, B. Nalbanski, R. Stanislavov, M. Katsarova. Clinical trial of Tribestan in infertile males. Scientific-technical Report, 1981.
    Tanev, G., S. Zarkova, Toxicological studies on Tribestan. Scientific-technical Report, 1981.
    Tomova, M., R. Gyulemetova, S. Zarkova. An agent for stimulation of sexual function. Patent (11) 27584 A61K35/1978.
    Tomova, M., R. Gyulemetova, S. Zarkova - License (11) 27584 AGIR 35/1978.
    Tomova, M., R. Gyulemetova, S. Zarkova at al., License 68428/18.I.1985.
    Please send us your feedback on this article.

    by Bryan Haycock M.Sc., CSCS
    [email protected]






    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Last edited by Merc..; 08-15-2007 at 04:00 PM.

  33. #33
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    So whats the conclusion!? so the article is saying the estrogen was elevated more than testosterone was, i think that clearly means that estrogen was not raised just by aromatization, are there more studies on this ?

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    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by x_moe
    So whats the conclusion!? so the article is saying the estrogen was elevated more than testosterone was, i think that clearly means that estrogen was not raised just by aromatization, are there more studies on this ?

    I am still trying to figure the conclusion out myself .. The studies go back and forth on this( from all the ones I saw anyways).. I know papi 93 did alot of research on this and had studies to back it( I had some studies also but my cpu crashed and I lost them)..

    It's a very intersting topic to me though as alot of people use trib..


    Merc.

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    Im also interested, when you get some more info. on this pls hit me up

  36. #36
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by x_moe
    Im also interested, when you get some more info. on this pls hit me up
    Will do !!

    BUMPER for some feedback fellas ??????????




    Merc.

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    I have seen a couple of people BW after trib and sure enough it did virtually nothing to test levels but did raise estrogen by a fair bit.

  38. #38
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfectbeast2001
    I have seen a couple of people BW after trib and sure enough it did virtually nothing to test levels but did raise estrogen by a fair bit.
    Thanks PB ,

    So are we going to come to a final conclusion that trib does raise estrogen ???? ( for now based on the studies and info we have here as of now??) and can cause gyno !!!!!


    Merc.

  39. #39
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    that would be my conclusion.

  40. #40
    Merc.. is offline Steroidpedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfectbeast2001
    that would be my conclusion.
    Thanks PB ,, I just was double checking where all on the same page with this one....




    Merc

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