Very confused about PCT and gyno, please help...

**WilliamCutting** · 05-30-2009, 07:44 PM

I'm really confused about the best PCT approach for my cycle. I'm going to be doing 12 weeks of Test E at 500 mg a week, with 40 mg of Dbol ED weeks 1-4. This is my first cycle. Originally, I was going to follow Pheedno's PCT which looks like this:

Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

However, the more posts I read on here, the more confused I get, because I find a bunch of conflicting information. Some posts say the L-dex isn't needed, etc. I have L-dex, clomid and nolvadex on hand. Before I start my cycle, can someone with alot more experience than me let me know what route I should take? I wanna make sure I do this right.

My next question is about gyno. If I start noticing any symptoms, my original plan was to start taking 20 mg of Novla and .25 mg L-dex ED, stopping the Nolva once the symptoms were gone, but continuing the L-dex straight through to the end of my PCT. Is this smart and will it be effective?

I apprecaite anyone's help, I seriously read through C-Bino's and War Machine's posts on gyno, but find alot of conflicting info and am not sure what route to go in.

Thanks for your time....

**c-Z** · 05-31-2009, 10:04 AM

I'm a fan of nolva and clomid with pct. with a-dex during cycle.. I keep it on hand if gyno symptoms start occuring. Every one has there own opinions though...

**WilliamCutting** · 05-31-2009, 03:06 PM

OK, let me see if I got this correct. For PCT:

Clomid: 100/100/50/50
Nolva: 40/40/20/20

Skip the L-dex.

If gyno symptoms occur:

Nolva, 40 mg ED, for the first 5 days. If it gets better, lower to 20, then to 10, and say on 10 until the end of PCT.

Now does that mean that the amounts I would've take for PCT are now void? Just continue the 10 mg ED until I finish with the Clomid?

If I started taking the Nolva due to gyno symptoms, should I start the L-dex, if so, at what dosage and for how long?

I didn't plan on using L-dex throughout my cycle unless needed. I purchased it as I planned on following Pheedno's PCT, but in War Machine's post about gyno prevention it says not to use L-dex in PCT.

If this helps, I'm 32, 6' 1", 233 lbs. approx. 14% BF (weight and body fat check at gym last week).

Like I said before, this is my first cycle, I've been training for 11 years, I'm planning on doing 500 mg Test E for 12 weeks, with 40 mg Dbol weeks 1-4.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to start until I got this figured out.

**WARMachine** · 05-31-2009, 05:57 PM

"Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT by WARMachine"
"Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT by WARMachine"

Read, then read again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again... Then if you have more questions, come back...

**WilliamCutting** · 05-31-2009, 06:28 PM

So what you're trying to say is I should read it again?

Seriously though, I'm reading it now and doing my best to understand everything.

I can appreciate the frustration of the people who've been in this game and on this board for a long time. Dealing with guys like me who don't know sh*t and ask the same questions dozens of times a day gets old, especially when you've taken the time to put together detailed posts covering the exact topic.

But please understand, as much as I like breasts, I don't want a pair of my own, hence the repetitive questions.

I'll read, and re-read, and read again all this info and hopefully I'll be able to sort it out on my own.

**WilliamCutting** · 05-31-2009, 06:59 PM

Ok, from WarMachine's post, I gathered this:

"FOR ON CYCLE ESTROGEN CONTROL"

Adex - .5mgs EOD (For first time users.)

If sides do not decrease much, you may increase the dose to .25mgs ED, or as high as .5mgs ED. I would not exceed 1mgs ED use under any circumstances, at that point, the use of Letro should be looked at.

"FOR GYNO REDUCTION"

Tamox - 40mgs ED (for the first 5 days.)

From there you can drop the dose to 20mgs ED, and if symptoms subside, continue use of 10mgs throughout the remainder of your cycle and into PCT."

So basically the post is saying that L-dex is best used during a the cycle to control estrogen. If it's not used, and gyno symptoms occur, then Tamox is used. I'm assuming that 10 mg is taken until the END of PCT.

The second thing I learned so far is L-dex and Nolva are NOT taken together, as the Nolva will decrease the effects of the L-dex.

Alright, I think I understand. Basically, I have three things on-hand that I was able to get through my only trusted, reliable source. Clomid, Nolvadex and L-dex.

The only use the L-dex would have to me at this point would be to control estrogen throughout the cycle, however it will do nothing to assist in reducing gyno, nor is it used in PCT, especially with Nolva.

For my PCT, I am going to take Nolva and Clomid, taken as such:

Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20
Clomid - 100/100/50/50

I guess my next question would be, what is the downside of playing it safe, and taking the L-dex during my cycle, in a dose of .50 mg EOD? I guess I'll have to keep searching.

Worse comes to worse, I can take my new breasts overseas and begin a new life as a "lady-boy" in Thailand....

**illwillogical** · 05-31-2009, 07:58 PM

I have read your thread too War. There were some things that I would like to clarify also. Not trying to hijack but I figure this pertains to this thread. When gyno symptoms start to occur what should you do immediately? I am curious because I am going to be running a kickstart with Dbol at 50mg a day, at 30mg Dbol my last cycle I had a slight itchy tingly feeling of the nipples but never no lumps and it stopped, but I am concerned I might have more of a chance of gyno with a higher dose.

**WARMachine** · 05-31-2009, 08:07 PM

^ Well not trying to support a hijack, but you should administer Adex ASAP.

There is a difference between ERSEs developing, and Gyno developing. If gyno has already developed, then begin administering Nolvadex immediately.

If youre still in the itchy, tingling phase, Adex should take care of it...But considering youve had some small symptoms of ERSEs in the past, it might be a good idea to introduce an AI at the beginning of the cycle. Especially if you are over 12%BF.

Its up to you, but id take precautions personally.

**WARMachine** · 05-31-2009, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by WilliamCutting

So what you're trying to say is I should read it again?

Seriously though, I'm reading it now and doing my best to understand everything.

I can appreciate the frustration of the people who've been in this game and on this board for a long time. Dealing with guys like me who don't know sh*t and ask the same questions dozens of times a day gets old, especially when you've taken the time to put together detailed posts covering the exact topic.

But please understand, as much as I like breasts, I don't want a pair of my own, hence the repetitive questions.

I'll read, and re-read, and read again all this info and hopefully I'll be able to sort it out on my own.

No worries bud, thats why i wrote the article. So i had something to link people to.

Originally Posted by WilliamCutting

Ok, from WarMachine's post, I gathered this:

"FOR ON CYCLE ESTROGEN CONTROL"

Adex - .5mgs EOD (For first time users.)

If sides do not decrease much, you may increase the dose to .25mgs ED, or as high as .5mgs ED. I would not exceed 1mgs ED use under any circumstances, at that point, the use of Letro should be looked at.

"FOR GYNO REDUCTION"

Tamox - 40mgs ED (for the first 5 days.)

From there you can drop the dose to 20mgs ED, and if symptoms subside, continue use of 10mgs throughout the remainder of your cycle and into PCT."

So basically the post is saying that L-dex is best used during a the cycle to control estrogen. If it's not used, and gyno symptoms occur, then Tamox is used. I'm assuming that 10 mg is taken until the END of PCT. Correct, but during scheduled PCT time, that dose should be 20mgs again.

The second thing I learned so far is L-dex and Nolva are NOT taken together, as the Nolva will decrease the effects of the L-dex. Correct.

Alright, I think I understand. Basically, I have three things on-hand that I was able to get through my only trusted, reliable source. Clomid, Nolvadex and L-dex.

The only use the L-dex would have to me at this point would be to control estrogen throughout the cycle, however it will do nothing to assist in reducing gyno, nor is it used in PCT, especially with Nolva. Very good bro!

For my PCT, I am going to take Nolva and Clomid, taken as such:

Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20
Clomid - 100/100/50/50

I guess my next question would be, what is the downside of playing it safe, and taking the L-dex during my cycle, in a dose of .50 mg EOD? I guess I'll have to keep searching. Possible loss of gains. But in all honesty, people make too much of reduced estrogen in a cycle and its corolation of losses of gains. And though it is possible, ive never personally experienced such effects.

Worse comes to worse, I can take my new breasts overseas and begin a new life as a "lady-boy" in Thailand....

^

BOLDS

**WilliamCutting** · 05-31-2009, 08:21 PM

Thanks alot for your help. I feel like I'm finally ready. After reading this stuff for weeks (seriously) I'm taking this route:

I'm going to use the L-dex at .50 mg EOD throughout my cycle, ending the day before I start PCT. I figure I'd rather sacrifice some gains to avoid any side effects. Since I'm going into this at 14% BF, why take any chances. Besides, if I do start experiencing problems and have to administer Novladex in the midst of my cycle, wouldn't take take away from my gains anyway? I'd rather be safe than sorry.

For PCT, I'll stick with clomid, 100/100/50/50 and Nolvadex at 40/40/20/20. I have enough Nolva on hand in case I still do have problems, but from what I've read, if I maintain a good diet, combined with the L-dex, and taking into consideration the relatively low doses I'm taking, I should be fine.

**WARMachine** · 06-02-2009, 03:28 AM

Alright well if you really want to run the Adex throughout i suppose its your choice.

Personally, i would hold off but thats just me, i know a LOT of others would say the same thing.

Then again, its ALWAYS better to be safe rather than sorry...

Best of Luck to ya brutha!

Hit me up if you have anymore issues.

-WAR

**WilliamCutting** · 06-03-2009, 12:43 PM

I understand that it might be overkill to use L-dex throughout, considering I have never cycled before and do not know if I am prone to any side effects. I made that decision based on my body fat percentage, which is currently around 14%.

I also took into consideration the idea that if you didn't use an AI while on cycle, you should include one in PCT.

Taken from Swifto I believe when talking about what to include with PCT:

"Its advisable to use an AI if you did not use one while on cycle to control estrogen."

The only AI I was able to get from a trusted source was L-dex. This cannot be taken with Nolvadex , which I will be taking with my PCT. Therefore, I concluded it would be wise to include an AI with my cycle.

I am fine with risking some gains in favor of still having a male chest.

**WARMachine** · 06-03-2009, 05:19 PM

^ Sounds like you have a good grasp! The same thing cannot be said for MANY other new members.

So kudos to you brutha!
Feel free to hit me up anytime you have a question!

-WAR

**WilliamCutting** · 06-03-2009, 06:41 PM

Thank you for taking the time to put together these sticky threads full of great information. For someone like me whose just getting into this, all you guys who take the time to share your knowledge with the beginners who hit up this forum ensure those of us who read, listen and learn will have a safe experience. I learned more in a few days reading this site than I did in months of talking to guys at the gym, friends who cycled, etc.